518 replies to this topic

[xXBagheeraXx]

Yep...I just love going completly unnoticed in my super-stock Fafnir with a 4 second reload....By the time they see me usually half their mech is gone.

But Clan alpha is the problem boyz....LOL

[Vesper11]

Daurock, on 10 July 2018 - 01:31 PM, said:

As for the "Scale" of the change - The scale is big, because one of their stated goals was more or less to bring the usable clan alphas close to IS levels. With some of the alternative clan builds I've seen people cooking up using the 3xLL builds, I wouldn't be surprised if they take that as a license to bring the nerf stick to the raw damage even harder. (Like pulling away the 3xLL GH buff) Now, judging by the rest of their comments, I also would also flatly expect them to make clan lasers meet or exceed IS weaponry in sustainable DPS, so I Wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to see them drop the heat of many Clan weapons to achieve that.

Hahahahaha. This is some really stupid ********. Drop the heat, yea, drop Damage per Heat for almost every clan laser, pulses too, that will sure bring diversity to the game (if diversity = less people playing clans and even less playing clan lights and mediums). Clans surely need to bring their OP alpha to IS levels (where IS level = ****** large lasers with almost the same DPS per ton as ballistics, or inferior to SLs ERSLs, or no range MPL), this is why non-cERML/cHLL/cERLL/cGR weapons getting nerfs too because instead of addressing the "OP combos" it's better to nerf the core clan weapons without giving anything in return like buffing useless little shits like micros or ****** cERSLs that weren't the problem, instead of nerfing them. Oh and I totally love that cHML nerf that makes it have less DPS than smaller cHSL. Oh and buffing GH to 3 for larges surely addresses the high alpha problem because those OP alpha boogeymen totally care about anything but high alphas as long as they don't go over 100% heat in one alpha. Oh and nevermind that nerf almost all clans wasn't even on the list but suddenly it was the "most popular" choice.

What it looked like:

Chris Lowrey, on 08 June 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

[color=#FFA500]Option 1: [/color]

• Upfront damage is reduced to IS equivalent levels. Superior range values are kept.
  
• Instead of superior upfront damage, we can reduce the cool-downs, heat, and other attributes to move the natural boosted per-turn damage that the Clan weapons are historically known for in the fiction, as a higher rate of fire leaving them overall where they are now, but shifting the added damage perks away from Boosted Alpha strikes and more towards higher overall DPS. Keeping closer alpha damage

[color=#FFA500]Option 2: [/color]

• Clan Laser's heat scale triggers set to 30 damage caps similar to their IS counterparts. All other weapon attributes remain unaffected.
  
• This will keep the superior damage for the weapons as it is now, but mass lasers will come with a higher skill ceiling in order to effectively utilize the entire payload in combat.

iscussion for this topic be centralized within this thread as there will be multiple eyes on these discussion topics.

How it turned out:

Quote

[color=#FFA500]Not an Option: [/color]

• Upfront damage is reduced to IS equivalent levels. Superior range values are kept.
  
• Instead of superior upfront damage, we can reduce the cool-downs, heat, and other attributes to move the natural boosted per-turn damage that the Clan weapons are historically known for in the fiction, as a higher rate of fire leaving them overall nowhere they are now, but shifting the added damage perks away from Boosted Alpha strikes and more towards lower overall DPS. Keeping closer alpha damage
  
• Clan Laser's heat scale triggers set to 30 damage caps similar to their IS counterparts. All other weapon attributes remain affected.
  
• This will not keep the superior damage for the weapons as it is now, but mass lasers will come with a higher skill ceiling in order to effectively utilize the entire payload in combat.

Edited by Vesper11, 10 July 2018 - 03:47 PM.

[PraetorGix]

Xanzikron, on 09 July 2018 - 02:51 AM, said:

Note: I'm new to the game. Only about 300 hours. Also, I read all comments before posting.

So the biggest problem MWO has, from my perspective, is the original learning curve when you first start playing. The beauty of the game is also its biggest challenge: the massive amount of choice for the customization of your battle mechs and finding the balance in the current state of Clan vs inner sphere. Now I am about 40 mechs into this game, 5 Clan and 35 inner sphere. I find that I play Inner sphere more often, because quite frankly, Clan mechs are just harder to play. They are a lot softer and resemble glass Cannon / Caster types from other games. Conversely, inner sphere mechs are like the warrior / Barbarian classes. Inner sphere mechs have a lower damage output in general but they have a higher durability and they are more forgiving for mistakes / poor movement and maneuver choices. Only now am I starting to get the hang of certain Clan mechs for very limited roles for me, and I find that at least in my experience, for the Clans you really have to know exactly what you are doing have a really fine tuned build. I'm not saying that inner sphere mechs are super easy, but as a new player they have been much more forgiving and easier to learn. This is especially true because of how many ways you could build them. Conversely, with the Clans, once again I would like to point out that there are very limited ways to make them effective and viable during a match. Because of my own a learning curve experience, I am just now beginning to play some Clan mechs effectively. In my personal opinion, the balance is almost perfect as it is, and needs no change.

If anything, PGI would do well to try and make the game more user-friendly for new players, and to do a better job of explaining how the Metal Works and the roles of each Mech and faction in the grand scheme of things. It seems to me like they believe that the issue with player retention is that the game is unbalanced, but the reality is that the game is simply incredibly hard to learn and I find that most of my friends to whom I try to introduce the game end up quitting due to the difficulty of learning. The reason I have not quit personally, is because the series what is very near and dear to my heart as I played MechWarrior4 as a small child, and I am very grateful that somebody is keeping the series alive.

Now I understand that PGI needs to make money to keep the game running. I understand that they might feel that making the Clans, who, when played correctly, can be devastating on the battlefield; making them weaker might seem necessary to take and retain more new players. But this is the wrong way to approach the problem.
My personal recommendation is for them to focus harder on making the game more accessible. I know I'm going out on a limb here and I'm starting to get away from the current issue at hand, but I would highly suggest an app on the Google Play store or the Apple Store. I'm thinking an app that will help introduce new players to the mechanics of the game, something like that time based RPG like most other mobile games, and a game that would have passive benefits to their mwo account, like Supply caches. Or occasionally let them play one of those spin wheel games and some of the prizes can be a new small mechs, or hanger slots, or MC. I highly recommend doing something of this sort, as PGI needs to focus more on injecting new players and New Life blood into the game, rather than doing what they are doing now: alienating their loyal fan base, that is quite literally keeping them alive.

I personally have spent roughly $350 on this game. I don't make much, but to me it was worth it to support the team keeping my childhood game alive.

And finally, the last thing I want to ask the community in generally is, is there any way for the free market to fix this problem? And by that I mean other than simply letting this game die because they've alienated their entire player base, which is what they are risking right now. I mean, is PGI the only company that is allowed to use the MechWarrior brand? I know that BattleTech is run by a different Studio, so I guess that answers my question already, but I what I really am asking is if there is some sort of competitor mechanism that might force either this came to get his stuff together, or allow for a new company to take over at do a better job?

This post is (almost) pure gold. PGI should read this and be enlightened about what new players (i.e. this guy and maybe one and a half other people) think about TTK and tech differences.

[PraetorGix]

xXBagheeraXx, on 10 July 2018 - 01:53 PM, said:

THey are basically balancing all of clantech off of ONE poorly optimised Dire wolf

A DIRE WOLF

A mech that has not been top tier or relevant in about a year or two now.

To be fair, also around the Deathstrike. Now that, you know, they already sold it to everyone.
Now that I think of it, someone plz erase the B33f's video about the Direstar, before they nerf the ERPPCs to 25 heat/10 seconds recycle time for 5 splash damage.

Edited by PraetorGix, 10 July 2018 - 06:12 PM.

[Mikayshen]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 10 July 2018 - 01:51 PM, said:

Every time he fires an Angel whispers "And his name is John Cena".

I want this as a Warhorn.

[Dran Dragore]

as you can see: PGI gives ... nothing about 20 Pages of warnings.

OK. Do your stuff. Nerf the Clan Lasers to crap level. See what was happening. We told it. Its sad to see a game went into meaningless. Especialy when you put in so much money (like me). RIP Faction Play, RIP Clans.

Lets see what else is on the Market. Wasnt there a summer sale on Steam? Sorry PGI. I am really disappointed. At least take position against so much good arguments against this gamekilling stuff you are planing. Have i told that the Clans lacks versatillity and its boring just have a few working drop decks...?

[MacKJames]

At this point I'm keeping my wallet closed until MW5 is released. If it isn't great then it won't ever open for PGI again.

[Gettothechoppa]

This "rebalance" will remove any desire to play I have left. I know of veteran players who have quit entirely.

I've been playing this thing on and off since beta, I can find other things to do with my time and spending money than use it on MWO or any other PGI inspired work.

DO NOT apply this sham of a patch.

[Hal Greaves]

I've got actual input here.

The gauss charge is the stupidest thing ever. It makes the weapons EVEN HARDER for newbies / low level players to utilize while expert and up players will simply utilize them like heavy gauss. As in, the "recoil" is irrelevant. Nobody in EVIL or BCMC, or the GOONs or GN-X or KCOM or anybody has any damn issue with it. It's literally a fly on the wall that can be buzzed off with the wave of a hand. STOP BALANCING AROUND QUICK PLAY.

This is the stupidest decision ever. It further increases the skill gap exponentially and will completely turn this weapon off to anybody else but those that are actually understanding of the game systems as a whole.

Chris, I hate to say this, but you are massively misinformed on this subject entirely. You are welcome to drop by the BCMC/Cobra Teamspeak server at ANY TIME, anybody will be happy to drag you into an FP group and we'll help you understand everything.

But you have to want to do that first, and stop catoring to the 60% people on the Jarl's list. Because, honestly? Everything they ask for only screws them over in the end even more, and helps us in the 95% bracket and up exponentially.

Edited by Hal Greaves, 10 July 2018 - 10:32 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Hal Greaves, on 10 July 2018 - 10:29 PM, said:

I've got actual input here.

The gauss charge is the stupidest thing ever. It makes the weapons EVEN HARDER for newbies / low level players to utilize while expert and up players will simply utilize them like heavy gauss. As in, the "recoil" is irrelevant. Nobody in EVIL or BCMC, or the GOONs or GN-X or KCOM or anybody has any damn issue with it. It's literally a fly on the wall that can be buzzed off with the wave of a hand. STOP BALANCING AROUND QUICK PLAY.

This is the stupidest decision ever. It further increases the skill gap exponentially and will completely turn this weapon off to anybody else but those that are actually understanding of the game systems as a whole.

Chris, I hate to say this, but you are massively misinformed on this subject entirely. You are welcome to drop by the BCMC/Cobra Teamspeak server at ANY TIME, anybody will be happy to drag you into an FP group and we'll help you understand everything.

But you have to want to do that first, and stop catoring to the 60% people on the Jarl's list. Because, honestly? Everything they ask for only screws them over in the end even more, and helps us in the 95% bracket and up exponentially.

It is not just the "top tier" players who hate this, it is anyone who cares about the IP that this game is based on as well.

By the way, just because you can play well on a team in FP, it does not make your opinion any more "actual" than anyone else's. I have been in many games were "top tier" (team) players drop in QP, are the first to die and then blame the rest of the team for their deaths.

Edited by Ed Steele, 10 July 2018 - 10:40 PM.

[Hal Greaves]

Ed Steele, on 10 July 2018 - 10:38 PM, said:

It is not just the "top tier" players who hate this, it is anyone who cares about the IP that this game is based on as well.

No offense, but its the 60% player that whines the most when the "top tier" player obliterates them repeatedly, and then this happens. Recoil to clan gauss will be largely irrelevant to people like me, and I am not even a top tier player. I just understand how they play and the motions they do.

Meanwhile, everybody else will be ****** with a weapon system they can't grasp or understand. I really hate it man.

Edit:

FP and QP are two different animals, but these changes will destroy clan in FP entirely. FP embodies the inefficiencies in QP and serves to really show exactly what the clan mechs are made of, moreso than QP where you're 1 and done. But it doesn't change the fact that clans are, in fact, inferior to IS push yolo's. This is the biggest point of discontent.

Edited by Hal Greaves, 10 July 2018 - 10:44 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

PraetorGix, on 10 July 2018 - 06:05 PM, said:

This post is (almost) pure gold. PGI should read this and be enlightened about what new players (i.e. this guy and maybe one and a half other people) think about TTK and tech differences.

Holy crap that guy hit the nail on the head

GOOD clan builds are almost exclusively very focused on one specific thing...

And that one specfic thing that they are good at due to an ongoing cycle of nerf after nerf after nerf is Long range Poke builds. That is what pretty much ALL my clan mechs now employ if they arent LRM fire support, and even those have a battery of ermedium lasers as backup.

IS mechs arent easy persay but they are A dam spot more forgiving and more useful running pretty much anything you want to stick on them. LBX and a few medium lasers with SRMS? Go to town. Splat builds? Pick your poison. MRM LOL archer? GO ham son. IS mechs are the swiss army knives of the game. They dont NEED to alpha as hard as clanners. Thats the clanners ONE good thing they do well. Why are we trying to make IS perfectly equal to clans? They already have enough detriments and bonuses on each side to balance out. Dont even get me started on quirks. Need I remind you all I have a fafnir that can toss a pair of heavy gauss shots out ever 4 seconds? WITH ecm and Armor quirks.

My other fafnir build has almost 80 rounds of standard gauss. Ive had games so dam good Ive almost fired off the entirety of my ammo load. Try THAT bs in a Dire wolf....Almost did 1500 damage that game.

Hal Greaves, on 10 July 2018 - 10:40 PM, said:

No offense, but its the 60% player that whines the most when the "top tier" player obliterates them repeatedly, and then this happens. Recoil to clan gauss will be largely irrelevant to people like me, and I am not even a top tier player. I just understand how they play and the motions they do.

Meanwhile, everybody else will be ****** with a weapon system they can't grasp or understand. I really hate it man.

Basically this. Im not "top tier" either. But gauss is my bread and butter. THe gauss charge mechanic was stupid and did not stop me from still dominating with the weapon, it only hurts less skilled players. Ive even heard new players remark on how unweildy the charge mechanic makes the weapon so new players shy away from the weapon entirely. ITs not stopping poptarting, its not stopping high alpha gauss laser builds It basically did not do anything to the weapon other than keep it from becoming useful to new players while old farts like me continue to use it well.

The screen shake is going to have the same effect. My alpha whales are still gonna do just fine....

[PobbestGob]

Daurock, on 10 July 2018 - 01:31 PM, said:

I very much have read the community patch. There's a lot of good stuff in there. However, the community patch basically aims for an "Average" power level, at nearly the same point of the current "Top" Level. When I read it, I saw the same things the devs did - Namely, that the majority of weapons are getting a pretty significant buff, and a few are getting token nerfs, and thus, very significant power creep. That philosophy is directly at odds with the developers stated goal of avoiding power creep. Philosophies like that usually only change with a change in personnel.

Power creep is when new units make old ones obsolete. When clan battlemechs came out, superior clan slots/tonnage without the restrictions of omnimechs, that's power creep. Hardpoint inflation, such as the piranha or flea, is power creep, or when the kodiak first released, same thing. Big engine cap, high mounts, great agility. When older mechs start to become outclassed by newer options. Buffing weapons, even many at once, is not power creep. Every mech can mount weapons on it, it's a change for everyone not just one chassis. TTK is the word for weapons buffs, and TTK is in a good spot right now imo. We don't need more nerfs to increase it further, make it feel like we're fighting with squirt guns, or make snowballing 12 - 2 games even worse.

If PGI wants to avoid power creep, buffing weapons and chassis would be a good thing. With the Fafnir, Annihilator, Heavy Gauss, etc, clan mechs such as the Dire Wolf are mostly obsolete. Gargoyle too, with the cSPL, cSRM, and soon-to-be er small/medlas nerfs, has kinda died in favor of the newer mechs and playstyles. This is the real power creep and nerfs like these encourage it.

Edited by Kill2Blit, 10 July 2018 - 11:46 PM.

[Leon Ward]

Due to the lack of reaction on the part of PGI I assume that it does not interest the gentlemen! If PGI let go live I have to assume that MW5 was not programmed properly because MWO does not work and I will refrain from buying!

If a self-employed deliver a product that is not in order, in the free market economy, he is also not paid or must improve!

The overwhelming majority of the community (ie the customers) does not want to see the product (MWO) so it is only a waiver or remedy!

[Kikinalo]

It's disheartening to say the least when a game that has such a strong lore, decides to just leave it because a few IS players are screaming at the devs for overpowered builds. I've seen my fair share of coordinated IS players punching coordinated clanners in FP and I've also seen my fair share of said coordinated IS players being stomp when they use Clans.. And these builds does not even exist on a large majority of Clan mechs. I play both sides but definitely favour Clan mechs more. But we are already squishy mechs.
Not to mention my favourite 65 tonne IS mech that basically face-tanks a MCII with no problem. and could almost if not definitely take it down.

[SmokedJag]

Hal Greaves, on 10 July 2018 - 10:40 PM, said:

No offense, but its the 60% player that whines the most when the "top tier" player obliterates them repeatedly, and then this happens. Recoil to clan gauss will be largely irrelevant to people like me, and I am not even a top tier player. I just understand how they play and the motions they do.

Meanwhile, everybody else will be ****** with a weapon system they can't grasp or understand. I really hate it man.

Edit:

FP and QP are two different animals, but these changes will destroy clan in FP entirely. FP embodies the inefficiencies in QP and serves to really show exactly what the clan mechs are made of, moreso than QP where you're 1 and done. But it doesn't change the fact that clans are, in fact, inferior to IS push yolo's. This is the biggest point of discontent.

While the changes make the Clans more vulnerable in organized FP (they already are...), the specific change of raising the heat cap on large lasers make PUG faction battles on long maps slant hard to Clan. Firing 3-4 of those at once more than negates nerfing them in a snipe fest.

It's bad design from two directions forcing Clans into that role but that's what's proposed.

Edited by SmokedJag, 11 July 2018 - 05:09 AM.

[HassonAssassin]

I would simply like to add, that instead of a focus on Alpha strike potential, I would like a return to form for DPS and mixed-weapon grouping.

Again there are a few loadouts on a few mechs that have the given weight and space to boat 6 HML, 2C-GAUSS and 2CERLL for the hottest, close to most unsustainable to eliminate one or two players at best that can be countered with good positioning and twisting, a light mech, or well placed shots.

My DireWhale Ultraviolet is a DPS monster with 2C-LMG, 2C-LBX5, 2C-LBX10, and 3C-SRM6A.
It's a Critical / DPS focused build and it can and will chew through another mech that thinks they can alpha 96 points of damage on a hot map and not shut down.

Besides, half the time most of us in assaults are left in the back of the pack exposed, I really don't see how eliminating the potential to defend yourself while being left behind makes sense.

The direction of the PTS for the community I believe would much rather be for gameplay features. Maybe map testing, game mode variations, and possibly new tech.

Edited by HassonAssassin, 11 July 2018 - 06:07 AM.

[lazorbeamz]

Prototelis, on 06 July 2018 - 05:08 PM, said:

I'm actually pretty okay with this except for what you're doing to small lasers.

Lights are gimpy enough, and I'm pretty sure no one is abusing ersmalls.

Well you can actually abuse ersmalls on a nova. 12 er small, 4 clan mg. Sometimes produces funny results and will grind through CT of many heavies very quickly. I also enjoy playing 6 ersmall 2 ultra 10 ebon jaguar. These weapons stack together for very good alpha damage.

And really 5 damage goes down to 4.5 its not a big deal just a 10% diffirece while the dps actually stays. I think that we did have a cooldown increase for ersmalls in one of the recent patches and this leads to the conclusion that this weapon is statistically above average right now. Just absurd pinpoint damage for tonnage spent, similar to a heavy medium laser but without the evil duration and heat plus you can fire 6 of them instead of 4.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 11 July 2018 - 06:10 AM.

[Vesper11]

lazorbeamz, on 11 July 2018 - 06:07 AM, said:

I'm fine with nerfs

Oh, it's you again.

[Manicus]

"Thanks for the feedback" implies you listened to our feedback, but you didn't.