1169 replies to this topic

[Isaiah Kell]

Brauer, on 11 January 2020 - 11:42 AM, said:

You do realize that the top clan ERLL mech also has a range quirk? And that basically across the board strong ERLL traders bring a big TC (including on clan side!)? And I'd add that for an ERLL/CERLL mech you also invest in range nodes in the skill tree.

Why do you have a problem with this recipe? Even if IS ERLL get a buff that will only retain the power difference between the optimal ERLL traders, and less optimal mechs. As an example, do you want to remove the big TC from this recipe? There are a few ways to do that. Like to either a) remove the beam range boost from all TCs, b ) remove TCs entirely, or c) decrease the boost provided by a bigger TC, maybe cap it at TC2 level or something. With TCs in their current state unless IS ERLL get a huge range boost having a big TC will still be a big advantage when ERLL trading.

Additionally, if you buff IS ERLL across the board you will still see the BLR-1G, STK-5S, GHR-5H (and other GHRs), VL-5T, BJ-3, and any other IS mechs with relevant quirks and decent or good mounts (as well as the ANH-1P) dominate other IS mechs that can run ERLL because they'll have those quirks PLUS whatever baseline improvement.

Think about it, say you boost IS ERLL base range to 800. That means with the 10% quirk you reach out to 880. With skill nodes I think you can get another 10-15% range iirc. So you're reaching out to like 960-1000m. Add whatever it is, 5-10% from a big TC and your optimal is over 1,000m. That 10% quirk is still relevant since a lot of ERLL trading occurs between like 1,000 and 1,300m.

Similarly, having good hardpoints and geometry isn't going to change. The BLR-1G, STK-5S, and ANH-1P aren't going to suddenly not be excellent ERLL mechs unless either a) they are nerfed into the ground, b ) other mechs get some kind of mega-quirks to compensate for bad geometry and/or hardpoints), or c) models and/or hardpoints on either current meta-mechs are nerfed, or buffed on whatever mechs it is that you want buffed.

Your idea to give IS ERLL a buff because they are largely used for long range trading on a few mechs doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. IS can use regular LL for laser vomit, so the natural place for ERLL is ERLL trading or (maybe?) gaussvomit. In the case of ERLL trading IS have enough good mechs for those roles that perform very well. The weapon and the variants are filling a niche, so what's the problem?

1. Because it confounds new players. You have to be a math wiz and/or a game veteran to even stand a chance building a sniper mech. Let's not forget this is probably the most complicated interface and game ever made that I am aware of except maybe Digital Combat Simulator.

2. Because with how often snipers are the best mech to bring, it's a shame that there are very few that are up to the task. Either buff the IS erll or buff a couple mechs to give us some diversity. Makes the drop deck boring and never able to be changed from anything that doesn't meet the recipe (again, very short list)

914m is maximum optimum range for IS erll. Show me a new player that actually yields that. Just one. show me one. You can't.

get good--all for it. We make pilots better every day, and it shows in their scores.

problem is-----> get good=make friends who can teach you this very very specific limited recipe. It is not very welcoming to new players at all and therefore makes sniping a very unattractive part of the game for the people who PGI (theoretically) is most wanting to attract for economic reasons.

Edited by Isaiah Kell, 12 January 2020 - 10:43 AM.

[Prototelis]

Isaiah Kell, on 12 January 2020 - 10:12 AM, said:

Because it confounds new players. You have to be a math wiz and a game veteran to even stand a chance building a sniper mech.

lol wut

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get good--all for it. We make pilots better every day, and it shows in their scores.

no

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problem is-----> get good=make friends who can teach you this very very specific limited recipe. It is not very welcoming to new players at all and therefore makes sniping a very unattractive part of the game for the people who PGI (theoretically) is most wanting to attract for economic reasons.

lol wut

[SneekiBreeki]

>Not only quoting Paul but also pretending that he or for that matter PGI in general will even care to read or do something about the game at all in 2020.



Besides IS ERLLs don't need any buffs, they're more than fine but also "Clan Advantage maps". Really? REALLY?

Dude, try running actual optimal IS ERLL boats on those maps, like the ERLL Stalker. You can pretty much sit atop the mountain in the middle and abuse the high mounts to your heart's content.

Not only that but the Stalker's arm mounted ERLLs allow you to engage mechs that are far below your, thus being unable to retaliate for they lack the pitch necessary to look up to your position.

As for Polar you can safely run both BLRs and STKs just fine on it.

[Isaiah Kell]

sniper map=clan advantage

Your "lol wut" has no logical argument, proto. All your lol wut is doing is clogging up the forum with irrelevant crap.

IS erll mechs are a very short list that can get the 914m optimum. This is crap game balancing. Buff it a little, what's clan max optimum? yeah

Edited by Isaiah Kell, 12 January 2020 - 10:39 AM.

[SneekiBreeki]

You do realize that you NEVER fight at your max range right?

You do slowly advance till you get into optimal and trade from there...

Besides if those maps gave clans a clear advantage how come the lot of us plus other units/groups/individuals can outtrade clans while dropping in IS ERLL boats just fine?

[hypographia]

Okay, so I rarely comment here, and typically avoid this whole arena like the plague, however…

I’ve just rekindled my love of FP, and am progressing each day (even made my first drop call this past week, to death of many, many fellow mechwarriors, but something something if you wanna make omlettes…), so I have an, albeit recently “re-upped”, investment in this particular game mode.

I see no reason to change any of the objective details, nor is there a compelling reason to rebalance/nerf/buff any current mech in the game for one simple reason:

Your playstyle will stagnate if you dictate changes in the game from the dev side.

I’m 100% for fixing heat glitches, buggy maps, even making the dropships more equitable to both sides. But asking devs to up timers on a game mode because in reality it doesn’t fit 1) your playstyle, or 2) your ideal opinion as to how the game is played, is only harming you as a player. The point of these differences in objectives, and in fact in mech abilities, is to encourage experimentation and hopefully make you a better player. If all you ever want to do is talk smack after a 48-28 game, then I’m sure I speak for all ~400 of us who still play this game that you are NOT the type of player we are after. And I imagine that, though it’d be biting the hand that feeds, even the devs would agree, especially from the POV of attracting any new players to this game.

• If you hate a cap spider rush, then plan accordingly to keep a few mechs back at base to negate that very narrow ability of an otherwise forgettable mech and equally risky strat. (It can be beaten)
  
• If you hate clan erll, then plan for it by rushing them under ecm/cover/en masse or otherwise negating that strat. (it can be beaten)
  
• If you hate lurms and narcs, you make that call while you have time before the match and drop accordingly. (it can be beaten)
  
• If you hate losing in conquest because the other side dropped a lance of fast lights, then counter that strat. (it can be beaten)

My point is: asking the devs to change mech or game mechanics to suit YOU is only hurting your ability as a player in the long run, and not helping the game in the long run.

I for one, WANT some disparity between maps, mechs, and objectives. If everything were balanced “perfectly” we’d build a set number of drop decks and then simply rinse and repeat. Boring. I want to be challenged by having to defend the indefensible, mapwise. I want to be challenged by having to create a strat/deck to deal with superior firepower. Isn’t that how REAL combat works anyways?

What is the eventual conclusion of this sort of “X is OP, plz nerf” path? You’ll have “perfectly” balanced mechs with no quirks, no uniqueness, and all the objective-based maps will be secondary to a race to 48.

The last thing FP needs is to reduce the gaps in mechs and objectives. No one currently playing wants or requires “easy mode” if they really examine themselves and what they enjoy about the game.

Do you love a 48-28 stomp? No, and if you do, it has all the lasting joy of a piece of candy: soon forgotten and no real added value to you as a pilot. Do you love defeating an overpowering team? Yes. Do you even love forcing an overpowering team to abandon their race to 48 and fall back on objectives? Yes. Do you love a 48-44 loss? I have to admit I DO, because that meant it was a close game, and even in that loss, there’s plenty of good experience/intel/AARing that can build us up as players.

In short, with what little dev attention PGI can afford to focus on this game, it should 100% be spent on fixing bugs, fixing glitches, fixing any exploits, and helping to get the gametimes down to a more reasonable level. In terms of trying to balance mechs and maps to suit the opinions/wants of anyone? No. We all need to refocus on why we play the game and look to challenges as a good thing: an opportunity to make ourselves better pilots.

[/rant]

Edited by hypographia, 12 January 2020 - 11:04 AM.

[Prototelis]

Isaiah Kell, on 12 January 2020 - 10:39 AM, said:

sniper map=clan advantage

No. lol.

IS ERLL mechs have a very small advantage.

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Your "lol wut" has no logical argument, proto. All your lol wut is doing is clogging up the forum with irrelevant crap.

lol wut

Try making logical arguments.

Quote

IS erll mechs are a very short list that can get the 914m optimum.

The range difference isn't significant when you're talking a 5 laser alpha dump vs at best a very hot 4 laser alpha?

Can u no math?

I guess while we're here we can disregard that the BLR has more health a better hill poking profile or that the ANH has god armor and one of the best hill peak profiles in the ******* game.

Edited by Prototelis, 12 January 2020 - 11:22 AM.

[Brauer]

Isaiah Kell, on 12 January 2020 - 10:12 AM, said:

1. Because it confounds new players. You have to be a math wiz and/or a game veteran to even stand a chance building a sniper mech. Let's not forget this is probably the most complicated interface and game ever made that I am aware of except maybe Digital Combat Simulator.

2. Because with how often snipers are the best mech to bring, it's a shame that there are very few that are up to the task. Either buff the IS erll or buff a couple mechs to give us some diversity. Makes the drop deck boring and never able to be changed from anything that doesn't meet the recipe (again, very short list)

914m is maximum optimum range for IS erll. Show me a new player that actually yields that. Just one. show me one. You can't.

get good--all for it. We make pilots better every day, and it shows in their scores.

problem is-----> get good=make friends who can teach you this very very specific limited recipe. It is not very welcoming to new players at all and therefore makes sniping a very unattractive part of the game for the people who PGI (theoretically) is most wanting to attract for economic reasons.

1) As I said arbitrarily buffing IS ERLL will NOT impact the recipe for building an optimal IS ERLL mech. It will just increase the power of IS ERLL traders relative to clan ones (they're pretty equal right now, with IS better in assaults and clan better in heavies imo). Buffing the weapon system as a whole won't make more chassis viable relative to the optimal mechs. As I stated you would need to either nerf the current optimal solutions to the ground, or buff other variants. I really don't think you are considering balance as a whole, you're just asking for IS to receive a straight buff, which really isn't needed.

On the same point, the whole mech lab confounds new players. Arbitrarily buffing a good-performing weapon would not change the recipe for optimal IS ERLL traders and as such would not be any less confounding to new players. The reality is that building any optimal mech, running any optimal strat, or playing in anything like an optimal manner is confounding to new players. That doesn't mean that a particular weapon needs a buff, it just means that information needs to be presented better in-game. I'll also add it's not that hard to connect with strong players and learn from them if you want to. A new player can pop into the MWO Comp discord and if they ask for an optimal long range trading mech I guarantee they will get a mechdb or smurfy link, and they might even get a build code, within the day. And the build will be excellent.

2) When we're talking about optimal solutions to a problem, the problem being building an ERLL trader, very small differences can mean a lot. That's why at the top level of the game you see a lot of teams bringing the exact same variants as ERLL traders. Any small difference in hardpoint location, hardpoint numbers, quirks, tonnage, profile, etc. can be the difference between an optimal solution and a sub-optimal one. I listed a bunch of good IS ERLL mechs in my post. It wasn't just the two that you brought up in your post. I'd urge you to take a look at those as well, because the options are greater than you imply. The only way I see a blanket buff to IS ERLL increasing the number of viable chassis is if that buff is sufficient to make them relatively OP such that you can bring trash mechs and still be effective. That's not exactly a good idea for game balance.

3) Max range for IS ERLL is fine. You've got superior alpha against clan, shorter burn times, and tankier mechs. You just have to use those advantages. New players will make tons of mistakes. Arbitrarily buffing IS ERLL will not suddenly make their builds better, it'll just be a crutch. In fact I bet most new players won't build a straight IS ERLL boat at all. They'll likely make a bracket build with maybe one ERLL on it. Does that mean that either those builds should get giga-buffs so they can compete, or does that mean the mechlab should be turned off and we should all just run champion builds? Making game balance changes solely to suit new players isn't a great idea. Instead I'd argue that the grind should be eased for new players, trial mechs should actually have decent builds and have at least some skill points, and information should be better presented. Changes like that which fundamentally alter the NPE will do much more to help them than a buff to one weapon to offset limited understanding of the game.

4) I don't know why you implied that I told you to get good. I didn't do that and I generally try to avoid telling people to get good. It's not terribly constructive. I would urge you to think more deeply about how this buff to ERLL would play out, and I do think you're asking for a self-serving buff to IS. FYI I play both IS and Clan mechs, and I actually prefer the IS ERLL traders (and I played them a bunch in MWOWCS). I go to whichever side has fewer players and I think the ERLL balance is pretty decent right now. I look forward to bringing my Stalkers, Battlemasters, and Anni. Getting a sniper map is not an automatic clan advantage.

Oh, and BTW getting a brawly map does make for a bit of an IS advantage.

[justcallme A S H]

Lol IS ERL sooking again...

Yet in the 2019 Worlds IS ERL Assaults were the most common choice with Stalkers and Battlemasterse everywhere.

Something does not compute here because the reality is they are favored at the top level, so how can they be bad?

Stop gen rushing, stop blaming EVERYTHING else and start looking at your own play. A "training regime" that's been "checked by many pilots" is no good if it's fundamentally broken and wrong. And that's the issue with some units. They lack the basic understanding of the Mechlab and how to play the game... Until they accept that they are wrong - take the advice being given to them - they will forever be trodden upon.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 12 January 2020 - 02:56 PM.

[Nightbird]

Everyone knows that when you lose, it's because the game is unfair, and when you win, it's because you're a rock star.

[Rustyhammer]

Isaiah Kell, on 12 January 2020 - 10:39 AM, said:

sniper map=clan advantage

This is an example of how 12 man HHOD plays long range map vs disorganised pugs.

They all sat on the same mountain for 20 minutes refusing to move anywhere and ran back to the drop zone close to the end of the match to preserve the kill lead.

Problem is not in IS/Clan range disparity, problem is in HHOD gameplay.

Isaiah Kell, on 12 January 2020 - 10:12 AM, said:

We make pilots better every day, and it shows in their scores.

Can you please tell us more using the example above?

[justcallme A S H]

Lol @ make pilots better. I missed that one, good pickup Rusty.

I'd say actively make pilots WORSE is a far more accurate statement.


And yeah, good to see 12mans hiding in dropzones. Strong play.

[Vxheous]

Isaiah Kell talks about the "handful" of IS mechs capable of using ERLL well, but conveniently ignores that the same goes for clan. Only clan mechs you see boating ERLLs are Mad IIc, Hellbringers and the occasional Hunchback IIc-A and Blood Asp. Just like IS sees Battlemasters, Stalkers, Grasshoppers, Warhammers, and Annihilator.

Of those clan mechs, only the Hero Hellbringer really has the overall range advantage, and advantage is like ~40m. Yes, the Virago can push clan ERLL out to 999m with max TC, but faction play is such a target rich environment that its often better to just run a smaller TC and more heatsinks.

Winning and losing long ranged ERLL trades has less to do with IS or Clan, and everything to do with trading technique. Proper positioning (aka maximising your teams firing angles while minimizing return fire angles) determine if you win or lose your trade when you expose. This is evident when bad teams/bad players clump up in 1 sector, while good teams/good players will often spread out over 2-3 sectors, creating a much larger (and much harder to focus down) concave.

Edit: I forgot about ERLL on the Catapult Jester, and one of the Champions

Edited by Vxheous, 12 January 2020 - 04:26 PM.

[Horseman]

Isaiah Kell, on 12 January 2020 - 10:12 AM, said:

1. Because it confounds new players. You have to be a math wiz and/or a game veteran to even stand a chance building a sniper mech.

Range, then cooling and laser duration, then everything else. Not rocket science as long as you know your priorities.

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2. Because with how often snipers are the best mech to bring, it's a shame that there are very few that are up to the task. Either buff the IS erll or buff a couple mechs to give us some diversity. Makes the drop deck boring and never able to be changed from anything that doesn't meet the recipe (again, very short list)

We both know that there will always be chassis and builds that are preferable to others. This isn't MWOWC with a limit of one copy of chassis per team.

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914m is maximum optimum range for IS erll. Show me a new player that actually yields that. Just one. show me one. You can't.

Show me a new player who understands they should ...
Also, there is one mech variant that does 951m. You wouldn't like that one, however.

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problem is-----> get good=make friends who can teach you this very very specific limited recipe.

Which, as I recall, barely deserved a one-liner footnote in your own training materials mentioning its existence. I really hope you've improved on that since then.

Brauer, on 12 January 2020 - 01:44 PM, said:

Instead I'd argue that the grind should be eased for new players, trial mechs should actually have decent builds and have at least some skill points, and information should be better presented.

Trial mechs especially, as the existing builds are... well, they're only slightly better than stock builds and have mostly been outdated for years.

Edited by Horseman, 13 January 2020 - 08:48 AM.

[Prototelis]

Rustyhammer, on 12 January 2020 - 03:06 PM, said:

lol at that zero bomb.

[justcallme A S H]

Prototelis, on 13 January 2020 - 12:27 AM, said:

lol at that zero bomb.

Well when none of the 11 guys infront of you are going to get close enough AND hold locks for you while you LRM them and HHoD run back to the dropzone in a 12man... You're gonna 0 bomb in that instance every time.

[B0oN]

Im gonna be so cool and forthright and just say what´s what :

IS is ever so slightly better than Clans .

The problem these last 3 years was the pilots in most cases where something was denounced "OP".
Pilots that don´ t play to the strenghts of the machinery they bring to the field are in abundance , quite vocal and despite of a whole galaxy´s worth of comp-level info they still REFUSE TO IMPROVE .
But sadly that is to be expected when looking at the times we´re living in .

Clearly the players are at fault here, since the machinery in MWO has been balanced out quite nicely .
So long, and thanks for ERPPCs .

[Davegt27]

so what did we decided to do ??

nothing ??

[B0oN]

Davegt27, on 13 January 2020 - 08:19 AM, said:

so what did we decided to do ??

nothing ??

Dave, we can´t EVEN DO ANYTHING but look in horrified fascination, cant we ?

[Prototelis]

I like the new matchmaker, fwiw.

It just needs some tweaks so it considers group quality, then maybe some of the bigger groups will stop trying to dodge each other.