657 replies to this topic

[NocturnalBeast]

Imperius, on 30 June 2018 - 04:45 PM, said:

Then apparently you didn’t understand my post. Where did I say remove the useless stuff? I’m strictly referring to getting rid of the differences between clan and IS at this point. I really wouldn’t care.

Yes, we mostly agree, although there would still be Clan and IS Mechs, weapons and equipment, both sides would just be able to use whichever gear they want (Omnis would still be Omnis though).

[MrXanthios]

Ed Steele, on 30 June 2018 - 01:37 PM, said:

I care, because I followed MWO and bought my founder's pack because it was supposed to be "A BATTLETECH GAME" (yes I know it does not say that anymore, but that is what I was sold on). Mixed tech is lore accurate in this time period and some of the Houses had Clan Mechs in their arsenals (like the Lyran Alliance). If Mixed tech is in the game, it should just be made harder and more costly for the opposite faction to put on their Mechs. Mixed tech was in MW4, I remember seeing Annihilators with Clan ER-PPCs.

^ Fantastic, can I put cXL on my IS mechs and free up those 3 to 13 tons (comparing LFE 250to400 with XL255 to 400) and also mount cDHS so finally I can have 24 heatsink on my IS 60-65 tonners instead of 17-18?

[Infamati Et Obliterati]

Funny how i hear no mention of the 84 pinpoint alpha from the ANH for a fraction of the heat clan gets. nor do i hear anything about nerfing all the armor bonuses IS mechs get to compensate for the very same alpha damage clan puts out. So all i'm hearing is more nerfs to clan without anything to IS to compensate. Otherwise the current meta wont change one bit. Which is charge with heavy balistic IS mechs and face tank the clan mechs, cause clans can't alpha more than twice without overheating.

if you want to nerf clan damage YET again. Then add some extra armor to clan mechs.

[Tesunie]

I just want to say, DPS only stands for Damage Per Second.

However, when talking about mech builds, you normally have three "damage" classes: DPS, Alpha and Burst.

In this sense, the terms mean something different.
DPS: A DPS build is one built to deal as much damage per second as reasonably possible. They typically require time to stare compared to the other types of builds.

Alpha: These builds typically concentrate on highest damage per trigger pull. These builds desire to shoot and then get back into cover/twist as soon as the weapons are done. Then rest before repeating it again.

Burst: These are builds that are something between the other two. It tries to have a reasonably sized DPS for good heat, but then carries enough additional weapons to occasionally do a reasonably high alpha. It can't alpha for very often, but it uses the alpha damage to supplement it's DPS styled weapons.


So, yes. You CAN break everything down to pure DPS numbers. Every build in the game can be classified as a DPS build, as everything deals damage per second. However, as a damage build concept, DPS means a build designed to deal high amounts of damage over time and is not referring to DPS as damage over time.

[Tesunie]

Infamati Et Obliterati, on 30 June 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

...nor do i hear anything about nerfing all the armor bonuses IS mechs get to compensate for the very same alpha damage clan puts out...


if you want to nerf clan damage YET again. Then add some extra armor to clan mechs.

Once more, I'll send a reminder straight from the first post. A whole paragraph is written just to cover this:
"Before we close this out, there is one bit of feedback that has been brought up in the thread that that we wanted to address. The feedback that if these changes where to go into effect, a reduction in overall damage output on the clan side, the IS side with generous defensive quirks would be too much HP to overcome in standard engagement situations. This is something that we acknowledge may be a point that needs looking into with the changes to Clan weapons. We will be keeping a very close eye on through the initial PTS testing and may introduce changes that address this point in future testing depending on the results we find from this upcoming initial PTS."

[Y E O N N E]

Tesunie, on 30 June 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

So, yes. You CAN break everything down to pure DPS numbers. Every build in the game can be classified as a DPS build, as everything deals damage per second. However, as a damage build concept, DPS means a build designed to deal high amounts of damage over time and is not referring to DPS as damage over time.

con·no·ta·tion
/ˌkänəˈtāSH(ə)n/

noun

• an idea or feeling that a word invokes in addition to its literal or primary meaning.
  
• the abstract meaning or intention of a term, which forms a principle determining which objects or concepts it applies to.

[NocturnalBeast]

MrXanthios, on 30 June 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

^ Fantastic, can I put cXL on my IS mechs and free up those 3 to 13 tons (comparing LFE 250to400 with XL255 to 400) and also mount cDHS so finally I can have 24 heatsink on my IS 60-65 tonners instead of 17-18?

If they allow mixed tech you could, but is should just cost allot more Cbills for IS to buy Clan equipment and vice versa.

[Tesunie]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 June 2018 - 06:12 PM, said:

con·no·ta·tion
/ˌkänəˈtāSH(ə)n/

noun

• an idea or feeling that a word invokes in addition to its literal or primary meaning.
  
• the abstract meaning or intention of a term, which forms a principle determining which objects or concepts it applies to.

From your own previous post:

Yeonne Greene, on 30 June 2018 - 04:16 PM, said:

Double HGauss doesn't really poke, the 'Mechs it runs on are not shaped right or fast enough for that. Instead, it pushes (or receives a push). It's 50 damage every ~5.5 seconds after modest cool-down plus whatever lasers it can sustain, and that puts its DPS into the double-digits easily, and it can keep that up for any reasonable length push window. The double HGauss alone flirt with 10 DPS and are heatless where dakka and SRMs and lasers are not; it can deal out 50 damage at a time indefinitely where most 'Mechs can only do it for 11 seconds.

So, yes, you bet your arse that it's DPS.

From what I can gather, and I have to admit I haven't exactly been following that conversation very well... but it seems like you missed the connotation of what form of DPS was being discussed.

It appears from what little I read (that wasn't spoilered, and was quoted), that Mischief was referring more to DPS as a damage build, rather than DPS as the actual Damage per Second concept.

As I mentioned previously, there is a different between a DPS build and an Alpha build. In that case, DPS is not referring literally to "Damage per Second", but rather to a build ethos that is referring to a build designed instead to deal high DPS, typically by sacrificing alpha damage. The difference between a DPS build and an Alpha build.

Otherwise, every build is a DPS build, and you start to ignore how that damage is applied. In that case, then high DPS weapons (such as an AC2) should have the same role as a high alpha weapon, such as the HLL or Gauss/PPC. However, it is obvious that each of those weapons operate differently and are used differently, because the manner that they apply damage is different.

It's like the difference between a Tank and a DPS build in an MMO. A Tank deals damage as well, which can be read as DPS, but that doesn't make a Tank build a DPS build. Same concept here.

[Tesunie]

Ed Steele, on 30 June 2018 - 06:30 PM, said:

If they allow mixed tech you could, but is should just cost allot more Cbills for IS to buy Clan equipment and vice versa.

Q: How would you determine that?

We have inventories in this game. If I'm able to place a CXL engine into my IS mech... how would it cost me more to do so? I don't see how this concept could work.

Also, I think I'm going to have to disagree with this concept. It would just have the factions lose their flavor and identity. Best I can see is for FP to have it so every drop deck could contain a single cross faction mech (or something). Still don't think it would work out, but it would represent captured/salvaged mechs from either side and using it.


Edit: Minor change. Did a bit of a typo.

Edited by Tesunie, 30 June 2018 - 06:57 PM.

[Imperius]

Tesunie, on 30 June 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

Q: How would you determine that?

We have inventories in this game. If I'm able to place a CXL engine into my IS mech... how would it cost me more to do so? I don't see how this concept could work.

Also, I think I'm going to have to disagree with this concept. It would just have the factions lose their flavor and identity. Best I can see is for FP to have it so every drop deck could contain a single cross faction mech (or something). Still don't think it would work out, but it would represent captured/salvaged mechs from either side and using it.


Edit: Minor change. Did a bit of a typo.

What are you even talking about?

-There are no clans or factions

-Nothing in this game has any purpose

-The reason everyone plays quick play is because it’s the fastest c-bill per hour mode. With no commitment required.

-It’s a F2P, majority of new players are farming c-bills. So anything with low payouts will never take off. Old players or whales have everything and nothing to do because there is no endgame.

-Losing in this game doesn’t pay well. That’s the majority of the issues. People might not care about winning all the time if it didn’t pay so much more.

Seriously there is no lore, little immersion, stale game modes, bad maps, invisible walls everywhere, participatory ranking, bad match making, and a bad new user experience.

At this point they could just focus on getting the game balanced by removing these walls they put up themselves to appease who? Who is there audience? Literally each few months it changes, and now it’s suffering an identity crises.

The hard decisions are never made but the bad ones like adding Gauss recoil keep getting pushed through. The issue is lasers. Add gauss to the ghost heat bar like you did for PPC’s! If you’re going to make bad balance changes at least be consistently bad. Don’t try to show up the last bad decision.

Allowing all mechs to equip everything and removing useless things from the game like weapons that overlap but obviously keeping the superior versions would be a breath of fresh air.

It’s sad 8v8 fell though because it was legitimately spammed by idiots saying add 64x64 and muh afk/disconnects.

Edited by Imperius, 30 June 2018 - 08:12 PM.

[Tesunie]

Imperius, on 30 June 2018 - 08:02 PM, said:

What are you even talking about?

-There are no clans or factions

-Nothing in this game has any purpose

-The reason everyone plays quick play is because it’s the fastest c-bill per hour mode. With no commitment required.

-It’s a F2P, majority of new players are farming c-bills. So anything with low payouts will never take off. Old players or whales have everything and nothing to do because there is no endgame.

-Losing in this game doesn’t pay well. That’s the majority of the issues. People might not care about winning all the time if it didn’t pay so much more.

Seriously there is no lore, little immersion, stale game modes, bad maps, invisible walls everywhere, participatory ranking, bad match making, and a bad new user experience.

At this point they could just focus on getting the game balanced by removing these walls they put up themselves to appease who? Who is there audience? Literally each few months it changes, and now it’s suffering an identity crises.

The hard decisions are never made but the bad ones like adding Gauss recoil keep getting pushed through. The issue is lasers. Add gauss to the ghost heat bar like you did for PPC’s! If you’re going to make bad balance changes at least be consistently bad. Don’t try to show up the last bad decision.

Allowing all mechs to equip everything and removing useless things from the game like weapons that overlap but obviously keeping the superior versions would be a breath of fresh air.

It’s sad 8v8 fell though because it was legitimately spammed by idiots saying add 64x64 and muh afk/disconnects.

- There are factions. IS and Clan. Not to mention the individual houses/clans. Between the two, the individual houses/clans are irrelevant. However, Clan and IS base faction do exist. There is a tech difference currently in the game that gives each faction a bit difference of play style, not to mention the game mode called Faction Play. Rather more people play it or not, it does exist and in there the faction you choose does make a difference.

- It's a game. Most games don't have a purpose besides to be entertaining and fun. As these are subjective terms, maybe this game offers you nothing, but I have fun with it. Could it use more? Sure. No argument there. Could certainly use something more grasping and engaging. FP could use more depth.

- No argument about QP. No matter what though, even if FP was the most engaging and in depth portion of the game, most likely QP would probably still remain the most populous. Quick, easy, no commitment matches tend to be the preferred game mode for many people.

- Don't know where you are going here, as you've drifted way off from "this game has no factions"... Refer to comment 2 about end game content.

- That's a different topic that doesn't involve factions nor weapon damage. People want the game to reward "good and skillful" play. I can't disagree with them, but it has been mentioned that losses seem a bit too punishing. However, make losses to rewarding and you'll have AFK farmers coming back up again (or minimal effort players).


I think you are under the false impression that a game will be perfect. Could there be improvements? Absolutely.

I will say, if the game was as you seem to wish, I would have a hard time keeping interest in it. It would cease to be Battletech to me, and becomes "some giant stompy robot game with Battletech thrown in to catch fans" game. I just don't think this would be a good move for the game. I'm sure I am not alone as well here.

As this has drifted away from weapon balance and/or faction's existence, I think I'm just going to stop there.

[Marius Evander]

Holy 30 pages batman ! .... Please refer to Post 2 Page 13 and stop typing.

[Shaggath]

Tesunie, on 30 June 2018 - 08:38 PM, said:

- There are factions. IS and Clan. Not to mention the individual houses/clans. Between the two, the individual houses/clans are irrelevant. However, Clan and IS base faction do exist. There is a tech difference currently in the game that gives each faction a bit difference of play style, not to mention the game mode called Faction Play. Rather more people play it or not, it does exist and in there the faction you choose does make a difference.

- It's a game. Most games don't have a purpose besides to be entertaining and fun. As these are subjective terms, maybe this game offers you nothing, but I have fun with it. Could it use more? Sure. No argument there. Could certainly use something more grasping and engaging. FP could use more depth.

- No argument about QP. No matter what though, even if FP was the most engaging and in depth portion of the game, most likely QP would probably still remain the most populous. Quick, easy, no commitment matches tend to be the preferred game mode for many people.

- Don't know where you are going here, as you've drifted way off from "this game has no factions"... Refer to comment 2 about end game content.

- That's a different topic that doesn't involve factions nor weapon damage. People want the game to reward "good and skillful" play. I can't disagree with them, but it has been mentioned that losses seem a bit too punishing. However, make losses to rewarding and you'll have AFK farmers coming back up again (or minimal effort players).


I think you are under the false impression that a game will be perfect. Could there be improvements? Absolutely.

I will say, if the game was as you seem to wish, I would have a hard time keeping interest in it. It would cease to be Battletech to me, and becomes "some giant stompy robot game with Battletech thrown in to catch fans" game. I just don't think this would be a good move for the game. I'm sure I am not alone as well here.

As this has drifted away from weapon balance and/or faction's existence, I think I'm just going to stop there.

We have rac in game IS introduce rac in 3100 and at this time they already have mixed-tech, IS mech with clan engine etc...
Search for mixed-tech on Sarna and see by yourself.
When something is salvage he can be use to understand tech.
Clan have her own tech before they encounter IS.

Edited by Shaggath, 01 July 2018 - 03:00 AM.

[Vesper11]

Shaggath, on 01 July 2018 - 02:53 AM, said:

We have rac in game IS introduce rac in 3100 and at this time they already have mixed-tech, IS mech with clan engine etc...
Search for mixed-tech on Sarna and see by yourself.
When something is salvage he can be use to understand tech.
Clan have her own tech before they encounter IS.

Mix tech so people will play some mechs even less because other faction has better mech? Everyone the same the game, thanks but no. It will also make asymmetrical balance impossible as people will simply pick the best and drop the rest.

[Tom Sawyer]

[Mcgral18]

Heretron, on 27 June 2018 - 04:00 AM, said:

After reading the initial post I instantly thought about adapting my playstyle to the changes that might come. Not about my playstyle being KILLED.
This even makes no sense. It's like: "Hell, there's a structure blocking my line of fire. This game is unplayable!" Go around, change your position, ADAPT! But massive rant seems to be meta nowadays, no matter what changes are being suggested.

Obviously you don't play very often
You know that invisible terrain blocks shots on pretty much every map?
An invisible structure which doesn't block LoS, but does block Line of Fire

Adapting playstyle != removing play styles from the game, which PGI has continuously been doing

JigglyMoobs, on 27 June 2018 - 07:42 AM, said:

All of your nerfs are RUINING THE GAME.

STOP.

BUFF MOBILITY AND OTHER LASER COUNTERS.

You should worry about balance when your game is actually fun. You've nerfed the game to the point where it's not fun any more. FIX FUN FIRST.

Sorry, our spreadsheets indicated that FUN was overperforming, and had to be adjusted

Agent of Change, on 27 June 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

That's fine too, reward skill on the field more than skill in the mech bay.

...wat

Edited by Mcgral18, 01 July 2018 - 09:30 AM.

[Imperius]

It’s the Brown Sea /thread

I really didn’t expect many here to understand /sarcasm also know as /s

TL;DR
Nothing has identity in the game.


You can argue all day until your blue in the face there are clans and IS and I’ll still laugh and shake my head. Literally just a joke at this point. Neither group has an actual identity. Just some can use certain weapons labeled clan and others can’t. We come out the same dropships. We fight on the same teams. We fight over nothing. Literally the forums have more content than the game.

So if you’re gonna keep the game the shell that it is. Then it’s time to do some housecleaning and homogenize some things and be done with this back and fourth. Literally get tired of well the IS can‘t build that mech and use that playstyle so we took it out excuse!

Edited by Imperius, 01 July 2018 - 01:01 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Imperius, on 01 July 2018 - 01:00 PM, said:

It’s the Brown Sea /thread

I really didn’t expect many here to understand /sarcasm also know as /s

While I mostly agree with you, showing us your Reddit "elitism" discredits you.

[Andi Nagasia]

Shaggath, on 01 July 2018 - 02:53 AM, said:

We have rac in game IS introduce rac in 3100 and at this time they already have mixed-tech, IS mech with clan engine etc...
Search for mixed-tech on Sarna and see by yourself.
When something is salvage he can be use to understand tech.
Clan have her own tech before they encounter IS.

um RACs were Standard Tech by 3062, so they couldnt really be introduced 38 years later,
we are currently in the year 3068, so both RAC2/5 are very much in timeline for us,

also when searching for [Mixed Tech] on Sarna, the first item in the search is the Jackalope,
which has a production date of 3134, most of what else appears is mostly mechs around that time,
the earlyest Mix-Tech mech is the Cephalus, which has a production date of 3072, only 4 years away,

why do i bring up standard tech and production dates?
MWO currently has only Standard Tech, no Advanced or Experimental Tech,
im not aware of any Standardized Mixed Tech before the Cephalus in 3072,

[NocturnalBeast]

Andi Nagasia, on 01 July 2018 - 01:49 PM, said:

um RACs were Standard Tech by 3062, so they couldnt really be introduced 38 years later,
we are currently in the year 3068, so both RAC2/5 are very much in timeline for us,

also when searching for [Mixed Tech] on Sarna, the first item in the search is the Jackalope,
which has a production date of 3134, most of what else appears is mostly mechs around that time,
the earlyest Mix-Tech mech is the Cephalus, which has a production date of 3072, only 4 years away,

why do i bring up standard tech and production dates?
MWO currently has only Standard Tech, no Advanced or Experimental Tech,
im not aware of any Standardized Mixed Tech before the Cephalus in 3072,

PGI could just advace the timeline again, they have done it twice already. Yes, if they advance to the next era then they would need to add the Word of Blake and then change the factions to IS + Clans vs WOB.