518 replies to this topic

[Vesper11]

Actually that makes me think, does PGI even read anything? They pop in their "discussion threads", say that they "pay attention" and then we get the most stupid of all "NERF ALL CLAN LASERS" **** that is nowhere close to what the discussion was about.

[The Lighthouse]

I mean, people are keep saying mods, but unless the basic game is good enough and/or above acceptable level, there won't be many mods anyway.

Like, look at Master of Orion remake; despite official support, there are like 2 actual mods (ignore all of trashes from workshop) for the game. Even if you make good modding support, unless the base game itself is decent enough, there won't be enough people to make good mods.

And with how PGI has been handling game balance, I have no choice but put big, gigantic question mark on this issue. Not to mention procedural map generation is really a double-edged sword, as we can witness from how HBS Battletech went. No matter how good generation is, there is always a very high chance the game an get repetitive and boring; literally there is little to do on Battletech as soon as you finish the main campaign, for example.

[MovinTarget]

Okay, had a thought (que groans)...

These changes are going on the PTS and are supposed to the first round, right? Maybe they are heavy handed to so that when less heavy handed changes are put out, they'll seem more reasonable...

I am not advocating this approach (heck this what they are doing i would be technically undermining it), but its a thought...

[MiZia]

MovinTarget, on 09 July 2018 - 01:27 AM, said:

Okay, had a thought (que groans)...

These changes are going on the PTS and are supposed to the first round, right? Maybe they are heavy handed to so that when less heavy handed changes are put out, they'll seem more reasonable...

I am not advocating this approach (heck this what they are doing i would be technically undermining it), but its a thought...

But still....DPH < 1 is BullS... to begin with... and for what? 50 m more range and .25 dmg on medium Laser?
Even if the numbers will be tweaked its a Brainless decision.

[MovinTarget]

Again, not saying I agree with the numbers, but as a programmer, i have some experience with using misdirection to test something unspoken...

[Nero7]

Hello, I played your game a lot in 2016 and have come back some months ago. I invested yet another 70$ into your game because its so good and fun.


I was thinking about buying the Blood Asp for 20$.


Now I read this and seriously I can not tell you how seriously disturbing and wrong this all is. First of all you should be ashamed of yourself for balancing a game for over 4 years. One would think you'd have achieved balance by now. I understand you add new weapons, fine then balance the new weapons. There are quirks for mechs, use them to balance individual mechs.

But don't **** over all the mechs I bought with **** like this.

Shameful display.

Very angry.

This could possibly make me stop playing and I played this game on a daily basis again for at least 4 hours a day.



I understand a test run has to have more drastic changes than the patch that comes from this later on, but this is all COMPLETELY wrong and for many weapons in the wrong direction as well.

I was already at breaking point when you released the kodiak and it was the most OP thing ever then when it came for MC and later on for cbills you nerfed it like crazy. Its still strong, its what its supposed to be.

Don't pretend like you care about balance. You don't. You love to give people overpowered toys and then nerf them once the event is over. So therefore there's again no need to **** on my leg.

I sincerely hope you get the message. Hope you have a nice day regardless.
Also please don't listen too much to the community, they will complain no matter what.
But if you want to keep me as a playing and buying customer then you better cut it out with the ****.

The lasers are fine.

[Pumpkin Spice Templar]

Note: I'm new to the game. Only about 300 hours. Also, I read all comments before posting.

So the biggest problem MWO has, from my perspective, is the original learning curve when you first start playing. The beauty of the game is also its biggest challenge: the massive amount of choice for the customization of your battle mechs and finding the balance in the current state of Clan vs inner sphere. Now I am about 40 mechs into this game, 5 Clan and 35 inner sphere. I find that I play Inner sphere more often, because quite frankly, Clan mechs are just harder to play. They are a lot softer and resemble glass Cannon / Caster types from other games. Conversely, inner sphere mechs are like the warrior / Barbarian classes. Inner sphere mechs have a lower damage output in general but they have a higher durability and they are more forgiving for mistakes / poor movement and maneuver choices. Only now am I starting to get the hang of certain Clan mechs for very limited roles for me, and I find that at least in my experience, for the Clans you really have to know exactly what you are doing have a really fine tuned build. I'm not saying that inner sphere mechs are super easy, but as a new player they have been much more forgiving and easier to learn. This is especially true because of how many ways you could build them. Conversely, with the Clans, once again I would like to point out that there are very limited ways to make them effective and viable during a match. Because of my own a learning curve experience, I am just now beginning to play some Clan mechs effectively. In my personal opinion, the balance is almost perfect as it is, and needs no change.

If anything, PGI would do well to try and make the game more user-friendly for new players, and to do a better job of explaining how the Metal Works and the roles of each Mech and faction in the grand scheme of things. It seems to me like they believe that the issue with player retention is that the game is unbalanced, but the reality is that the game is simply incredibly hard to learn and I find that most of my friends to whom I try to introduce the game end up quitting due to the difficulty of learning. The reason I have not quit personally, is because the series what is very near and dear to my heart as I played MechWarrior4 as a small child, and I am very grateful that somebody is keeping the series alive.

Now I understand that PGI needs to make money to keep the game running. I understand that they might feel that making the Clans, who, when played correctly, can be devastating on the battlefield; making them weaker might seem necessary to take and retain more new players. But this is the wrong way to approach the problem.
My personal recommendation is for them to focus harder on making the game more accessible. I know I'm going out on a limb here and I'm starting to get away from the current issue at hand, but I would highly suggest an app on the Google Play store or the Apple Store. I'm thinking an app that will help introduce new players to the mechanics of the game, something like that time based RPG like most other mobile games, and a game that would have passive benefits to their mwo account, like Supply caches. Or occasionally let them play one of those spin wheel games and some of the prizes can be a new small mechs, or hanger slots, or MC. I highly recommend doing something of this sort, as PGI needs to focus more on injecting new players and New Life blood into the game, rather than doing what they are doing now: alienating their loyal fan base, that is quite literally keeping them alive.

I personally have spent roughly $350 on this game. I don't make much, but to me it was worth it to support the team keeping my childhood game alive.

And finally, the last thing I want to ask the community in generally is, is there any way for the free market to fix this problem? And by that I mean other than simply letting this game die because they've alienated their entire player base, which is what they are risking right now. I mean, is PGI the only company that is allowed to use the MechWarrior brand? I know that BattleTech is run by a different Studio, so I guess that answers my question already, but I what I really am asking is if there is some sort of competitor mechanism that might force either this came to get his stuff together, or allow for a new company to take over at do a better job?

[The Lighthouse]

Xanzikron, on 09 July 2018 - 02:51 AM, said:

Note: I'm new to the game. Only about 300 hours. Also, I read all comments before posting.

So the biggest problem MWO has, from my perspective, is the original learning curve when you first start playing. The beauty of the game is also its biggest challenge: the massive amount of choice for the customization of your battle mechs and finding the balance in the current state of Clan vs inner sphere. Now I am about 40 mechs into this game, 5 Clan and 35 inner sphere. I find that I play Inner sphere more often, because quite frankly, Clan mechs are just harder to play. They are a lot softer and resemble glass Cannon / Caster types from other games. Conversely, inner sphere mechs are like the warrior / Barbarian classes. Inner sphere mechs have a lower damage output in general but they have a higher durability and they are more forgiving for mistakes / poor movement and maneuver choices. Only now am I starting to get the hang of certain Clan mechs for very limited roles for me, and I find that at least in my experience, for the Clans you really have to know exactly what you are doing have a really fine tuned build. I'm not saying that inner sphere mechs are super easy, but as a new player they have been much more forgiving and easier to learn. This is especially true because of how many ways you could build them. Conversely, with the Clans, once again I would like to point out that there are very limited ways to make them effective and viable during a match. Because of my own a learning curve experience, I am just now beginning to play some Clan mechs effectively. In my personal opinion, the balance is almost perfect as it is, and needs no change.

If anything, PGI would do well to try and make the game more user-friendly for new players, and to do a better job of explaining how the Metal Works and the roles of each Mech and faction in the grand scheme of things. It seems to me like they believe that the issue with player retention is that the game is unbalanced, but the reality is that the game is simply incredibly hard to learn and I find that most of my friends to whom I try to introduce the game end up quitting due to the difficulty of learning. The reason I have not quit personally, is because the series what is very near and dear to my heart as I played MechWarrior4 as a small child, and I am very grateful that somebody is keeping the series alive.

Now I understand that PGI needs to make money to keep the game running. I understand that they might feel that making the Clans, who, when played correctly, can be devastating on the battlefield; making them weaker might seem necessary to take and retain more new players. But this is the wrong way to approach the problem.
My personal recommendation is for them to focus harder on making the game more accessible. I know I'm going out on a limb here and I'm starting to get away from the current issue at hand, but I would highly suggest an app on the Google Play store or the Apple Store. I'm thinking an app that will help introduce new players to the mechanics of the game, something like that time based RPG like most other mobile games, and a game that would have passive benefits to their mwo account, like Supply caches. Or occasionally let them play one of those spin wheel games and some of the prizes can be a new small mechs, or hanger slots, or MC. I highly recommend doing something of this sort, as PGI needs to focus more on injecting new players and New Life blood into the game, rather than doing what they are doing now: alienating their loyal fan base, that is quite literally keeping them alive.

I personally have spent roughly $350 on this game. I don't make much, but to me it was worth it to support the team keeping my childhood game alive.

And finally, the last thing I want to ask the community in generally is, is there any way for the free market to fix this problem? And by that I mean other than simply letting this game die because they've alienated their entire player base, which is what they are risking right now. I mean, is PGI the only company that is allowed to use the MechWarrior brand? I know that BattleTech is run by a different Studio, so I guess that answers my question already, but I what I really am asking is if there is some sort of competitor mechanism that might force either this came to get his stuff together, or allow for a new company to take over at do a better job?

I mean, thing is, PGI people think they are closing the gap between casuals and hardcore players by increasing TTK, but reality is that gap almost always increases if you increase TTK for FPS games.

Essentially, after 5 years, PGI does not understand very basic gameplay balance mechanics such as TTK. At this point, sadly a random FPS guru from youtube would know about balance better than PGI themselves.

And the fact that pretty much all of balance methods provided by PGI are incredibly bad in terms of managing casuals vs hardcore players. Look...


1) Ghost Heat.
2) Gauss Charge.
3) aim shakes from Heavy Gauss and soon Clan Gauss.


Do you know what they have in common? They are ALL gotchas. It means that at first they are rather very hard to understand and difficult to adapt, but once you 'get it', they become incredibly easy that they are completely ineffective for anyone who became good at this game.

These gotchas created massive gap between casuals (who would be almost never going to 'get it') and top players (who 'got it' those silly mechanics), so big that the whole perspectives of casuals and top players are utterly alien to each other.

This is why I kept saying that whole Ghost Heat should be removed, and problematic weapons should just get increased cooldowns if needed.

(this game is nearing end-of-life thus this argument is pretty pointless at this point though)



And 'free market' (off-topic, 'free market' is oxymoron. Without rules, there is no market.) solution? We do not have such solution, but we do have Mechwarrior: Living Legends which is a mod of Crysis.
However, if you play that mod, it is not everyone's cup of tea, particularly the fact that MW: LL does not have any mech customization; there is no mechlab.


That said, Battletech is like super niche IP. Almost no one knows about MechWarrior these days, let alone Battletech. The number of HBS Battletech owners that was leaked recently does not put much confidence.

I made peace a long time ago. If PGI keeps failing and eventually wither away (though Canada govt's crazy subsides will probably float this company for a very long time), well, that sucks but it's time to move on. Perhaps Mechwarrior/Battletech may some day get actual competent developers it deserves. But for now, all I can do is dancing, dancing and dancing.

[Levenstein_]

at first i was expecting some decent news, not just a straight up burial...

clan laser vomit is just straight up dead with what i read... ERLLs having more heat than the damage they deal, ERMLs nerfed 12 feet down because 6 feet isn't enough for the massive blow it got... even the small lasers get hit...

and this is just because of a few mechs capable of boating that much fire power, blood-asp (probably) and the death strike being the primary suspects

[Daurock]

Exkommuniziert, on 09 July 2018 - 05:13 AM, said:

at first i was expecting some decent news, not just a straight up burial...

clan laser vomit is just straight up dead with what i read... ERLLs having more heat than the damage they deal, ERMLs nerfed 12 feet down because 6 feet isn't enough for the massive blow it got... even the small lasers get hit...

and this is just because of a few mechs capable of boating that much fire power, blood-asp (probably) and the death strike being the primary suspects

This is Hyperbole. The mech I have that is hardest hit by the proposed changes, (My 2xHLL+4xERML, 25 DHS Vomit Hellbringer) Will still bring Superior Sustained DPS, and Superior Alpha when compared to my closest IS equilavent, a 3LL+4ERML, 19 DHS Grasshopper. Plus it still has ECM, and runs marginally faster. The Clan advantages in DHS and XL engines are still very real.

To be fair, the Damage / Tic does move from about the same, to notably worse than said grasshopper, but that's pretty easily fixable with a simple burn time change. (Moving the HLL from 1.55s to 1.3s, and a similar change to the ERML for example, pretty much gets the damage/tic numbers of the two builds on an equal level) After that, we can get to removing the God-Quirks found on many IS mechs, and you might have an actual reason to buff some of the non-meta clan mechs.

Bottom line, I feel like the Changes, while hopefully not finished, (I'd like to see a burn time buff to most of these proposed lasers to get them on the same damage/tic level as most IS lasers) are much closer to being sensible than most realize. Honesty, this assumes that we'll be Some reductions in some IS quirks, but since a quirk removal for many IS mechs has been a goal for PGI for quite a while, i feel this is a relatively safe assumption.

Edited by Daurock, 09 July 2018 - 06:07 AM.

[Vesper11]

Clan laser vomit meta my ***, if clan had something for medium range other than ****** ATMs that can easily be hard-countered then you could call it OP because everyone uses it but everyone uses lasers because clan needs them as other weapons are too heavy for many mechs or unviable because lolclanbrawling. And really, if brawling was back then those boogeyman ovens would be hurt the most and there would be no need to nerf them. Meanwhile dual HGR mechs can oneshot lights and almost kill some meds and people wonder why others don't want to brawl.

Daurock, on 09 July 2018 - 05:55 AM, said:

This is Hyperbole. The mech I have that is hardest hit by the proposed changes, (My 2xHLL+4xERML, 25 DHS Vomit Hellbringer) Will still bring Superior Sustained DPS, and Superior Alpha when compared to my closest IS equilavent, a 3LL+4ERML, 19 DHS Grasshopper. Plus it still has ECM, and runs marginally faster. The Clan advantages in DHS and XL engines are still very real.

To be fair, the Damage / Tic does move from about the same, to notably worse than said grasshopper, but that's pretty easily fixable with a simple burn time change. (Moving the HLL from 1.55s to 1.3s, and a similar change to the ERML for example, pretty much gets the damage/tic numbers of the two builds on an equal level) After that, we can get to removing the God-Quirks found on many IS mechs, and you might have an actual reason to buff some of the non-meta clan mechs.

Bottom line, I feel like the Changes, while hopefully not finished, (I'd like to see a burn time buff to most of these proposed lasers to get them on the same damage/tic level as most IS lasers) are much closer to being sensible than most realize. Honesty, this assumes that we'll be Some reductions in some IS quirks, but since a quirk removal for many IS mechs has been a goal for PGI for quite a while, i feel this is a relatively safe assumption.

You should ask PGI to buff non-small IS lasers if you want to compare laser grasshumper to clan mechs. LL has 0.43 DPS per ton without extra DHS, which is only slightly higher than some ballistics and lower than any missile systems, going laser vomit on IS is shooting itself in the leg.
Yes, let's make is and clan weapons the same, this way balancing won't be an issue and "God-Quirks" that add diversity can be removed too! That's exactly the balance beats the fun part that kills stupid games (like PoE1).

Edited by Vesper11, 09 July 2018 - 06:30 AM.

[Ruediger Steiner]

Xanzikron, on 09 July 2018 - 02:51 AM, said:

So the biggest problem MWO has, from my perspective ...

I nodded to every single word of your post.
You Sir, have gained more knowledge of MWO in 300 hours than PGI has in 5 years or ever will.
Thank you!

And now listen up PGI. Here we are.
Experienced players, telling you there is no need to nerf Clan lasers.
IS players, telling you there is no need to nerf Clan lasers.
New players, telling you there is no need to nerf Clan lasers.
How will you react? Like Merkel? Not giving a ****, cause "you know better". Or will you listen, rethink and start over?

[Kuaron]

Ugh…
I am an IS loyalist, but… PLEASE DON’T MAKE BOTH SIDES THE SAME!
Having Clans having more dmg and more heat to balance it, was the better call.
Give the Standard Engine a structure buff instead, Clans don’t use it anyway and if they do, they give up on their main advantage (Clan XL).

I appreciate the recoil mechanic getting some love, though!
Please more of it.
You can even replace the charge-up with recoil, if you ask me, and the extensive heat of large ballistics.

[KingCobra]

In 5 years I have seen good things PGI has done and horrific things PGI has done to MWO and its player base weapons balance is fine if it help players have more fun per battle but as with all things PGI they overlook the obvious reason why a nerf or buff should be done.

The goal of PGI is to make money but to do that you need a happy player base playing a good game that you feel rewarded from and MWO has become the one thing I personally never wanted to see it become a graveyard of uninstalled players because we have very few new players a year like in maybe 100 that stay play and pay into this game.

This is because of bad management of TTK-(its to short) BALANCE(of weapons and armor on the mech)which removing the boating of weapons and removal of the alpha shot mechanism is long over due for new player retention in QP and FP. Buffing and Nerfing weapons is not the solution to fixing MWO for long term player retention and just plain fun in all game modes besides comp play.

PGI should concentrate more on the aspects in MWO that will keep it alive not drive away the remaining player base as in a Social lobby system that has been wanted for 5 years segregation of new players VS Top Tier players until trained in even the most basic skills and loadouts.

The list goes on and on ,on these forums PGI says (IM HERE IM LISTING) but if that is so why is MWO in such a decline this last year and Solaris in ruins because of a terrible MM system that promoted no fun and high imbalance?

[Daurock]

Vesper11, on 09 July 2018 - 06:29 AM, said:

Clan laser vomit meta my ***, if clan had something for medium range other than ****** ATMs that can easily be hard-countered then you could call it OP because everyone uses it but everyone uses lasers because clan needs them as other weapons are too heavy for many mechs or unviable because lolclanbrawling. And really, if brawling was back then those boogeyman ovens would be hurt the most and there would be no need to nerf them. Meanwhile dual HGR mechs can oneshot lights and almost kill some meds and people wonder why others don't want to brawl.

IS mediums and lights have been making do with SRMs, Lasers nearly as bad as the proposed ones, fewer sinks, often XL vulnerability, and many have still been very successful. Believe it or not, IS Mediums can't mount many Medium/Long range weapons either. The only thing the chassis (sometimes) have over their Clan counterparts are Quirks and agility.
Up to this point, the power provided by the current clan lasers has been so strong that Clan mechs haven't needed those things to be successful. Remove that crutch, and you pave the way for a LOT of clan mechs to be buffed. In the bigger picture, clan lasers have pigeon holed many clan mechs, simply by being the best ton for ton weaponry in the game, often by a significant margin.

You're absolutely right that for many clan medium and light mechs, (and some of the heavies for that matter) it's Lasers or bust. In my view, that's a bad thing. In my opinion, (and at least from my observations, one shared with the developers) the way you diversify clan-side mech builds is a two step process - first, bringing the lasers to a level where it's no longer a no-brainer to take them over other weaponry for so many mechs. Second, finding the chassis that under-perform after those changes, and bring them up to a usable level. We're currently at step 1. Whether you believe they'll actually progress to step 2 is up to you, but i'm inclined to think that they will. (Though i would at least like to hear it.)

Vesper11, on 09 July 2018 - 06:29 AM, said:

You should ask PGI to buff non-small IS lasers if you want to compare laser grasshumper to clan mechs. LL has 0.43 DPS per ton without extra DHS, which is only slightly higher than some ballistics and lower than any missile systems, going laser vomit on IS is shooting itself in the leg.

The IS side is Much more diverse today, in no small part because the IS Lasers have competitive alternatives. I may see few pure IS Laser vomits, but I still see plenty of IS Lasers of all varieties around. (except maybe the IS small class lasers, which actually do probably need a buff.) The Weapons are not Bad - They simply are not hands down better than other similarly sized IS options, they way it is on the clan side. If IS lasers got buffed to the level of clan lasers, you'd (just like clan) find everyone not driving an assault gravitate towards LL/ML Spam. That's not a real solution.

Edited by Daurock, 09 July 2018 - 08:06 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Xanzikron, on 09 July 2018 - 02:51 AM, said:

And finally, the last thing I want to ask the community in generally is, is there any way for the free market to fix this problem? And by that I mean other than simply letting this game die because they've alienated their entire player base, which is what they are risking right now. I mean, is PGI the only company that is allowed to use the MechWarrior brand? I know that BattleTech is run by a different Studio, so I guess that answers my question already, but I what I really am asking is if there is some sort of competitor mechanism that might force either this came to get his stuff together, or allow for a new company to take over at do a better job?

PGI holds the exclusive license from Microsoft for this IP, and my understanding is that HBS has a sub-license for the BT aspect. In any case, no there is no competitive option for an alternative PvP experience in this IP (other than the LL but that is frankly a completely different game play experience even if it is PvP). In short, until MS and/or PGI decides to move on to other things and there is another company willing to pick up the reputational pieces of this mess (without Alex’s art assets that are owned by PGI presumably) this, this -lets nerf everything until there is nothing- game, is the only game in town.

[Quandoo]

WTF is this patch about? IS mechs are already better if you are good at positioning.
Less heat, less duration are WAY SUPERIOR to range. Most of the time you wont need the higher range anyway. And if you do, you are probably the usless sniper sitting behind.

Less duration = better pinpoint damage. And pinpoint is superior to all kind of spread damage.
500dmg with AC guns means 2-3 kills but 500dmg with streaks means a cored mech.

Better go ahead and balance spread damage against pinpoint.
And fix PPCs finally. Heat / damage ratio and projectile size makes those weapons useless.

Edited by Quandoo, 09 July 2018 - 08:15 AM.

[Dran Dragore]

i would love to see any reactions from PGI to this

[HassonAssassin]

Do you know what would reduce the effectiveness of Laser Vomit?


LASER REFLECTIVE ARMOUR, Which is currently Period correct for the timeline of 3062+ Steiner-Davion Civil War.

Armour mechanics we might never see aside, I believe most of us find the balance in the game to be just right. If anything introducing small buffs to lesser Ballistic and Streak weaponry could benefit mix-type weapon game play.

In regards to the boogeyman, I haven't run across a build that was unfavorably high DPS (Unless you count Two Dual H-Gauss Heavies as the last men standing against a few mediums and lights, which to be fair you need to aim and land a shot) If there are so called Extreme DPS builds they can't fire more than once, they're slow and in the back of the pack where they're likely loading front armour and not worrying about their backs which get chewed open by lights, which was the whole point of most of this years Mech Releases.

I understand this is PTS and you guys are trying to bridge a gap, but it's the other things you're forgetting that bridge that gap too.

Tweak Engine and mobility for IS to engage a full frontal of alpha damage, because you SURVIVE a player like that by twisting and hoping to a Smoke Jaguar Jungle Deity that they scrape an arm you don't need or JUST strip a torso so you can use those feet to run away. I can't tell you how many times effective strategy works AGAINST 'Meta'.

As an experienced player, there are other focuses on game play that can be looked at. Somewhat smaller maps, increasing the importance of having your team stick with assaults with an incentive, Rewarding Spotting bonuses and "Target Calls" tweaking game modes so some of them aren't JUST smash 'em in around the juice stain.

I will be a part of this PTS and I will give my honest opinion of how I feel this works when the time comes to offer my experience in this game. I don't feel the need to express my lack of interest, threaten to not buy any more 'mechs or contribute to this niche and amazing community of giant stompy robot fans.

Love you guys and PGI, see you on the battlefield.

[Bud Crue]

Dran Dragore, on 09 July 2018 - 08:14 AM, said:

i would love to see any reactions from PGI to this

PGI: We’ve gotten a lot of good feed back on the proposed balance PTS. In light of that, we are proposing the following changes for when the PTS is active:

Weapon Recoil added to all weapons.

Clan and IS Lasers

ER-Small Laser
- Damage reduced to 1

ER-Medium Laser
- Damage reduced to 3

ER- Large Laser
- Damage reduced to 5

Medium Pulse laser
- Damage reduced to 4

Large Pulse laser
- Damage reduced to 6

All weapons will also be subject to ghost heat if more than 1 of any type is fired.

We appreciate your input and given the overwhelming feedback from players desiring better overall balance we feel th above changes are a good start to achieving that.


-The above is parody and not an attempt at posing as PGI staff-

Edited by Bud Crue, 09 July 2018 - 08:33 AM.