280 replies to this topic

[Vesper11]

SmokeGuar, on 26 July 2018 - 02:00 AM, said:

If you get even teams (premade) on FW, at end of close match, Clan damage numbers are way higher, as much as 50% greater vs same amount of kills. Taking damage (spread, range) capability from Clans will only make things go worse.

Remind me, does the tutorial teach new players how to twist to spread damage?

[ZortPointNarf]

So I will wait till I actually play the PTS and then form my opinion, and then provide proper feedback instead of angry screen screaming as seems to be the way of the forum warrior.

• I like the introduction of longer burn times, it allows for some damage mitigation.
  
• I really like the reduction in the armour quirks of the IS mechs, those things are outliers and we all know it. I may not be able to make an Ani of a Faf work, but there are hordes of players that do and then they are op (in brawling, not getting mobbed on the way to battle by a rabid fishy). Ani needs higher arm position or a bigger engine, thing is a chore to drive, and reducing its armour will probably kill it. Once its in battle it is a battle god, getting to the battle, not so much.
  
• My main concern remains that in nerfing some of the weapons, the smaller mechs that can not boat all the weapons and all the heatsinks are worse off when this doesn't really solve the problem of high alpha boating. (I do think its a step in the right direction).
  
• Frequent iterative changes, small iterative changes, is the way to go. Game needs fortnightly balance releases and not monthly, if you nudge a weapon in 3 increments of 0,1 to the value you predicted it should be the player base will not feel as jarred by the changes. Learn from Starcraft II, they did this exceptionally well. You can also see the impact of your changes and revert or adjust them as need be.
  
• There will always be someone screaming "muh weapons!" they do not speak for all. Most importantly, these balance sheets flying around do not speak for all, they may appeal to the meta warriors, but for the most part do not appeal to me. Nor do I dismiss them outright, as some of their changes are good, foremost the slot reduction of the IS LBX20. They simply don't have the game information PGI has and its extremely arrogant to demand changes when you can't see the forest for the trees, also doesn't mean they are not sometimes right.

Stomp you all on the PTS.

Edited by ZortPointNarf, 26 July 2018 - 02:23 AM.

[Dungeon 206]

justcallme A S H, on 25 July 2018 - 09:43 PM, said:

The other side of it is these balance changes even in PTS form are just so constantly wayward they are breaking my will to play or even really care. I mean look how many GOOD Players and Streamers have left the game the past few months. You've broken the will of many others. Lets look at some high level players that also streamed MWO just essentially had enough/stopped:

Solitud3
TwinkyOverlord
Bear_Claw (PGI Master Challenge)
Fragosaurus (PGI Master Challenge)
The_b33f (Always involved in Dev drops/crazy stunts and crazy antics videos)
Juju_shinobi

No doubt others I have missed as well and I know PGI are aware of this, otherwise there would not be a Streamer Round Table of sorts being discussed or whatever at the moment.

I'll give you the tip - they didn't leave because they were having fun. They are leaving because changes (even proposed one) like this. I mean you don't play a game for 5 years and suddenly get sick of it if you're still having fun... The attrition at the high end of the player base has been getting worse and worse the past 12 months, something really needs to be done.

PGI why cant you guys seem to get it?
do you know how screwed up the game has to be for these top players and streamers to voluntarily stop playing and leave?

a year or so ago, the B33f quit his job just so he can stream MWO full time!
NOW HE'S QUIT MWO COMPLETELY!

Bear Claw, who you yourselves declared as a "Master" and who gave time and effort to countless "Masters Challenges"
DELIBERATELY GOT HIMSELF BANNED ON LIVE STREAM CAUSE HE HAD ENOUGH!
i mean, how bad is the game that people would resort to this? and high level players nonetheless!
dont you just get how much you've screwed up your own game???

Chris. stop being arrogant
the changes that the community document suggests are so much better and more well balanced that this crap thats being presented for PTS.
Why dont you just implement these community suggested changes for PTS and see how they turn out?
NOBODY IS GONNA CARE THAT YOU DIDNT THINK OF THE RIGHT CHANGES FOR BALANCE.
IN FACT EVERYONE IS GONNA SALUTE YOU FOR BEING HUMBLE ENOUGH TO TAKE ON OUR FEEDBACK.


PGI you yourselves know that the game is dying.
you know it. and we know it. you cant cover it up.
round after round of events and sales just to try and retain player base is just seriously sad.

why not just listen for once to the player base and implement the community doc changes.
see if that brings the players back.
see if that generates a positive response.
AND YES SEE IF THAT ACTUALLY HELPS WITH "TTK"

i only started playing in april 2017. i loved the game so much i spent ~USD$300 way before the year was up.
then came skill tree. --> fine learnt to live with it.
then came engine desync --> killed my favourite mechs but i learnt to live with it.

then came round after round of nonsensical weapon changes that
1. destroyed almost all the clan mechs
2. destroyed more than half the playstyles
and worse of all
3. encouraged useless lurming while eradicating any incentive to improve in teamwork and direct fire skill work.

7 months into 2018 and i have since not spent a single cent.
why should i?
when the game doesn't encourage teamwork and doesn't give any incentive for players to want to improve?

good job PGI.

[Bud Crue]

InnerSphereNews, on 25 July 2018 - 05:40 PM, said:

Since the introduction of the Skill tree native defensive quirks, which where not reduced with it's introduction, have become a de-facto barrier to entry for many Inner Sphere 'Mechs to be considered viable against Clan alternatives. While we do not seek to remove them as a form of Corrective, or flavor quirk, their status as a barrier to entry for viability for Inner Sphere 'Mechs is something that directly goes against the intention of the quirk system. So changes that push this dial towards better baseline balance between the two factions to move away from this barrier to entry for viability is something that we wish to test with this incoming PTS.

So...let me make sure I have this: You (again) assert that IS quirks, in this case defensive quirks, are preventing IS mechs from being "viable against clan alternatives"

Wut?

But it gets better...you think that by reducing said defensive quirks that this will some how make the weaker IS mechs stronger against the clan mech alternatives?

Come again?

No really, you need to clarify this, because as written it is utter nonsense.

Edit: Now don't get me wrong, you are doing EXACTLY what I predicted you would do (nerf clans to the ground to meet Paul's goals and then go after IS quirks to meet yours) but could you at least pretend to make up a reason that actually makes sense?

Edited by Bud Crue, 26 July 2018 - 02:52 AM.

[BTGbullseye]

Well, it looks much better than 1.0, but it's like you want to go way too far in every way nerfing this stuff. It's like you're trying to make Clan mechs so undesirable to play with that people will stop using them entirely.

[NUMBERZero1032]

InnerSphereNews, on 25 July 2018 - 05:40 PM, said:

Based on feedback from the player base

Let me stop you there. Community balance sheet, hello?

[process]

These changes... they're uh... not good you guys.

[SmokeGuar]

Vesper11, on 26 July 2018 - 02:05 AM, said:

Remind me, does the tutorial teach new players how to twist to spread damage?

Do you balance game based on players (wet behind ears) doing 2 FW matches per month or those who do 200 matches? Because those who play more, know how to survive longer, and currently IS mechs survive way longer than Clan mechs.

[NUMBERZero1032]

People still use cLPL's nowadays anyway???

[Navid A1]

I've got a suggestion Chris, its a PTS, why don't you increase C-SPL damage to 5 (with adjustment to other stats) to prove all of us that we are so so wrong?

[Navid A1]

ZortPointNarf, on 26 July 2018 - 02:21 AM, said:

• There will always be someone screaming "muh weapons!" they do not speak for all. Most importantly, these balance sheets flying around do not speak for all, they may appeal to the meta warriors, but for the most part do not appeal to me. Nor do I dismiss them outright, as some of their changes are good, foremost the slot reduction of the IS LBX20. They simply don't have the game information PGI has and its extremely arrogant to demand changes when you can't see the forest for the trees, also doesn't mean they are not sometimes right.

Stomp you all on the PTS.

1- Define "meta warriors". That balance sheet is the final result of feedback from hundreds of players (both veterans and new players)

2- define that "game information" that we don't have. On the contrary, WE have something THEY don't have... and its gameplay experience! and the ins and outs of how each mechs/weapon/build is played.

3- Extremely Arrogant?... seriously?
Imagine your car has a problem with the engine and when you bring it in for repairs, the mechanic punches holes in all of the tires, then tries to fix them with duct tape, then charges you full price for an engine service. In such a case, would you be extremely arrogant if you complain??!!

[Steve Pryde]

I never get why you didn't copy just the community balance changes. the whole community had approved the changes but you ignore them now entirely? Wow, just wow. That's like spitting the community into the face.

[Bud Crue]

Steve Pryde, on 26 July 2018 - 05:01 AM, said:

I never get why you didn't copy just the community balance changes. the whole community had approved the changes but you ignore them now entirely? Wow, just wow. That's like spitting the community into the face.

Both here and on Reddit there were like a dozen people who expressed either outright dismissal of the "community" effort and another couple dozen who had qualms about some aspect though otherwise liked it.

Paul and later Russ focused on that and asserted that the community balance effort "lacked overwhelming community support", implying that we would need near, if not absolute 100% community approval for them to even consider the changes. They also asserted that the changes were "big" and that PGI does not "do big changes".

And no I am not joking.

While Chris has acknowledged the community balance effort "as a good place to start" he has also been clear that in his view it represents unrestrained "power creep". So I am not sure how it can bee seen as a good place to start, if that start is in contradiction to what they seem to be doing to the game.

Point being, I suspect they will pick and chose tiny aspects of the document and then state with much fanfare that "we listened!" while, as the PTS makes clear, doing their own thing and missing the point of what their players and customers actually want...just like always.

Edited by Bud Crue, 26 July 2018 - 05:15 AM.

[Bwah Ha Ha]

First do you realize that the ER stands for extended range for all lasers, lowering the range of the medium is just weird.
Second small lasers (of all classes) were meant to be short range, quick duration, low heat and low damage.

I am fairly new and have dropped some bucks already on this game. But lately I have noticed it taking a lot longer to find a game which means you are losing your player base. I am now of the opinion that it is not worth spending anymore until I see if your game survives. I have seen this happen with other games where the dev's mucked up the playability so bad it was no longer worth playing.

[MovinTarget]

Just a thought... why can't you expand on boat penalties instead of making it all about heat?
Instead of pure GH, where applicable reduce GH and add "ghost duration" or "ghost damage reduction" with the logic that, kind of like energy draw, you are redlining the output of your reactor, making your weapons perform below optimal specs.

Heck, for giggles, make the effects random, to discourage alphas. Making big alphas equally distasteful for both veterans and noobs.

This could be applied to other weapons as needed in the form of "Ghost spread", "Ghost jamming", etc...

I know some people hate the idea of ghost heat, but if there are varied consequences to boating, it doesn't have to be solely a head penalty.

Alright, flame me, I know you wanna....

[ZortPointNarf]

Navid A1, on 26 July 2018 - 04:52 AM, said:

1- Define "meta warriors". That balance sheet is the final result of feedback from hundreds of players (both veterans and new players)

2- define that "game information" that we don't have. On the contrary, WE have something THEY don't have... and its gameplay experience! and the ins and outs of how each mechs/weapon/build is played.

3- Extremely Arrogant?... seriously?
Imagine your car has a problem with the engine and when you bring it in for repairs, the mechanic punches holes in all of the tires, then tries to fix them with duct tape, then charges you full price for an engine service. In such a case, would you be extremely arrogant if you complain??!!

• The build of the month, dakka reigns, that is all they run, ppc+gauss in season again, guess what they run. I run goof builds (akin to what Snuggle Times does) I find that enjoyable ( I know it very much not everyone's cup-a -tea). I don't object to meta, not at all, but the very nature of meta is that it exploits the most viable build to the max, kudos, but then don't get pissed if they have to nerf it as it throws the entire balance out of whack. I reviewed the "conclusions" from the effort, and its a bloody valiant effort, but it misses quite a bit of data and in some (very few instances) misses the plot completely, and in other nails it perfectly. I would rather rock up to battle in an Adder than an insta-gib KDK3 back in its heydays, personal preference.
  
• Game-play experience is a very valid missing metric, they have individual damage per tick data across all the mechs, if you only have say 20 mechs your exposure is very limited. Then to add to all of it there is the tier system, that changes what works on a mech and when. For some reason I find EU Wednesdays to be a total potatopocapypse, who knows why. They have game play data, other than comp mode the community has very limited access to game data, and 8v8 is not 12v12 (also makes one wonder about the validity of the 4v4 PTS)
  
• That example is extreme, a very "muh weapons" reaction, a closer analogy would be said mechanic breaking off one of the spark plugs in the head, or bend a bracket. Sometimes trying to fix something you inadvertently break something else. They are not complete muppets, and the absurd view illustrated by the example is kind of indicative of the toxicity they deal with in their community when they are making minor changes, they are not asking you to donate a kidney when you go for a dental checkup.

Aside from this, I think removing the -expletive- particles from smoke on all the maps will go a long way to solving people's frame issues, and with that reduce the hit registration issues. The introduction of decals and now bolt-ons did nothing for people's frames, and lets not even get started on the cryengine, its probably called that as it will make you cry. Rain on Solaris City, lmfao, I run a 1080ti and I drop a solid 50 frames once that loads up. Cosmetics are one thing, but performance should take a bit more of a priority. My 2 cents.

[tee5]

Just bring the numbers of the community based spreadsheet
to the Public Test Server.

And I mean all numbers, exactly like they are in that spreadsheet. And proof read it. Because the post of PGI is full of errors.

Edit: Spelling

Edited by tee5, 26 July 2018 - 12:37 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

-Ramrod-, on 25 July 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

Please abandon this. Nobody wants it and it's not necessary.

Speak for yourself. The laser vomit is boring and dull and too easy to do (especially idiot-proof builds like the laser vomit Hellbringer). A nerf is long overdue. The smaller laser shouldn't be touched, though, and that an MPL has a longer duration than an ERML is just stupid - especially lore-wise

That being said: with the nerf of the smaller lasers Clan light mechs will be in problems. They often do not have the quirks nor mobility of IS lights

Edited by Bush Hopper, 26 July 2018 - 06:42 AM.

[Nelos Kniven]

Much better way of going about it. Clan weapons are still different from IS weapons. This is good. Also, I believe you meant "Slephnir," as well as "variant."

[shameless]

Thanks for making it easy to keep on not giving you any money pgi..