280 replies to this topic

[WarmasterRaptor]

Kill2Blit, on 26 July 2018 - 08:54 AM, said:

alphas should still be an option, just not a sustainable one. I'd like to see a proper heat system, with stricter but more predictable trade-offs to discourage high alpha spam while also giving experienced players a way to know their mech and get better using it, instead of random effects.

Predictability = no real risk, no real trade off as the meta will be built just around it...

Nice try

[D34DMetal]

Basically it's like this: "Oh you all hated the first round of balance changes, so we made some more balance changes while completely disregarding the community feedback about what balance changes the community wants to see, and we implemented our very own balance changes that still suck."

I'm literally rolling on the floor laughing. How hard is it to actually listen to your player-base and take their suggestions seriously? THIS is probably one of the many reasons why some players feel alienated. It certainly feels that way to me. Non of these proposed changes seem to account for suggestions made by the players who are testing the changes.

[PobbestGob]

WarmasterRaptor, on 26 July 2018 - 09:03 AM, said:

Predictability = no real risk, no real trade off as the meta will be built just around it...

Nice try

with heat scale and a set number of linked groups that can be built around like you said, sure. but nobody can build their way out of a lower heat capacity or stronger penalties upon overheating or approaching it.

[MovinTarget]

WarmasterRaptor, on 26 July 2018 - 09:03 AM, said:

Predictability = no real risk, no real trade off as the meta will be built just around it...

Nice try

Exactly, giving the extreme case a random effect prevents smart players from simply building around it. If I am not mistaken Alpha strikes were last-resort options in TT with consequences that could not be fully anticipated. You only did it because whatever the result, it was better than rolling over and dying.

Right now we have people that know EXACTLY how many consecutive alphas they can get off on any given map before they run the risk of heat dmg. I will concede that that takes a certain amount of preparation, skill, and understanding of game mechanics. IT ISN'T CHEATING. I will admit that I find it boring. Like last week when I joined the LRM protest and brought nuttin but lurms for days. Freaking boring for me, but some others seem to get off on it. I get it.

The problem is that there is no way in regular games (QP/FP) to separate the tryhards from the casuals. In a way, adding a randomness to the extreme end of the offensive spectrum would act a bit more like a equalizer.

If alpha abuse is curtailed, would TTK not improve to some degree?

If we only penalized the high alpha, wouldn't learning better fire discipline be rewarded?
Sure the pros at alpha-ing could still strut as then learn the maximum efficient pattern for firing weapons while avoiding these penalties, but to me that's an even more admirable skill than "spam spam spam hide spam hide spam"

Again, give each weapon-type a set of possible penalties if they are fired as part of an "offending" volley:

(Heats a given, so I don't mention it below)
Beam Penalties:

• Range (shorter)
  
• Duration (longer)
  
• Damage (lower)
  
• Cooldown (longer)

PPC Penalties

• Range (shorter)
  
• Damage (lower)
  
• Velocity (lower)
  
• Cooldown (longer)

Missiles

• Spread (more/negation of Artemis)
  
• Accuracy (reduced)
  
• Cooldown (Longer since you are trying to feed so many tubes at once)

AC/Gauss

• Charge Time (increased) or random delay in actual release
  
• Cooldown (increased)
  
• Etc etc etc

I would also give MG boats a RoF nerf past X weapons to slow down crit chance and dmg...

I'm spitballin here...

[Hydraden]

You guys made a typo it says "Large Pulse Laser Duration Increased to 1.3 from 1.9"

Edited by Hydraden, 26 July 2018 - 05:44 PM.

[PobbestGob]

MovinTarget, on 26 July 2018 - 09:32 AM, said:

Exactly, giving the extreme case a random effect prevents smart players from simply building around it. If I am not mistaken Alpha strikes were last-resort options in TT with consequences that could not be fully anticipated. You only did it because whatever the result, it was better than rolling over and dying.

etc

I agree with some of those effects when running hot and am fine with there being some degree of randomness to it, what the problem would be if the degree of randomness was too high though is it would take more skill out of the game and leave results up to RNG. This "great equalizer between tryhards and casuals" removes the incentive to get better at the game, and if taken too far can make circle clicking pilots just as effective as those who know how to aim, twist, position, and trade. Shooters shouldn't play like a tabletop board game. Randomness can add flavor but it shouldn't be relied on as a balancing mechanism.

[MovinTarget]

Kill2Blit, on 26 July 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

I agree with some of those effects when running hot and am fine with there being some degree of randomness to it, what the problem would be if the degree of randomness was too high though is it would take more skill out of the game and leave results up to RNG. This "great equalizer between tryhards and casuals" removes the incentive to get better at the game, and if taken too far can make circle clicking pilots just as effective as those who know how to aim, twist, position, and trade. Shooters shouldn't play like a tabletop board game. Randomness can add flavor but it shouldn't be relied on as a balancing mechanism.

It would replace the skill of high alpha heat management with the a multitude of skills that you have to acquire when you can't drop your enemy in 2-3 shots and retreat to cool off.

I'm *not* saying MASSIVE randomness where all of those factors are in play, but rather enough that you wouldn't want to build your mech around doing repeated alphas, since suddenly after the first alpha your weapons are out of sync, or you find you are not doing the full amount of damage b/c you pushed your mech too hard. The point is that if you are pushing your mech beyond the safe levels of operations you are surrendering some control of the outcome. Where as those that learn to be disciplined in managing their fire can get better performance from the same weapons. Oh crap, that would make this a "Thinking man's shooter" nvm!

Edited by MovinTarget, 26 July 2018 - 09:59 AM.

[PobbestGob]

MovinTarget, on 26 July 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

It would replace the skill of high alpha heat management with the a multitude of skills that you have to acquire when you can't drop your enemy in 2-3 shots and retreat to cool off.

I'm *not* saying MASSIVE randomness where all of those factors are in play, but rather enough that you wouldn't want to build your mech around doing repeated alphas, since suddenly after the first alpha your weapons are out of sync, or you find you are not doing the full amount of damage b/c you pushed your mech too hard. The point is that if you are pushing your mech beyond the safe levels of operations you are surrendering some control of the outcome. Where as those that learn to be disciplined in managing their fire can get better performance from the same weapons. Oh crap, that would make this a "Thinking man's shooter" nvm!

Removing high alpha spam can be done much more simply by reducing the massive heat capacities we have, increasing heat dissipation, and a few penalties when hot/overheated. Then balancing weapon stats around the new heat. Similar but with a higher skill ceiling imo. Even so none of this is likely to be implemented as we're six years in now.

[Quandoo]

Another part of overpower it, sell it, nerf it.
Expecially the expensive IS assaults.

[Ninjah]

Well it did cost me a fortune to fit AMS on ALL of my IS mechs (new XL/light engines to accomodate the extra weight). It has become an absolute necessity which is ok to some extent - it has a purpose now. It feels like everyone is still riding the LRM hype train, luckily AMS is in a good spot now - do not touch. LAMS on the other hand is still way too hot to be useful for any other purpose but selfish defense in the most dire situations. Not using, thank you, I'd rather lose a heat sink to AMS ammo then put LAMS in my mech. LUCKILY for me I'm sitting on a pile of Cbills from the module refund. People who don't have +50.000.000 Cbills are pretty screw3d now tho. So if your plan is to level the playing field by draining vets from their funds - well it's working. Most will quit tho. New people are going to be horrified by the sheer amount of grinding needed to fix their builds back to the competitive level. I suggest you put up some BEEFY Cbill rewards ASAP or everyone leaves. Hope you understand. Cheers.

[Cypherdrene]

How to fix MWO and also get rid of ghost heat:

1- Greatly reduce overall heat capacity: Less powerful back-to-back alphas, have to fully cool down. Heatsinks can still increase the thermal capacity though a limit should be set.

This idea is akin to the Energy Draw system proposed way back when, it was a good idea, but didn't fly as it was hard-capped for all mechs.

2- Greatly increase heat dissipation: Why? becase "Heat sinks, while sharing names with real world passive radiators found in computers, are actually complete heat pumps, not "true" heat sinks in the engineering sense" <Sarna.net>... so it's an active cooling system, it's meant to cool as fast as it heats up (this is true for CPU's and GPU's and even engines)

This would bring back the energy knife-fights Clans are known for.

3- TT/Lore damage values: Though just to make it fair, Clan lasers should be 20% stronger, not 30% as Lore indicates. Though bump Clan heat too:
Type - Lore - MWO
ERSL - 2 - 3
ERML - 5 - 6
HSL - 3 - 4
HML - 7 - 8

Heavy lasers are very niche and ofter overlooked, cooldown IMHO should be the same as the ER versions to make them more of a choice and not a way to fill available tonnage. It'd balance itself out since they're so hot and can't be fired so quickly as it'd hit thermal capacity very fast. The reduced range is of course a self explained drawback.

Large Lasers in general should be same as Lore as mechs would cool down much faster with the system above. This would also apply for PPC's, only (IS) ERPPC's being the least efficient per point of damage, though maybe 12 heat rather than 15 (Lore) cause thats crazy.

4- All Gauss Rifles should have recoil: though very minimal, greater recoil for HGR.

5- Duration (update): Please stop messing with these, if anything, Clan lasers could take 10% more time to burn compared to IS, not this crazy 20%-40%

Not my original idea, but it's what makes the most sense. Anyone is welcome to improve upon it.

-Shameless repost AGAIN, since its my most liked post EVER, woot woot... and also because this would actually be a true Test to the game mechanics-

Edited by Cypherdrene, 26 July 2018 - 10:46 AM.

[MovinTarget]

Kill2Blit, on 26 July 2018 - 10:08 AM, said:

Removing high alpha spam can be done much more simply by reducing the massive heat capacities we have, increasing heat dissipation, and a few penalties when hot/overheated. Then balancing weapon stats around the new heat. Similar but with a higher skill ceiling imo. Even so none of this is likely to be implemented as we're six years in now.

I agree, but since it is a simple heat cap, there has to be consideration for the boating of low/non-heat weapons.... Right now if you drop the the heat scale to curtail high heat high alpha builds, I suspect the salt over dual HG will become even more voluminous...

[MovinTarget]

Cypherdrene, on 26 July 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

How to fix MWO and also get rid of ghost heat:

1- Greatly reduce overall heat capacity: Less powerful back-to-back alphas, have to fully cool down. Heatsinks can still increase the thermal capacity though a limit should be set.

This idea is akin to the Energy Draw system proposed way back when, it was a good idea, but didn't fly as it was hard-capped for all mechs.

2- Greatly increase heat dissipation: Why? becase "Heat sinks, while sharing names with real world passive radiators found in computers, are actually complete heat pumps, not "true" heat sinks in the engineering sense" <Sarna.net>... so it's an active cooling system, it's meant to cool as fast as it heats up (this is true for CPU's and GPU's and even engines)

This would bring back the energy knife-fights Clans are known for.

3- TT/Lore damage values: Though just to make it fair, Clan lasers should be 20% stronger, not 30% as Lore indicates. Though bump Clan heat too:
Type - Lore - MWO
ERSL - 2 - 3
ERML - 5 - 6
HSL - 3 - 4
HML - 7 - 8

Heavy lasers are very niche and ofter overlooked, cooldown IMHO should be the same as the ER versions to make them more of a choice and not a way to fill available tonnage. It'd balance itself out since they're so hot and can't be fired so quickly as it'd hit thermal capacity very fast. The reduced range is of course a self explained drawback.

Large Lasers in general should be same as Lore as mechs would cool down much faster with the system above. This would also apply for PPC's, only (IS) ERPPC's being the least efficient per point of damage, though maybe 12 heat rather than 15 (Lore) cause thats crazy.

4- All Gauss Rifles should have recoil: though very minimal, greater recoil for HGR.


Not my original idea, but it's what makes the most sense. Anyone is welcome to improve upon it.

-Shameless repost AGAIN, since its my most liked post EVER, woot woot... and also because this would actually be a true Test to the game mechanics-

again heatscale nerf would probably merit a comparable nerf of non/low heat weapons. If you are running dual HG, recoil doesn't really bother you since your now-superior 50 pinpoint volley is already on the way by the time your reticule starts shaking... It wouldn't even bother tri/quad Gauss too much

Vomit needs to be viable, just not abused.

[SPNKRGrenth]

I'll reserve any real judgement until the new PTS goes live. But I will say, it'd be nice to see some small IS laser buffs get tested too. Such as higher damage for IS small - ER small - small pulse lasers, and lower IS ER medium laser heat. Lets bring up the bottom tier and lower tier weapons to be middle ground performers.

My initial thoughts:
C-ER smalls: Why is this getting nerfed? Buff IS smalls instead.
C-ER mediums: Much better than last PTS. I don't get the shorter range, but to it's credit, max range is stays the same. Cooldown should stay at 4 seconds, the longer laser duration covers lower DPS.
C-ER larges: You still need to lower heat so it's less than the damage, even if it's 9.9 heat.
C-Medium pulses: Seems like okay numbers to test. Except for that duration, 1.17 is nuts when large pulses are at 1.2. Just go 1.1 duration instead.
C-Large pulses: They did 11 damage in the PTS, not 10. Just a typo? Slightly lower heat still needs to be tested to go with the lower damage.
C-Heavy mediums: Why did that damage go back up to 10? Why not try 9 damage as a middle ground?
C-Heavy larges: A duration nerf instead of a damage nerf sounds good, though that doesn't reduce the extra high alphas they allow. Would like to see 16 damage with 14.5 heat tested.

Not seen here:
C-Small pulses: This is a PTS, seriously just try out 5 damage. Nerf duration, cooldown, and heat to compensate.
C-Heavy smalls: These things really need a range buff. 130m optimal with 260m max would go a long way.

The laser duration nerfs as a whole: I prefer this type of nerf being tested, heck it's what I wanted to see tried out as soon as Clan laser vomit was talked about getting nerfed. Keep in mind that clan lasers got their duration buffed TWICE, which ends up making them overperform with all the new tech. Once back in 2016 with the energy weapon rebalance, when all clan lasers got their duration buffed by roughly 10%, and again through the introduction of the new skill tree, when you can skill into another 10% duration reduction. Clan ER smalls used to have a duration of 1.2 seconds, ER mediums 1.35 seconds, and ER larges 1.5 seconds.

Edited by SPNKRGrenth, 26 July 2018 - 11:17 AM.

[Cypherdrene]

MovinTarget, on 26 July 2018 - 10:47 AM, said:

again heatscale nerf would probably merit a comparable nerf of non/low heat weapons. If you are running dual HG, recoil doesn't really bother you since your now-superior 50 pinpoint volley is already on the way by the time your reticule starts shaking... It wouldn't even bother tri/quad Gauss too much

Vomit needs to be viable, just not abused.

Thanks for the reply.

While I agree GR's recoil is basically useless, if they're so set on doing so, let them do it, just not over-do-it. Battletech's solution (2nd shot has a % to miss due to recoil) is elegant but may not play all that well here. So... yeah, this one is hard if you're set on nerfing GR's.

Heat CAPACITY nerfs would clearly limit PGI's favorite hate-topic -the +66 laser alpha of Clan mechs-, it disrupts the ability to do back to back +66 alphas even if you were to cool faster than before, so rather than two alphas, just one. IF said mech gets engaged at closer range, alpha striking would most certainly turn the mech into a turret even if HALF the weapons were fired again. I'm still thinking on how to limit the output of "Boogeyman" builds.

Low heat builds such as 2x10UAC's are EASY AF to manage and constantly deal over 600 dmg, my Huntsman can do it without heatsinks and while it does get hot it has no backup weapons, a limitation to the build, as it should be.

EDIT: I forgot about MG's, specially the PIR's... this one is also hard to give balance to, MG's are incredibly powerful if used properly, so perhaps PGI could remove the crit chance altogether. ERSL builds are IMHO inferior to MG's and require a lot of skill to pull off, the majority of mechs boating them are Lights with a few exceptions, a hard class to pilot anyway, so if you have the skill, then you deserve being OP.

My post is not the definitive answer, thus it needs testing and refinement. Don't take it as absolute.

Edited by Cypherdrene, 26 July 2018 - 11:37 AM.

[HammerMaster]

Garbage.
I read all this Mish mash of numbers and it just blurs to me.
What I DO READ is gauss recoil. Ok. Still has charge up. GARBAGE. One or the other. End of story. (Preferable recoil and pave the way to ALL ballistic recoil)
Removal of those IS mech defensive quirks? Baffling. Simply baffling.
And for the last ***** flipping time: clans don't balance vs IS! Stop it!

Edited by HammerMaster, 26 July 2018 - 11:31 AM.

[ApexSun]

While it is nice that PGI is responding to the overwhelming negative feedback that the first proposed Alpha Nerf received, here's a better idea: LEAVE THE BALANCE ALONE WHILE WE STILL HAVE SOME PLAYERS LEFT. I play both sides and I feel it is already acceptable. Each side has their own flavor or identity. Brawly IS mechs packed with ballistics and missiles versus sneaky high alpha clan mechs poking at mid range. The data from Faction Play alone should tell everyone that good pilots win with either side or else planets would be falling to one side or another every night. The 1.1 nerf brings a new round of BS though:

I PAID REAL MONEY for the Bushwhacker Standard Pack. I PAID REAL MONEY for the Fafnir Standard Pack. I PAID REAL MONEY for the CP-S Sleipnir mech and was about to purchase a second until I read this. I like to support the game and I have done so through my wallet and this is the acknowledgement that I get from PGI? You can't keep nerfing things that people buy after they have a certain expectation of what that product is, NOT EVEN FOR THE SAKE OF BALANCE. What if you got to drive your nice new Corvette around for a new months and then you read an email from GM that says "We do not feel that it is fair that our car can go faster than the rest of the traffic so we are going to send a signal to their ECU that will limit them to only using six cylinders." Would you be upset? Would you want your money back? There was a protest by a large number of competitive Clash of Clan players that were upset about this very thing and it was held up by Apple. They were refunded every dime that they ever gave to Supercell. It would be ridiculous if things went that far here as well. That's not what I want. That's not what the community wants.

When you create something great that you share with the masses, it stops being yours. It belongs to the community and you have an obligation as its keeper. Stop screwing with the game. Just let us play and maybe some of the pilots that we have lost over the last few months will come back. Pretty Please.

Edited by ApexSun, 26 July 2018 - 12:58 PM.

[StahlJagdhund337]

The Clan weapons can be fixed just by reducing thier reducing heat, lessening duration, or increasing damage. One of those. The Inner Sphere mechs do not need to be nerfed. Just give them a rival clan mech at the same weight with Increased firepower or defense. The Direwolf is a prime example that needs an upgrade. It has too low armor for a 100 ton mech. Increase the armor to give the Annihilator
a rival. Increase the damage output on the Direwolf by giving it good weapon quirks.

Why is the solution to balacing always nerfing? You destroy the play style of the mech when you nerf it making the mech unwanted and not fun. The best alternative is to give a rival to the mech that is over powered by giving that rival mech better offensive or defensive quirks.


When giving a boost to clan weapons please do not trade something for it. Say you give more damage to a weapon but give it longer duration. No, just give it more damage. You essentially
nerf the damage by increasing duration.

[PobbestGob]

Just realized the LPL is getting the damage nerf and the duration nerf instead of one or the other rip

[StahlJagdhund337]

I don't know why people are complaining about alpha damage. The main mech that takes advantage of it is the Hellbringer. The mech is not over powered. Everyone's solution is to nerf stuff. Quit Nerfing! It doesn't always need to be the solution. When I play I am not bothered by the alpha damage of any mech. Just get better at playing. If you can't beat something it is not always the solution to nerf it to make the game better.