518 replies to this topic

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Arkhangel, on 09 July 2018 - 11:53 PM, said:

Pretty brave (and possibly stupid) of you to mention you own a Khan Mech. lot of people I know shoot those on principal, regardless of side, as they're a reminder of when PGI was actually far WORSE than now.

Your subtext is noted. "You should be ashamed to have paid $500 dollars to PGI for a skin and a Warhawk Pack." Well I'm not. The social contract you are trying to enforce here doesn't mean anything to me. I was sitting on two Food Lion paychecks and decided it was worth spending on a meme. It was my choice and I didn't buy some kind of an in-game advantage. Don't owe you a further explanation.

And unfortunately, you'd be surprised. Nobody on my team shoots at me, nobody calls me out (I think it's happened once and five times respectively in a total of 130+ match hours, and nobody has gone for a kill). Fact is people at the top level of play don't shoot at their teammates boring, I know.

Anyway, I'm more than happy to throw the weight of my cash cow *** at PGI to prevent them from doing something stupid like this. Especially if they are going to kill the last build I still enjoy playing because Chris either doesn't know what he's doing, or he can't swallow his pride (possibly both).

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 10 July 2018 - 10:39 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Valer, on 10 July 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

Rest.In.Pieces Nova-Prime

I am one of those who like the Nova-Prime Stock build and I LOVE C-ERMLs :
That build will go from 84 firepower to 63 with those changes. Total heat will go from 75.6 to 68.4.

I have put a lot of training into this mech, I could certainly still compete with it with those changes but somehow I am not sold on it.

Meh.

I freakin feel you dude. I go half and half with 6 Meds and 6 Smalls, and I was actually fine with bringing the medium lasers alpha strike damage a bit, but this? I could use my experience to hang in there but I don't want to fight an uphill battle for mid-level scoreboard results, just because PGI can't figure out what balance is. RIP.

EDIT: by the way, so long as this isn't live, would you like to do some 1v1s? nobody else ever seems to pilot Novas in Solaris Div 2; I'm always shooting at Assault mechs.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 10 July 2018 - 10:49 AM.

[Reno Blade]

I see many comments mentioning that this nerf will "kill" clans, because the best builds for clans are Lasers (or some kind of full dakka).

With this alone, you have the top reason to reduce the lasers overall (including smaller lasers to a degree).
COMPARISON to other weapon/builds and VARIETY of your builds depend on this nerf - and possible smaller changes to other weapons.

Just look at the Community suggested changes.
There are buffs to AC20, some to pulse lasers, some to SRM spread...
These are countering the power of current lasers.
But at the same time, these Buff suggestions are NOT ENOUGH to get the weapons competitive against laser builds, and also would then still TOO MUCH to compare to overall balance of other weapons/builds, as these are then left below.

Yes we will need to challenge some IS parts (quirks, HGauss, RAC/MRM dps/spread...) but the major change here is the first important step that we all need to embrace, or we will be STUCK FOREVER in the "GO BIG (Laser vomit/Alpha) OR GO HOME!".

Don't you want to use the 3/4 of your collection that is collecting dust in your hangar to have some use?
Don't you want to get your Adder/Cougar/Ferret/Summoner/Gargl ... whatever "useless" Clan mech back to action with some smexy UAC20, MPL, SRM (bring non-meta here) build?
Are you not tired yet of laser vomit only builds?

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Reno Blade, on 10 July 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

I see many comments mentioning that this nerf will "kill" clans, because the best builds for clans are Lasers (or some kind of full dakka).

With this alone, you have the top reason to reduce the lasers overall (including smaller lasers to a degree).
COMPARISON to other weapon/builds and VARIETY of your builds depend on this nerf - and possible smaller changes to other weapons.

Just look at the Community suggested changes.
There are buffs to AC20, some to pulse lasers, some to SRM spread...
These are countering the power of current lasers.
But at the same time, these Buff suggestions are NOT ENOUGH to get the weapons competitive against laser builds, and also would then still TOO MUCH to compare to overall balance of other weapons/builds, as these are then left below.

Yes we will need to challenge some IS parts (quirks, HGauss, RAC/MRM dps/spread...) but the major change here is the first important step that we all need to embrace, or we will be STUCK FOREVER in the "GO BIG (Laser vomit/Alpha) OR GO HOME!".

Don't you want to use the 3/4 of your collection that is collecting dust in your hangar to have some use?
Don't you want to get your Adder/Cougar/Ferret/Summoner/Gargl ... whatever "useless" Clan mech back to action with some smexy UAC20, MPL, SRM (bring non-meta here) build?
Are you not tired yet of laser vomit only builds?

Yeah so follow the community patch. PGI's offering here is bad. The community patch is good. How much simpler could this be?

This suggestion if taken to live will be final nail in the clan coffin. With the exception of just a few overperformers, clans will be outright inferior to IS, pretty cut and dry. Don't we want this? No we don't.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 10 July 2018 - 12:05 PM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Reno Blade, on 10 July 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

Don't you want to use the 3/4 of your collection that is collecting dust in your hangar to have some use?
Don't you want to get your Adder/Cougar/Ferret/Summoner/Gargl ... whatever "useless" Clan mech back to action with some smexy UAC20, MPL, SRM (bring non-meta here) build?

Rotten apples wont be any better if you throw your oranges into the dumpster mate.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Nema Nabojiv, on 10 July 2018 - 12:08 PM, said:

Rotten apples wont be any better if you throw your oranges into the dumpster mate.

Thank you for putting it more eloquently then I could.

[Daurock]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 10 July 2018 - 11:57 AM, said:

Yeah so follow the community patch. PGI's offering here is bad. The community patch is good. How much simpler could this be?

The developers explained quite clearly why they aren't going to do the community patch. It says that in No uncertain terms - They are Nerfing clan Alphas, and they aren't going to buff a ton of other weapons instead. Disagree all you want with that, but it's very clear that according to them, buffing a ton of weapons is power creep, and something to be avoided. They simply are dead-set against bringing up the average power level of weapons up to the level of the current "Top" builds. If the sense is that the top half dozen clan weapons are clearly better than most other clan options, the developers are going to nerf those weapons instead of attempting to buff 30 different ones.

Instead of simply attempting replace any planned nerfs with a whole lot bigger list of buffs, (Which give the same end result, but with bigger numbers, and a whole lot more work involved) a more productive discussion would be to figure out just how far to tone down the lasers to balance with other clan tech and why, or which other builds may become rampant, and if they should be nerfed also. (Will HGR IS assaults, or ERLL Supernovas rule the battlefield?) Other good discussions could be had about what other changes and adjustments should come with such a sweeping change, such as Clan / IS Chassis adjustments, (Anni nerfs, Nova Buffs, for example) other appropriate adjustments to clan lasers, what other builds will rise, (How much more common will ERLL spam mechs become?) or even philosophical discussions about whether clan mechs make sense to be using non-LaserVomit in the first place. There's lots of good discussions to be had that don't begin and end with "You can't nerf clan lasers, clan has no other options!"

The developers have had Clan Laser nerfs in their sights for several months now, if not longer. There's a lot of momentum from their end, and attempting to change that train of thought is unlikely. It would probably be more wise to get out ahead of the planned nerf, and plan out and see what other things will likely need changing before they become major problems.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Once again your balancing pass is done by metrics and not by actual gameplay experience.

YOUR PROPOSED CHANGES WILL NOT AFFECT MY HIGH ALPHA GAUSS AND LASER BUILDS IN ANY WAY. I always fire my gauss rifles after the laser burn, so my alpha damge will not be broken up by screen shake.

in fact your changes will make the problem worse, since now i can run whales with 3 large lasers or 3 large pulse lasers and 2 gauss rifles.

The only thing your changes will affect are people running modest builds like 1 gauss rifle with 2 large pulses and 3 mediums such as I have on one of my Marauders. Thats only around 60 alpha but that's getting nerfed with screen shake. WHile my 80 alpha whales are unaffected by your changes and will likely get new more powerful configurations.

And your numbers listed are Fantasy. Sorry. 92 alpha on a gauss laser clan config is not sustainable. THere is a difference between th elisted alpha and what you can actually fire at once. No build with that much alpha running pure lasers or lasers and gauss (if you can even attain 92 alpha with a laser gauss build) will be able to fire more than one alpha strike...80 is the usual clan alpha for gauss laser builds and you can only fire that TWICE at the most.

However my homely dual heavy gauss Fafnir can toss out over 150 Pinpoint, ECM convered, Unrollable frontladed damage in 12 seconds. I can blow the CT out of another assault in 12 sconds...LET THAT SINK IN. you cant roll it. And if I'm at my proper range, You probably wont even notice me aiming at you till the second pair of gauss slugs hit you.

But clan alpha is outta control right? Thats why you see SO MANY direwhales running gauss lasers builds now....

THis right here is exactly why i dont buy clan mech packs from you guys anymore. You have a known and running hate ***** for clan tech and its constantly nerfed. I KNEW

KNEWWWWWWWWWWWW

You would come after clan gauss and lasers after the Blood asp dropped. THIS right here is exactly why I did not purchase one. I actually won a 5 dollar bet thanks you guys, you are just that predictable.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 10 July 2018 - 12:51 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

If these changes go live Im freaking done. I'm uninstalling and never coming back. This patch idea is complete trash. Point blank Pure and simple. I'm leaving and spending my time money effort and enjoyment somewhere else. I am sick of thse poor balancing passes. You guys havent balanced anything properly since the Uncalled-for Mauler GIGANERFS back when the Kodiaks dropped.

Then you gutted Kodiaks.

Maurader IIs, cause those where SO op..

You tried it with Madcat2's and we raised so much of a stink you put it away, but I know deep down you will come back to nerfbat those to uselessness and hanger queens later when you think we've forgotten.

I. AM. SICK. OF. THIS. ****.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 10 July 2018 - 12:59 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Daurock, on 10 July 2018 - 12:42 PM, said:

The developers explained quite clearly why they aren't going to do the community patch. It says that in No uncertain terms - They are Nerfing clan Alphas, and they aren't going to buff a ton of other weapons instead. Disagree all you want with that, but it's very clear that according to them, buffing a ton of weapons is power creep, and something to be avoided. They simply are dead-set against bringing up the average power level of weapons up to the level of the current "Top" builds. If the sense is that the top half dozen clan weapons are clearly better than most other clan options, the developers are going to nerf those weapons instead of attempting to buff 30 different ones.

Instead of simply attempting replace any planned nerfs with a whole lot bigger list of buffs, (Which give the same end result, but with bigger numbers, and a whole lot more work involved) a more productive discussion would be to figure out just how far to tone down the lasers to balance with other clan tech and why, or which other builds may become rampant, and if they should be nerfed also. (Will HGR IS assaults, or ERLL Supernovas rule the battlefield?) Other good discussions could be had about what other changes and adjustments should come with such a sweeping change, such as Clan / IS Chassis adjustments, (Anni nerfs, Nova Buffs, for example) other appropriate adjustments to clan lasers, what other builds will rise, (How much more common will ERLL spam mechs become?) or even philosophical discussions about whether clan mechs make sense to be using non-LaserVomit in the first place. There's lots of good discussions to be had that don't begin and end with "You can't nerf clan lasers, clan has no other options!"

The developers have had Clan Laser nerfs in their sights for several months now, if not longer. There's a lot of momentum from their end, and attempting to change that train of thought is unlikely. It would probably be more wise to get out ahead of the planned nerf, and plan out and see what other things will likely need changing before they become major problems.

Have you read the community patch? It's not all buffs in case you weren't aware, but the nerfs are sensical. Paul can explain whatever he wants, but if clan laser nerfs of this scale go through it will be bad for balance and it will hurt the game and I damn sure won't be paying anymore. And I'll tell you what, complaining about this list of changes IS productive the same way complaining about power draw was productive.

Regardless of what's in their "sights" PGIs current plan of action is not inevitable. This may be their product, and it may be their final decision of what to do, but if the point of your product is to make money, you are at some point subject of the whim of your customers. If PGI sees all of this and stays their course, they are not doing a good job of running a business, plain and simple.

And come on man, do you really think PGI knows what they're doing with balance better than their player-base does? We're not working with Jeff Kaplin here. We're working with PGI. And they're wonderful for bringing this game to life with the assets, and the mechanics, and all of these mechs, but they don't know what they're doing with balance. Don't try to convince yourself that behind closed doors Chris or Paul have a bead on how this game is supposed to play. They are tired and they are trying to keep their product alive, and unfortunately, they just don't trust any of us to know how to make that happen.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 10 July 2018 - 01:20 PM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

xXBagheeraXx, on 10 July 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:

If these changes go live Im freaking done. I'm uninstalling and never coming back. This patch idea is complete trash. Point blank Pure and simple. I'm leaving and spending my time money effort and enjoyment somewhere else. I am sick of thse poor balancing passes. You guys havent balanced anything properly since the Uncalled-for Mauler GIGANERFS back when the Kodiaks dropped.

I think I feel the same. I am not ragequitting kind of guy, but its like a toxic relationship. You take for for some time, saying yourself its no big deal, but it keeps going on and on and then you decide you just had enough.

[Daurock]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 10 July 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

Have you read the community patch? It's not all buffs in case you weren't aware, but the nerfs are sensical. Paul can explain whatever he wants, but if clan laser nerfs of this scale go through it will be bad for balance and it will hurt the game and I damn sure won't be paying anymore. And I'll tell you what, complaining about this list of changes IS productive the same way complaining about power draw was productive.

Regardless of what's in their "sights" PGIs current plan of action is not inevitable. This may be their product, and it may be their final decision of what to do, but if the point of your product is to make money, you are at some point subject of the whim of your customers. If PGI sees all of this and stays their course, they are not doing a good job of running a business, plane and simple.

I very much have read the community patch. There's a lot of good stuff in there. However, the community patch basically aims for an "Average" power level, at nearly the same point of the current "Top" Level. When I read it, I saw the same things the devs did - Namely, that the majority of weapons are getting a pretty significant buff, and a few are getting token nerfs, and thus, very significant power creep. That philosophy is directly at odds with the developers stated goal of avoiding power creep. Philosophies like that usually only change with a change in personnel.

As for the "Scale" of the change - The scale is big, because one of their stated goals was more or less to bring the usable clan alphas close to IS levels. With some of the alternative clan builds I've seen people cooking up using the 3xLL builds, I wouldn't be surprised if they take that as a license to bring the nerf stick to the raw damage even harder. (Like pulling away the 3xLL GH buff) Now, judging by the rest of their comments, I also would also flatly expect them to make clan lasers meet or exceed IS weaponry in sustainable DPS, so I Wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to see them drop the heat of many Clan weapons to achieve that.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Also I should point out, if Paul really wants to specifically solve the 94dmg alpha problem and there's "no room for debate" on that (real mature paul ), then link Medium and Large laser weapon groups together and go forward with raising the ghost heat cap on large lasers, It's that easy.

Daurock, on 10 July 2018 - 01:31 PM, said:

I very much have read the community patch. There's a lot of good stuff in there. However, the community patch basically aims for an "Average" power level, at nearly the same point of the current "Top" Level. When I read it, I saw the same things the devs did - Namely, that the majority of weapons are getting a pretty significant buff, and a few are getting token nerfs, and thus, very significant power creep. That philosophy is directly at odds with the developers stated goal of avoiding power creep. Philosophies like that usually only change with a change in personnel.

As for the "Scale" of the change - The scale is big, because one of their stated goals was more or less to bring the usable clan alphas close to IS levels. With some of the alternative clan builds I've seen people cooking up using the 3xLL builds, I wouldn't be surprised if they take that as a license to bring the nerf stick to the raw damage even harder. (Like pulling away the 3xLL GH buff) Now, judging by the rest of their comments, I also would also flatly expect them to make clan lasers meet or exceed IS weaponry in sustainable DPS, so I Wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to see them drop the heat of many Clan weapons to achieve that.

See above. Also let me point out that this alleged "power creep" Paul speaks of is misleading. If you bring more weapons in line with the "token nerfed" clan lasers, TTK does not go down, at least not at the higher levels of play. It remains the same and you experience more variety at the same level of TTK.

If Paul wants to pretend to be JFK and yell "Mr. Gorbachev tear down this TTK!" all day, that's his business, but if you look around at this community, clearly we're not going to cut him a break if he does, and that's good.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 10 July 2018 - 01:40 PM.

[Ahh Screw it - WATCH THIS]

Daurock, on 10 July 2018 - 12:42 PM, said:

The developers explained quite clearly why they aren't going to do the community patch.

<snip>

You are correct.

But then, it was explained quite clearly to them why their reasons were completely without merit.

Much pride (or stupidity) then led to what we have here instead of what was suggest by people who play the game every day.

If it is a test server why not quit telling your customer base (a customer base that spent an awful lot of unpaid hours coming up with suggestions they think will better your product) how wrong they are and test it?

[xXBagheeraXx]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 10 July 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

Also I should point out, if Paul really wants to specifically solve the 94dmg alpha problem and there's "no room for debate" on that (real mature paul ), then link Medium and Large laser weapon groups together and go forward with raising the ghost heat cap on large lasers, It's that easy.



See above.

I wanna know where the FK he got 94 alpha from?

Cause that BS.

The only build i can think of where i topped over 100 damage was an old Direwhale build

2lpls 2 uac10s 2 or 4 ermediums

I could do 100+ on a double tap IF the cannons didn't jam

THEY ALWAYS JAMMED

NO PURE ENERGY CLAN LASERBOAT CAN FIRE 94 POITNS OF DAMGE MORE THAN ONCE.

if you can even fire once. I'm pretty sure thats a one hit shutdown.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 10 July 2018 - 01:42 PM.

[SmokedJag]

xXBagheeraXx, on 10 July 2018 - 01:36 PM, said:

I wanna know where the FK he got 94 alpha from?

Cause that BS.

The only build i can think of where i topped over 100 damage was an old Direwhale build

2lpls 2 uac10s 2 or 4 ermediums

I could do 100+ on a double tap IF the cannons didn't jam

THEY ALWAYS JAMMED

Space Whale.

https://mwo.smurfy-n...78637d5110319ed

With heavy lasers it also fits on the Deathstrike.

But the builds people actually use are more like 80 for heat management or more ammo for Gauss.

[xXBagheeraXx]

SmokedJag, on 10 July 2018 - 01:42 PM, said:

Space Whale.

https://mwo.smurfy-n...78637d5110319ed

With heavy lasers it also fits on the Deathstrike.

But the builds people actually use are more like 80 for heat management or more ammo for Gauss.

Exactly. Ive been running an 80 alpha whale since they dropped My build can only alpha twice in a row. That build you posted I gurantee you can only fire ONCE and then you have to cool off. In the time it takes you to dump that heat my fafnir can put 6-8 shots through you.

That is NOT sustainable. Are they really going to balance all of clan tech off of a 1 off, rarely if ever seen cheese build? Nobody with any sense of logevity is going to run that.

The deathstrike build is usually 2 heavy large 2 ermdium with a lof ot ammo and sinks or a massive engine. thats nowhere near 94 alpha AND you can still only alpha about once without cooling off some.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 10 July 2018 - 01:48 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

SmokedJag, on 10 July 2018 - 01:42 PM, said:

Space Whale.

https://mwo.smurfy-n...78637d5110319ed

With heavy lasers it also fits on the Deathstrike.

But the builds people actually use are more like 80 for heat management or more ammo for Gauss.

And that's another thing. If their 94 damage pinpoint boogeyman isn't even optimized, well ****, screw that try out my 102 damage front loaded boogeyman

https://mwo.smurfy-n...34c0139d63d17e6

Every time he fires an Angel whispers "And his name is John Cena".

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 10 July 2018 - 01:52 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

THey are basically balancing all of clantech off of ONE poorly optimised Dire wolf

A DIRE WOLF

A mech that has not been top tier or relevant in about a year or two now.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 10 July 2018 - 01:51 PM, said:

And that's another thing. If their 94 damage pinpoint boogeyman isn't even optimized, well ****, screw that try out my 102 damage front loaded boogeyman

https://mwo.smurfy-n...34c0139d63d17e6

Every time he fires an Angel whispers "And his name is John Cena".

And that there is the reason why the Fafnir is the only mech i WONT peek on...LOL

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 10 July 2018 - 01:55 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

xXBagheeraXx, on 10 July 2018 - 01:53 PM, said:

And that there is the reason why the Fafnir is the only mech i WONT peek on...LOL

And the best part is when they torso twist to shield their CT, and you just blow the whole side torso off in response. Or when someone takes your side torso off and you still have enough guns to be an Assault mech and keep right on going.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 10 July 2018 - 02:00 PM.