45 replies to this topic

[Lukoi Banacek]

I dont see alot of assault MPL boats because for the tonnage and hardpoints you can do 9ther things better. I am speaking to the entirety of the intended PTS changes. Are you only concerned with assaults? And MPLs are for skirmishing, not brawling. On live, I can remain top dog skirmishing in a MPL versus brawler at both optimal ranges, does that seem like a viable balance? Probably not.

Additionally, the game isnt balanced around single combat/Solaris, will never be and really shouldn't be. So, that's a silly example to bring up. I dont see LRM assaults in Solaris either. It's an even more niche mode than the game itself.

P.s. I'm not saying lower alpha MPL boated builds should be nerfed, nor am I saying high alpha laser vomit builds shouldn't have a role. Merely pointing out that builds that violate ghost heat are expected to suffer for it, and that if multiple playstyles are to have a role, there needs to be distinctions that matter. If I can out perform opponents at my desired skirmishing ranges with MPL and suffer very few undue effects if a brawler closes into brawling range, there much less incentive to ever take a brawler.

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 20 August 2018 - 08:44 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

SFC174, on 20 August 2018 - 08:07 AM, said:

Sneaky caveat there "within the domain of energy weapons", but relative to the close in sustain alternatives mpls get much, much worse.

cMPL are not brawling weapons, which from your last post you seem to be classifying them as. They are either push weapons or skirmishing weapons, and should lose to brawling weapons IN BRAWLING RANGE. And in fairness to myself, I did say non-SRM missile heat needs to be examined.

And one thing people, including Navid, don't seem to be accounting for is context. Every build lost initial bite and surge DPS due to the lower cap, but not every build lost on sustained and, in fact, most gained from it. He was not being honest when he said you need a 200 second engagement to see the effects of improved sustain, his own charts show ~60-70 seconds as the cross-over point. If you put this into application, it means you can stay engaged on the front line for much longer; no need to rotate out for heat because everybody fighting is heat-capped in one already, including the enemy, and being heat-capped is less of a hindrance than it is on Live if you have even one more DHS than the minimum.

And reduced alphas, reduced burst DPS, and armor buffs via quirks and skill tree with much stronger dissipation is how you get a push meta.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 20 August 2018 - 08:54 AM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 August 2018 - 08:42 AM, said:

cMPL are not brawling weapons, which from your last post you seem to be classifying them as. They are either push weapons or skirmishing weapons, and should lose to brawling weapons IN BRAWLING RANGE

Fixed that for ya.

[SFC174]

Lukoi Banacek, on 20 August 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

P.s. I'm not saying lower alpha MPL boated builds should be nerfed, nor am I saying high alpha laser vomit builds shouldn't have a role. Merely pointing out that builds that violate ghost heat are expected to suffer for it, and that if multiple playstyles are to have a role, there needs to be distinctions that matter. If I can out perform opponents at my desired skirmishing ranges with MPL and suffer very few undue effects if a brawler closes into brawling range, there much less incentive to ever take a brawler.

If you'll note I posted the effects on a HBK-IIC-A MPL boat as well which is not an assault. In fact I play 2/3 of my games in heavies and mediums.

And I wasn't saying balance around Solaris. I was simply pointing out that you don't see MPL boats in Solaris because they are ineffective at close ranges already which makes it clear that they don't have any advantage in a brawl as is. They already get out brawled by AC/SRM/MRM setups pretty quickly. But because they are effective only below 400m (half dmg range), they can't easily stay out of brawl range (sub 300m), so they need to burst as much dmg as possible before the other builds get in tight. So it isn't like they're going from competitive in brawl range to uncompetitive. They're simply going to be uncompetitive period.

TL:DR - you have a build that was most effective in a relatively narrow range bracket and would get out brawled by missiles and ballistics (and outpoked by more traditional las or gauss vomit builds), now being heat limited in half the salvos that it is on live. while the AC/missile brawlers don't lose anything and the poke guys poke a little more often.

And I'm not talking about ghost heat here. You don't alpha an 8 or 9 MPL build except as a last resort because its going to take you out of the fight even if you don't overheat on live. The PTS merely ensures you don't have that option anymore. Fine, I'm not worried about that. I just don't like the fact that a lot of my fun to play, non-meta builds get dumped on in this PTS. And as we've discussed, it goes beyond Clan MPL boats. Energy lights get screwed as well. In fact, any mech which has all energy hardpoints gets worked over. Energy mechs are my preferred builds so naturally I'm pissed. Uninstall if this goes live pissed TBH.

[SFC174]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 August 2018 - 08:42 AM, said:

cMPL are not brawling weapons, which from your last post you seem to be classifying them as. They are either push weapons or skirmishing weapons, and should lose to brawling weapons IN BRAWLING RANGE. And in fairness to myself, I did say non-SRM missile heat needs to be examined.

And one thing people, including Navid, don't seem to be accounting for is context. Every build lost initial bite and surge DPS due to the lower cap, but not every build lost on sustained and, in fact, most gained from it. He was not being honest when he said you need a 200 second engagement to see the effects of improved sustain, his own charts show ~60-70 seconds as the cross-over point. If you put this into application, it means you can stay engaged on the front line for much longer; no need to rotate out for heat because everybody fighting is heat-capped in one already, including the enemy, and being heat-capped is less of a hindrance than it is on Live if you have even one more DHS than the minimum.

And reduced alphas, reduced burst DPS, and armor buffs via quirks and skill tree with much stronger dissipation is how you get a push meta.

60-70 seconds worth of engagement with 50-60 pt alphas/salvos (since we can't alpha all weapons so much anymore we need a new term, don't we, I choose salvo, suggestions?) and continuous firing should pretty much be decisive to most games, don't you think? We're talking 700-900 pts of potential dmg in that time frame from a single mech.

In reality I believe the actual amount of time for a sustained engagement (meaning non-stop firing, no running for cover, no peek/poke/hid, etc.) in most matches (excluding 1v1 and 2v2 stuff and maybe a Siege push in FP) is probably well under 60 seconds. If I've got shots every time I cool down and I'm with a couple teammates there are going to be minimum 3-4 dead mechs in 60 seconds if we stay alive.

But that rarely happens because people generally don't play that way, especially in Solo.

And yes, TBF to you, missile adjustments were mentioned.

And BTW guys, I appreciate the reasoned discussion. Yeonne you've been fair since this PTS started and Lukoi you've been very accommodating.

[Lukoi Banacek]

I dont think the PTS is intended to engender 60-70 seconds of continuous 50-60 pt damage alpha either. Its partially intended to force more deliberate decisions between constant dps (at admittedly lower levels), vice sharp spikes and deliberate efforts to break away for cooling down (which demonstrably lowered spikes).

And while I get what you are saying about salvo firing on your 7+ builds, the PTS does force the above direction. Perhaps too heavily, but that's why I am adamant about promoting a second, longer PTS, using larger group sizes (one to fine tune the heat issue, secondly to more accurately assess the mobility adjustments, especially among assaults).

I used two energy based EBJ for PTS testing on my primary account, so I'm not unaware of the points you are raising. A 7MPL/3LMG version and my personal face, 2HLL/1ML/4MPL/3LMG version that's beastly on the live server once you master the heat curve. I definitely had to play both differently 9n PTS, and brawling assaults were definitely scarier, but it was an adjustment 8 could make to my playstyle within 5 games in each mech to get comfortable with the nerfs. Not saying the nerfs dont need some refinement, just that they are in the ballpark that allows skirmishing, brawling, sniping etc to all assert claim to relevance.

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 20 August 2018 - 10:47 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

SFC174, on 20 August 2018 - 09:30 AM, said:

60-70 seconds worth of engagement with 50-60 pt alphas/salvos (since we can't alpha all weapons so much anymore we need a new term, don't we, I choose salvo, suggestions?) and continuous firing should pretty much be decisive to most games, don't you think? We're talking 700-900 pts of potential dmg in that time frame from a single mech.

In reality I believe the actual amount of time for a sustained engagement (meaning non-stop firing, no running for cover, no peek/poke/hid, etc.) in most matches (excluding 1v1 and 2v2 stuff and maybe a Siege push in FP) is probably well under 60 seconds. If I've got shots every time I cool down and I'm with a couple teammates there are going to be minimum 3-4 dead mechs in 60 seconds if we stay alive.

You aren't wrong, but that's also not really the use case I am getting at. It's not about raw face-time and holding buttons down.

Have you ever been in one of those pitched fights on Canyon Network where both teams rushed Theta and it's a furious trading game over that small little patch? On the live server, a laser vomit 'Mech here gets two volleys on cooldown, a third after a coolshot, and then it is basically wasting space with long intervals between shots. Once out of coolshots, they are not particularly threatening unless you fail to recognize the weakness and capitalize on it. On the PTS, these same laser vomit 'Mechs are much less hampered by their heat; the opening volleys are less intense in power and frequency, but when that battle is locked the sustainability will shine because it's less time sitting around cooling and more time shooting back and denying the enemy movements. With cMPL specifically, this kind of engagement is ideal; smaller gaps in the fire make it hard for brawlers to move up and keep the enemy twisting rather than shooting.

Basically, the cMPL boats are excellent overwatch for your brawlers that can stay on-station just as long.

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But that rarely happens because people generally don't play that way, especially in Solo.

My experience in solo queue is that you are better off taking a smaller alpha with better sustained output than taking the big, super hot volley that can potentially kill a 'Mech in one hit through the front, because if you can't continuously pressure the enemy then your own team sure won't. What I would say are the most successful QP 'Mechs are almost all high-sustain builds: dual HGR, quad LB-10X, UAC/30, 8x cMPL, MRM 50+, etc.

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And BTW guys, I appreciate the reasoned discussion. Yeonne you've been fair since this PTS started and Lukoi you've been very accommodating.

Just trying to keep PGI and the Gulag community balance crew honest.

[Esarai]

I had a dramatically different experience than SFC174, primarily because I wasn't focusing on alphas.

I ran my MAD-IIC with 2xLPL, 6xERML, and I found it to be far stronger than it is on the live servers, primarily because with skills and the extreme number of heatsinks it carries I was able to continue firing almost indefinitely.

Alpha to start, then stagger-fire the LPLs and ERMLs until you've cooled back off, rinse-repeat. I could switch between poke and DPS play seamlessly, and there was less dead time spent waiting to be able to do anything. I had to make the choice of waiting for a super-high alpha to cripple an opponent or continue using DPS to pressure the enemy, and the time spent waiting to be able to do anything was greatly shortened. Matches had a much faster pace and as a result I felt I had much more agency in the outcome of the match.

I've no way to separate if that was due to the weapon changes or the 4v4 format, but overall this PTS was the most fun I've had in MWO in a long time.

It is definitely going to require reconsidering the heat generated by certain weapons, and given that Clan laser vomit mechs ran cooler than certain IS builds, it seems as if the dissipation should be slightly reduced for Clans to counter their ability to boat heatsinks.

[Sable]

Reading this thread i keep seeing some complain the heat changes gimp a lot of builds because they can't alpha a certain amount of weapons anymore. Thats the whole freakin point. This is meant to change the playstyle so that alpha'ing every weapon isn't optimal way to fight.

Someone was saying that in a Warhawk you couldn't fire 2 ERPPCS then another 2 ERPPCS. Did you ever try chain firing them? You're still in the old rut, but the new heat scale changes what is optimal and in that specific case chain firing ERPPCS becomes increasingly optimal.

I actually think they should run another test pushing the heatscale down a little more to 35 in order to further reduce the maximum potential when skill tree and quirks are taken into account. Finally turn mechwarrior into a dps game instead of an alpha only game.

Someone else was saying that the heat scale wrecks pulse laser builds and i have to completely disagree. One of the mechs i tried was an 8 medium pulse laser Marauder IIC with 29 heat sinks. Sure it was hot when firing in groups but you put that thing on chain fire and you can fire almost nonstop indefinately.

I've also seen mentioned having different heat scales for different classes of mech. Assaults having a larger heat scale and such. I think that is the dumbest idea as it would nullify the entire point of a hard limit. If assaults can continue to fire massive amounts of weaponry as they can now then why change it at all? The whole point is to reduce high damaging alphas and increase the amount of time it takes to bring a mech down.

[Y E O N N E]

Yeah, there is a bit of trying to fit the old playstyle to the new mechanic rather than letting the new mechanic result in new playstyles. Navid's own charts are guilty of that as well. Without the initial high-DPS surge in damage that you get with scaling heat cap, you are immediately fighting at saturation. The meta is going to change to accommodate. With the increased durability, and increased agility, that means strutting out in the open with high-sustain is even more viable. IS lasers are going to fall to the wayside for MRMs, LB-X, and HGR. I think Clans are going to be favoring cMPL, cLPL, dakka, and ATMs.

I will say that triple-LPL boats for the IS might see a come-back. With the higher dissipation, dual HPPC poptarts work much better, too, since you are almost cool-down limited rather than heat-limited. The caveat is still that min-range, though.

[SFC174]

Sable, on 20 August 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

Reading this thread i keep seeing some complain the heat changes gimp a lot of builds because they can't alpha a certain amount of weapons anymore. Thats the whole freakin point. This is meant to change the playstyle so that alpha'ing every weapon isn't optimal way to fight.

Someone was saying that in a Warhawk you couldn't fire 2 ERPPCS then another 2 ERPPCS. Did you ever try chain firing them? You're still in the old rut, but the new heat scale changes what is optimal and in that specific case chain firing ERPPCS becomes increasingly optimal.

I actually think they should run another test pushing the heatscale down a little more to 35 in order to further reduce the maximum potential when skill tree and quirks are taken into account. Finally turn mechwarrior into a dps game instead of an alpha only game.

Someone else was saying that the heat scale wrecks pulse laser builds and i have to completely disagree. One of the mechs i tried was an 8 medium pulse laser Marauder IIC with 29 heat sinks. Sure it was hot when firing in groups but you put that thing on chain fire and you can fire almost nonstop indefinately.

I've also seen mentioned having different heat scales for different classes of mech. Assaults having a larger heat scale and such. I think that is the dumbest idea as it would nullify the entire point of a hard limit. If assaults can continue to fire massive amounts of weaponry as they can now then why change it at all? The whole point is to reduce high damaging alphas and increase the amount of time it takes to bring a mech down.

Again, the issue here isn't the reduced alphas, it is the inability of high energy hardpoint count mechs (or just energy boats in general i.e the WHK PPC build) to utilize their weapons as effectively as now. You talk about chain firing a MAD-IIC MPL boat, or the WHK PPC boat. The problem with that is now continual face time. If your opponent is running Gauss (or HGauss), or maybe is a Dakka/MRM setup, they're going to pump fire into you for 1-2 seconds and then twist away. In the meantime you're going to be spreading your damage output all over the place.

Yeonne is correct. This will completely overturn the meta builds and playstyles in the game. We're not just toning down the high alpha lasvomit builds (and barely touching the gaussvomit which, because deathstrike, was the supposed boogeyman). Applecart overturned. I guess what it really comes down to is that some people don't want all their playstyles changed while some embrace it.

I'm fine with toning down alphas. But this PTS goes _way_ beyond that. I'm really not interested in completely revamping everything, respecing all my mechs, parking some of my favorites, etc. I love my WLF-GR, PHX-2C, HBK-IIC-A, and MAD-IIC. I don't like them nearly as much on the PTS. I can respec my LBK and HBR builds with new omnipods, but those first 4 mechs are some of my most played. I just don't have it in me to care anymore (about the game) if they get gimped.

Edited by SFC174, 21 August 2018 - 06:15 AM.

[process]

I don't understand why the benchmark is to utilize every hardpoint. Surely no one is advocating for a Nova to alpha 12 cERMLs, any many have argued the classic cERML + cLPL or HLL combo was always circumventing the intent of ghost heat.

I found it a lot more fun and effective being able to shoot a near continuous stream of PPCs in my Warhawk, and running around firing clusters of cSPL is my Gargoyle.

[SFC174]

process, on 21 August 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

I don't understand why the benchmark is to utilize every hardpoint. Surely no one is advocating for a Nova to alpha 12 cERMLs, any many have argued the classic cERML + cLPL or HLL combo was always circumventing the intent of ghost heat.

I found it a lot more fun and effective being able to shoot a near continuous stream of PPCs in my Warhawk, and running around firing clusters of cSPL is my Gargoyle.

Please stop. I'm not talking about alphas. I haven't been this entire thread. So stop bringing it up. I'm not arguing for better alphas. Can I write that any more clearly?

I'm talking about mechs with lots of energy hardpoints running into heatcap using stagger fire in half the time they do on the live server. 4/4 stagger on a HBK-IIC-A or 5/4 stagger on a MAD-IIC. These were not considered problem mechs, they already had to ride heat caps to begin with, only with the PTS they lose a huge amount of their burst dmg before reaching heat cap, which was the whole point of the builds.

The same thing also happens with energy lights, whether they are clan or IS. Run a laser WLF or ACH. You'll run into heatcap far sooner than on live server and, without the extra heatsinks to take advantage of the new dissipation, you don't get the cooldown advantage either. My initial concern was with the bigger energy mechs, but someone else pointed out the light situation to me and its arguably even worse.

That's why this implementation of the PTS is fatally flawed IMO.

[process]

Well, I do agree that lights may need some extra consideration. In theory they use smaller, cooler weapons, and are less likely to need the sustain that a brawler would. If anything maybe they need a heat cap bonus so they can dump their damage and flee.

Edited by process, 21 August 2018 - 01:13 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Sable, on 20 August 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

I actually think they should run another test pushing the heatscale down a little more to 35 in order to further reduce the maximum potential when skill tree and quirks are taken into account. Finally turn mechwarrior into a dps game instead of an alpha only game.

Why on Earth would you want this? That just renders entire classes of weapons impotent.

[SFC174]

process, on 21 August 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

Well, I do agree that lights may need some extra consideration. In theory they use smaller, cooler weapons, and are less likely to need the sustain that a brawler would. If anything maybe they need a heat cap bonus so they can dump their damage and flee.

Well, the first step in compromise is finding common ground. I only hope that all our discussions here aren't fruitless. When PGI gets an idea......

[Y E O N N E]

process, on 21 August 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

Well, I do agree that lights may need some extra consideration. In theory they use smaller, cooler weapons, and are less likely to need the sustain that a brawler would. If anything maybe they need a heat cap bonus so they can dump their damage and flea.

FTFY. Meep!

Seriously, though, I'd rather have a dissipation bonus. Problem with 'Mechs like the Locust on Live is that they get hot and stay hot, seriously hampering damage output. You need a fairly long match to rack up the points with a 6x ML Locust without leaning on strikes. Since the cap with the minimum of 10 is only 48.5 anyway, you aren't losing much on PTS. However, the dissipation is 2.12 on live vs. 2.3 on PTS. Adding in an 11th DHS, and it's 2.3 vs. 2.53...a 10% increase. That's 10% more sustained output which, over the course of a match, stacks up because you can continue to poke and harass with greater frequency.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 August 2018 - 04:26 PM, said:

FTFY. Meep!

Seriously, though, I'd rather have a dissipation bonus. Problem with 'Mechs like the Locust on Live is that they get hot and stay hot, seriously hampering damage output. You need a fairly long match to rack up the points with a 6x ML Locust without leaning on strikes. Since the cap with the minimum of 10 is only 48.5 anyway, you aren't losing much on PTS. However, the dissipation is 2.12 on live vs. 2.3 on PTS. Adding in an 11th DHS, and it's 2.3 vs. 2.53...a 10% increase. That's 10% more sustained output which, over the course of a match, stacks up because you can continue to poke and harass with greater frequency.

It's almost like buffing internal DHS (dissipation wise) and nerfing external DHS (capacity and dissipation) is the real solution that should be looked at, not hard caps on everything.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 21 August 2018 - 05:03 PM.

[Venatos]

this was the first time i joined a PTS and it was awesome, with the lower cap and the increased dissipation the fights where a lot less pokey and kept going and going, riding the heatscale all the way. it felt skillfull, dynamic and fluid... cant wait for these changes to go live!

PS: i agree, shifting most of the dissipation buff to the engine will restore some balance.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 August 2018 - 05:02 PM, said:

It's almost like buffing internal DHS (dissipation wise) and nerfing external DHS (capacity and dissipation) is the real solution that should be looked at, not hard caps on everything.

Still need to address 'Mechs with sub-250 engines and Clan/IS dissipation independent of that particular fix, though.

TBQH, it's all slight variations on a theme, each variation needing its own fixes to address edge cases and fundamental tech tree differences.