518 replies to this topic

[ThiefofAlways]

You will not get a dime more of my money. I'm done.

[Hal Greaves]

Manicus, on 11 July 2018 - 06:40 AM, said:

"Thanks for the feedback" implies you listened to our feedback, but you didn't.

I'm sure the feedback they read was the 5 people that agreed with the nerfs, while ignoreing the 38 or so pages of people that disagreed with everything.

Somehow we're stuck with the gauss recoil when literally everybody spoke out against it. How PGI can be so tone deaf here baffles me.

Will we ever even get an answer in this thread?

[DerHenker]

Balance the loading times plz

[Ruediger Steiner]

My last post on this topic.
Nerf it! I dare ya.
Good players will always find a way to keep their high alpha strikes or simply switch to other weapons. In ways you can´t imagine, cause you don´t play the game.
The only people that will have problems with your behavior are the unexperienced players. Soon you will start crying, cause you won´t get so much money from the old players anymore and new players will uninstall MWO after a few hours.
Average number of players is down to 1.000. And still you refuse to wake up ...
Good night MWO.

[Sevronis]

All this whining about changes, only because it hurts what players are used to using. I mean, laser damage going down but also buffing a couple other aspects of the weapons to compensate. It's not a full on nerf. Also, adding recoil to gauss won't bother me AND I personally think it makes sense. The IS Heavy Gauss is so huge that it gets recoil, the Clan gauss weighs less than the normal IS version AND takes up a smaller space. Don't you think a smaller space would mean less room for recoil stabilizers? Yes, I'm getting technical, but that's what I do.

That all being said, balance may be easier to get between IS and Clan if each mech was treated like a different classes would be in MMOs. Instead of globally nerfing or buffing weapons for all mechs, they add variables based on the stock of the mech, or how good the mech is. I mean, they already do that with quirks, but I'm talking on a higher level. For example, a mech that boats several of the same weapon stock would not get a damage bonus to lasers, but those that can't carry as many would at a percentage per hardpoint, or by a fixed bonus per weapon. Some examples:

1. A Hunchie 4P comes with 8 MLas and 1 SmLas stock. It would be allowed to carry up to 9 MLas, but would not get any damage bonus at all (or maybe not after 6/7), but could also get heat management buffs, either fixed, base+%/per MLas, or maybe just %/MLas, to help compensate for the obvious heat buildup you'd generate in order to still keep the build option viable.

2. An AWS-8Q would be the only one allowed to carry and use up to 3 PPC-type weapons without ghost heat. This could also mean, yes, 3 Heavy PPCs, but perhaps because of this it doesn't get any othe base weapon quirks, or maybe changes based on the type of PPC. On the Clan side, this could apply to the WHK-Prime as well as it comes with 4 ERPPC. Granted I'd still doubt you could fire all 4 at the same time without shutting down, but it also wouldn't need any base buffs.

3. Omnimechs would be trickier I think, unless they did it based on the MAX possible of the same weapon it could carry. Like if it can take more than 6 or 7 ERMLas (like an Ebon Jaguar), then the chassis would get no damage bonus at all regardless of how many they actually load on (as the base weapons would already still do pre-PTS nerf damage which is more than IS), but an omni that can only take max of 6 or less would get a damage and/or heat bonus per same type laser equipped.

I won't delve more into it than that, and YES, I do realize this would take a long time to properly code and integrate, but I feel that it would not only eliminate the need for ghost heat, allow laser vomit players to do their thing, but shouldn't give them a huge advantage over other options (like a HBK-4P with 6 MLas and 3 SmLas/Pulse would do the same damage potential as a HBK-4p that carries all 9 MLas, or same builds to come close, but not equal, to the damage potential of a 9 ERMlas EBJ since clan weapons would still have to have some lore advantage. But still wouldn't cause the Clan to auto-win as it would then depend on pilot skill, skill node choices, etc to determine the winner). This is what balance would be. Each side would have clear advantages and disadvantages over each other, but both would have an equal chance of winning excluding outside factors (again, player skill, node selections, etc). Now this was just about (laser) weapons, but I feel that's really the only important issue that people rant about with balance most of the time. Other weapon types would have their own criteria per mech to balance, but I'd be typing forever if I covered everything. In terms of if a 9 MLas HBK-4P could take on and defeat a 9 ERMlas Ebon Jaguar, the Ebon would take more damage from the Hunchie than the Hunchie could from it and would also be able to initially reach out futher, but perhaps the skill of the Hunchie pilot might still be able to take down the Ebon after nullifying the range advantage.

This was all theory crafting, but still think it may be a good step to start with. Not that PGI would do it since it would take a lot of time to implement. Then again if it seemed to work better, perhaps it would be worth the time in the long run.

[Vesper11]

Sevronis, on 11 July 2018 - 09:53 AM, said:

It's not a full on nerf.

I'll copypaste again, because it is:
cERSL:
DPS: 1.09 DPH: 1.43 - old and somewhat bad
DPS: 1.02 DPH: 1.38 - new and even worse
compare to
ERSL:
DPS: 0.93 DPH: 1.48
SL:
DPS: 1.08 DPH: 2.95 -50m really, why do ERSLs even exist, oh right, it's to make cERSL nerfs look "balanced"
cSPL:
DPS: 1.60 DPH: 1.95 -50m +0.5t (now PGI will nerf it too)
cERML:
DPS: 1.22 DPH: 1.11
DPS: 1.00 DPH: 0.92
ERML:
DPS: 1.02 DPH: 1.11 -40m yes, clan lasers are not only hotter and have longer burn but now also weaker!
cERLL:
DPS: 2.16 DPH: 1.10
DPS: 1.96 DPH: 1.00
ERLL:
DPS: 2.00 DPH: 1.13 -65m +1t never was a fan of (c)ERLLs
cMPL:
DPS: 1.79 DPH: 1.47
DPS: 1.60 DPH: 1.39
MPL:
DPS: 1.76 DPH: 1.58 -110m and this is the reason for cMPL nerf, because MPL sucks so much they brought cMPL down to its level.
ERML:
DPS: 1.02 DPH: 1.11 +30m -1t
cLPL:
DPS: 2.80 DPH: 1.20
DPS: 2.55 DPH: 1.09
LPL:
DPS: 2.72 DPH: 1.38 -235m +1t LPL sux
LL:
DPS: 2.14 DPH: 1.29 -150m -1t 450m is good enough tho and a bit better DPS per ton but still very bad DPS per ton for laser
ERLL:
DPS: 2.00 DPH: 1.13 +75m -1t thus slightly lower DPS per ton
cHML:
DPS: 1.44 DPH: 1.25
DPS: 1.16 DPH: 1.14 - now even more useless
ML:
DPS: 1.14 DPH: 1.47
cHSL:
DPS: 1.25 DPH: 1.73 -155m, yep now larger lasers are also weaker, hotter and longer burn than already bad smaller lasers
cHLL:
DPS: 2.47 DPH: 1.13
DPS: 2.20 DPH: 1.00
LL:
DPS: 2.14 DPH: 1.29 +1t

[Grus]

Can I propose that the people that are going to be on the PTS meet up on the TS NGNG server so we can actualy discuss and TEST these changes? And by all means this includes PGI members as well.

Or can PGI set up a temp one on TS or disscord?

Edited by Grus, 11 July 2018 - 10:08 AM.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

This test is kind of silly. In a 4v4 format, people will mostly bring brawling weapons and I suspect, will avoid the Clan mechs and nerfed lasers in general. People don't like to lose, even on a test server.

[Sevronis]

Vesper11, on 11 July 2018 - 10:07 AM, said:

I'll copypaste again, because it is:
cERSL:
DPS: 1.09 DPH: 1.43 - old and somewhat bad
DPS: 1.02 DPH: 1.38 - new and even worse
compare to
ERSL:
DPS: 0.93 DPH: 1.48
SL:
DPS: 1.08 DPH: 2.95 -50m really, why do ERSLs even exist, oh right, it's to make cERSL nerfs look "balanced"
cSPL:
DPS: 1.60 DPH: 1.95 -50m +0.5t (now PGI will nerf it too)
cERML:
DPS: 1.22 DPH: 1.11
DPS: 1.00 DPH: 0.92
ERML:
DPS: 1.02 DPH: 1.11 -40m yes, clan lasers are not only hotter and have longer burn but now also weaker!
cERLL:
DPS: 2.16 DPH: 1.10
DPS: 1.96 DPH: 1.00
ERLL:
DPS: 2.00 DPH: 1.13 -65m +1t never was a fan of (c)ERLLs
cMPL:
DPS: 1.79 DPH: 1.47
DPS: 1.60 DPH: 1.39
MPL:
DPS: 1.76 DPH: 1.58 -110m and this is the reason for cMPL nerf, because MPL sucks so much they brought cMPL down to its level.
ERML:
DPS: 1.02 DPH: 1.11 +30m -1t
cLPL:
DPS: 2.80 DPH: 1.20
DPS: 2.55 DPH: 1.09
LPL:
DPS: 2.72 DPH: 1.38 -235m +1t LPL sux
LL:
DPS: 2.14 DPH: 1.29 -150m -1t 450m is good enough tho and a bit better DPS per ton but still very bad DPS per ton for laser
ERLL:
DPS: 2.00 DPH: 1.13 +75m -1t thus slightly lower DPS per ton
cHML:
DPS: 1.44 DPH: 1.25
DPS: 1.16 DPH: 1.14 - now even more useless
ML:
DPS: 1.14 DPH: 1.47
cHSL:
DPS: 1.25 DPH: 1.73 -155m, yep now larger lasers are also weaker, hotter and longer burn than already bad smaller lasers
cHLL:
DPS: 2.47 DPH: 1.13
DPS: 2.20 DPH: 1.00
LL:
DPS: 2.14 DPH: 1.29 +1t

You can show me numbers, but to me a full on nerf would be if they lowered damage AND increased heat generation AND increased duration AND increased cooldown time AND decreased range.

As far as I see it, they just lowered damage, but made using them not as hot either. So no. NOT a full on nerf.

Edited by Sevronis, 11 July 2018 - 10:41 AM.

[Vesper11]

Sevronis, on 11 July 2018 - 10:39 AM, said:

You can show me numbers, but to me a full on nerf would be if they lowered damaged AND increased heat AND increased duration AND increased cooldown time AND decreased range.

As far as I see it, they just lowered damage, but made using them not as hot either. So no. NOT a full on nerf.

Dude, DPH means Damage per Heat aka heat efficiency, the less DPH the weapon has the less damage it does per same amount of heat and if you look at numbers above you'll see that EVERY weapon got its DPH reduced aka became hotter.

[R E T I]

Grus, on 11 July 2018 - 10:07 AM, said:

Can I propose that the people that are going to be on the PTS meet up on the TS NGNG server so we can actualy discuss and TEST these changes? And by all means this includes PGI members as well.

Or can PGI set up a temp one on TS or disscord?

Did you think PGI actually plays this game LMAO. In my many years of playing I have seen Tina on a couple of times. I see Sean Lang on every once in awhile and his side kick but they arent PGI employees. They just say nice things about the game and get all kinds of MC and CBills ;p

[R E T I]

ArtiSeth, on 11 July 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

Did you think PGI actually plays this game LMAO. In my many years of playing I have seen Tina on a couple of times. I see Sean Lang on every once in awhile and his side kick but they arent PGI employees. They just say nice things about the game and get all kinds of MC and CBills ;p

And I have never seen one PGI employee in Faction Play.

[Grus]

ArtiSeth, on 11 July 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

Did you think PGI actually plays this game LMAO. In my many years of playing I have seen Tina on a couple of times. I see Sean Lang on every once in awhile and his side kick but they arent PGI employees. They just say nice things about the game and get all kinds of MC and CBills ;p

Your doubts and Shawn's oral service aside, id still like to see them "walk a mile" in the shoes they wamt us in.

[NocturnalBeast]

Hal Greaves, on 10 July 2018 - 10:40 PM, said:

No offense, but its the 60% player that whines the most when the "top tier" player obliterates them repeatedly, and then this happens. Recoil to clan gauss will be largely irrelevant to people like me, and I am not even a top tier player. I just understand how they play and the motions they do.

Meanwhile, everybody else will be ****** with a weapon system they can't grasp or understand. I really hate it man.

Edit:

FP and QP are two different animals, but these changes will destroy clan in FP entirely. FP embodies the inefficiencies in QP and serves to really show exactly what the clan mechs are made of, moreso than QP where you're 1 and done. But it doesn't change the fact that clans are, in fact, inferior to IS push yolo's. This is the biggest point of discontent.

I play FP on occasion on a Clan account mostly (because I keep taking apart and rebuilding my IS Mechs). I am not part of an active unit on my Clan account, so if I play FP, it is usually because someone on my friends list invites me to a PUG group that they put together in the group finder. The last time I did a FP drop, as soon as the game started one of the people on the IS side started whining that we were a pre-made and we should have fun stomping them (even though we were just a pickup group from group finder). Needless to say, the IS side were convinced from before the game even started that they had no chance and they barely tried and did lose the game quite badly. I have seen this attitude more than once, but the funny thing is, that the last time I dropped in FP with an IS (premade) team, we stomped the Clan team. So like many people have said, the perceived issues with OP Clan tech is usually just from people who get beat by good teamwork, but can't accept that it was teamwork that beat them and not some hacks/power imbalence/or whatever else.

[Reno Blade]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 10 July 2018 - 11:57 AM, said:

Yeah so follow the community patch. PGI's offering here is bad. The community patch is good. How much simpler could this be?

This suggestion if taken to live will be final nail in the clan coffin. With the exception of just a few overperformers, clans will be outright inferior to IS, pretty cut and dry. Don't we want this? No we don't.

So you didn't give any reason for going for the Community patch, nor did you give any comment of my post.
Why even reply to me if you ignore all of the big questions that nobody seems to consider when complaining?

The current PTS1 numbers ARE lacking.
Instead of posting stuff without any use for the Devs, give improvement ideas (e.g. reduce heat by 10% on all lasers) and then we can have a different expectation.
(The Community patch does not consider the direction, so it needs adjustment to be useful for the current PTS)
But just saying that Clans will be dead, because all weapons will be as "normal" as cUAC20 is inconsequent.

Nema Nabojiv, on 10 July 2018 - 12:08 PM, said:

Rotten apples wont be any better if you throw your oranges into the dumpster mate.

You are saying that all non-laser Clan weapons are so bad?
That's one of the issues of the Clan laser power. If it's the best weapon, all others are not even considered.
Get the lasers down to the Apples, then everyone will shoot Apples instead of a few people shooting shiny diamonds.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 10 July 2018 - 01:59 PM, said:

And the best part is when they torso twist to shield their CT, and you just blow the whole side torso off in response. Or when someone takes your side torso off and you still have enough guns to be an Assault mech and keep right on going.

See... here you have the reason why we need to nerf stuff in the first place.
You can boat tons of weapons (be it laser vomit or whatever alpha you prefere) and cripple an heavy/assault.
Would you take something smaller to this fight?
Maybe a relatively slow medium/light mech (e.g. Cougar/Adder or some IS medium that is not running 90kph+).
You would lose more than maybe an arm or few weapons, you would be useless after getting hit with something like you described.

xXBagheeraXx, on 10 July 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

Yep...I just love going completly unnoticed in my super-stock Fafnir with a 4 second reload....By the time they see me usually half their mech is gone.

But Clan alpha is the problem boyz....LOL

Same here.
You are only considering "go big or go home", right?
Do you think it's fun to get 2-shot or even 1-shot (if your target does not bring an assault)?

PraetorGix, on 10 July 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

To be fair, also around the Deathstrike. Now that, you know, they already sold it to everyone.
Now that I think of it, someone plz erase the B33f's video about the Direstar, before they nerf the ERPPCs to 25 heat/10 seconds recycle time for 5 splash damage.

the Direstar is actually instant-suicide-death because PGI added a limit to how high you can go with heatscale just for this funny build.

Gettothechoppa, on 10 July 2018 - 09:54 PM, said:

This "rebalance" will remove any desire to play I have left. I know of veteran players who have quit entirely.

I've been playing this thing on and off since beta, I can find other things to do with my time and spending money than use it on MWO or any other PGI inspired work.

DO NOT apply this sham of a patch.

Firstly, it's a Test server, so it will not go to live without at least one or two more test server versions.

And secondly about the desire to play....
I know a ton of players who stopped when we had PPC meta.
and I know more players who stopped of boredom of the Laser vomit meta.


I hear a lot of people complaining of the game being stale, but here I see some people complaining that they have to change their favorite builds...after playing laser meta for how long...?
1. Your builds will still work, while not 50% stronger than IS counterpart, they will only be 15% stronger then.
2. This game is about customizing the heck out of mechs and not playing your standard RPG mage/warrior/hunter with a 2 button combo.
3. With the reduction of Laser vomit from the top Alpha (not sustained dps, mind you), you will have more reason to get your other weapons dusted off (SRM brawling, UACs, ATMS... name it), as the advantage gap of laser boats will be lower.

and finally, if the overall Clan "power" of all clan weapons is then only 90-100% of IS weapons, PGI said they will reduce quirks of the IS mechs down again (or reduce some IS outliners like HGR).

[Smutty]

Man every time I read a Reno Blade post I gain another chromosome

Aight PGI we up to 21 pages of complaints plus other threads

Any news on PTS changes? Y'know, for the good of the gamestate? I'm sure a lot of people here have other ways to spend their time

[Sevronis]

Vesper11, on 11 July 2018 - 10:44 AM, said:

Dude, DPH means Damage per Heat aka heat efficiency, the less DPH the weapon has the less damage it does per same amount of heat and if you look at numbers above you'll see that EVERY weapon got its DPH reduced aka became hotter.

Dude, I know what DPH stands for. This isn't my first rodeo as I've played since Closed Beta. In fact, I'm not denying the numbers you gave and I did my own math for comparisons within a 20 second window and yes, the DPS and DPH did go down. BUT, you are only including the numbers for the weapons themselves. I don't see any incorporation for other variables such as heat quirks or skill nodes. The fact that the smaller lasers have their heat reduced means they won't generate as much heat per fire. But if you also include dissipation rate, -heat chassis quirks, and number of heat sinks (especially using a lot of cDHS with operations tree nodes), you may find that you'll not only run cooler, but may be able to fire more often before you have to go cool back down and might even see a DPH increase on certain mechs. Not to mention being able to fire 4 cERLL or LgPls at the same time with the ghost heat threshold set at 4 will not generate as much heat with that alpha as 4 cERLL/LgPls with a ghost heat threshold of 3. That's another buff. Granted, even 4 ERLL together is really hot regardless and I doubt you could fire 2 alphas in a row without shutting down. The ONLY laser on that list that does not have any positive change to it is the Heavy Large.

As far as I see it, especially for those more concerned about heat management than the DPH, that change itself is a plus. If all you look at is damage, then obviously no, you won't see it that way. But that's my point isn't it? Because the individual stat changes may anger or please each player differently, is WHY this is NOT a full on complete nerf. If they changed all stats on the weapons to negative values, you and I would be having a much different argument, in fact it wouldn't be an argument as I would then be agreeing with you.

Edited by Sevronis, 11 July 2018 - 11:50 AM.

[Grus]

Reno Blade, on 11 July 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

words.

IDK what dire wolf you are using but mine has 106 alpha and very viable. (And no missles) all direct fire.

[PobbestGob]

Sevronis, on 11 July 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

Dude, I know what DPH stands for. This isn't my first rodeo as I've played since Closed Beta. In fact, I'm not denying the numbers you gave and I did my own math for comparisons within a 20 second window and yes, the DPS and DPH did go down. BUT, you are only including the numbers for the weapons themselves. I don't see any incorporation for other variables such as heat quirks or skill nodes. The fact that the smaller lasers have their heat reduced means they won't generate as much heat per fire. But if you also include dissipation rate, -heat chassis quirks, and number of heat sinks (especially using a lot of cDHS with operations tree nodes), you may find that you'll not only run cooler, but may be able to fire more often before you have to go cool back down and might even see a DPH increase on certain mechs. Not to mention being able to fire 4 cERLL or LgPls at the same time with the ghost heat threshold set at 4 will not generate as much heat with that alpha as 4 cERLL/LgPls with a ghost heat threshold of 3. That's another buff. Granted, even 4 ERLL together is really hot regardless and I doubt you could fire 2 alphas in a row without shutting down. The ONLY laser on that list that does not have any positive change to it is the Heavy Large.

The quirks and skill nodes will scale the before and after values the same, meaning those reductions in DPH will persist. You can also calculate a mech's sustained dps by multiplying the maximum dps by the heat efficiency. So because DPH is going down, sustained dps goes down, whether you can alpha more times or not. you are correct though that the deathstrike for example gets a buff with this with the ghost heat change, rather than the nerf that was intended for it. Lighter clan mechs unable to take 3erLL will suffer tho.

Edited by Kill2Blit, 11 July 2018 - 12:43 PM.

[Vesper11]

Sevronis, on 11 July 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

Dude, I know what DPH stands for. This isn't my first rodeo as I've played since Closed Beta. In fact, I'm not denying the numbers you gave and I did my own math for comparisons within a 20 second window and yes, the DPS and DPH did go down. BUT, you are only including the numbers for the weapons themselves. I don't see any incorporation for other variables such as heat quirks or skill nodes. The fact that the smaller lasers have their heat reduced means they won't generate as much heat per fire. But if you also include dissipation rate, -heat chassis quirks, and number of heat sinks (especially using a lot of cDHS with operations tree nodes), you may find that you'll not only run cooler, but may be able to fire more often before you have to go cool back down and might even see a DPH increase on certain mechs. Not to mention being able to fire 4 cERLL or LgPls at the same time with the ghost heat threshold set at 4 will not generate as much heat with that alpha as 4 cERLL/LgPls with a ghost heat threshold of 3. That's another buff. Granted, even 4 ERLL together is really hot regardless and I doubt you could fire 2 alphas in a row without shutting down. The ONLY laser on that list that does not have any positive change to it is the Heavy Large.

As far as I see it, especially for those more concerned about heat management than the DPH, that change itself is a plus. If all you look at is damage, then obviously no, you won't see it that way. But that's my point isn't it? Because the individual stat changes may anger or please each player differently, is WHY this is NOT a full on complete nerf. If they changed all stats on the weapons to negative values, you and I would be having a much different argument, in fact it wouldn't be an argument as I would then be agreeing with you.

You should spend more than 20 seconds on math and actually study it, there's just so much ******** in your post. Do you understand that heat management doesn't mean a **** if that heat doesn't translate into damage? Because this is what we are getting here. Oh, and nice "4" cERLL/cLPL buff, seems like "20 second math" isn't the only problem:
Heat Scale Trigger Increased to 4 (from 3)
- This means that you will receive the first heat scale penalty when firing 4 Clan ER-Large Lasers.