453 replies to this topic

[Geewiz 27]

Kin3ticX, on 20 August 2018 - 01:35 PM, said:

Sorry to bother you Chris but a couple things if you have time.

#1. When can we expect to see action from the Clan Laser Alpha topic or is this still buried in the PTS?

#2. I noticed PGI rarely tweaks the Skill Tree since it came out. I am just curious if the skill tree is outside of balance and is more a fixed position to serve as a grind / gating. Lots of people seem to hate the skill tree but I don't mind it that much....However.... the skill tree still isnt as good as it could be and the lack of tweaks is going to push me into the anti-skill tree camp (not that PGI would care ).

Clan heat gen skills were reduced(nerfed) several patches ago. So it does get modified. Also I suspect other skill tree value mods have been carried out but that's the only one I can say with certainty because at the time I was a clan loyalist with all clan mechs.

[HammerMaster]

Please for the umpteenth time.
Nerf OUT OF LOS LRMs
Buff IN LOS LRMs.
Stop making excuses for not doing a rework.

[Nelos Kniven]

Love every change, some good stuff. Its kind of sad that people who whine and hate on the game so much even play it 😉

[Hiten Bongz]

Chris Lowrey, on 20 August 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:

ATMs are considered to have Artemis baked into their core stats. This change will not affect their spread values as they where not affected by the Artemis upgrade just like MRM's and Rocket launchers. This will only affect the lock on angle and lock times.

Thanks for clarification.

It'd be nice to keep SOME of the values of Artemis intact though, as I don't see many if any people wasting the tonnage and cbills for it with the new singular(!) bonus provided. I could understand bringing values down to 25% from 50% but 0% seems...extreme. Or better yet only give bonuses in LoS as it is supposed to be. With the new nerf, the value per ton is terrible. Absolutely terrible and I'll be dropping it from every mech.

I don't think these nerfs "rolling downhill" just because of LRM abuse is very professional, either. Streaks are still garbage against anything except a light mech, and are now even harder to use against the one class they're still *decent* against. ATMs have multiple massive zones where the missile deals ZERO damage or only 1 damage, while having less missile HP, a smaller salvo, and stream-fired so that AMS just obliterates them (all while weighing more than LRMs yet less ammo!). And your saying that THOSE two missile systems needed to be nerfed, really? Honestly, a 10% velocity buff feels like a spit in the face as some kind of recompense compared to what you could have done (replace deadzone with linearly scaled damage, etc.)

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 20 August 2018 - 04:40 PM.

[Captain Caveman DE]

so.. instead of admitting that buffing lurms THREE times was a mistake, especially when you look at fw ...
you nerf and patch everything around it, right?

sorry, uncool. it would be WAY easier to roll those buffs back instead of -this-.
you're opening more can of worms than you close; streaks (while I agree that they where too easy to use) go to the "meh"-bin, when you shoot their intended targets; ATMs will be even more dead thanks to this patch;

I don't mind both, to be blunt; just saying you're not fixing the problems you caused, you're causing new ones.

[Marius Evander]

ATM's need a missile health buff more than a velocity buff to deal with the increase in AMS usage, AMS destroys ATM's too effectively compared to how effectively ams destroys LRMS.

Edited by Cadoazreal, 20 August 2018 - 03:18 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Vellron2005, on 20 August 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

If you're not a lurmer, (as in LRM heavy user), please don't contribute your well known opinions to this topic, they are meaningless.

Making you a heavy lrm user is irrelevant to arguments, it's the substance of the arguments themselves. You don't own LRMs.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 20 August 2018 - 03:28 PM.

[jonomy]

Eisenhorne, on 20 August 2018 - 11:53 AM, said:

People who are unironically calling themselves "lurmers" should probably diversify their skillset. The only skill required in LRM play is by the person using the NARC light. LRMs have a narrow band where they are useful, just like ER Laser snipers or SRM brawlers. They shouldn't be useful in all situations, and they were too strong in too many situations. This might not even be enough of a nerf, we'll see.

I agree with all you said here. In addition, to helping make LRMs more effective Artemis is a costly upgrade to electronic warfare capability. ECM is mentioned in the patch and maybe that helps balance things, but Artemis, BAP and AMS equipped help a LRM heavy mech provide strong team support. I'd like to see more acknowledgement (maybe match score bump?) for electronics that support a lance or company. Targeting Computer, Command Console, ECM all offer shared benefit. Artemis does too - on a mech that shares target info with team mates. This might be a second issue related to Artemis.

[jonomy]

HammerMaster, on 20 August 2018 - 03:03 PM, said:

Please for the umpteenth time.
Nerf OUT OF LOS LRMs
Buff IN LOS LRMs.
Stop making excuses for not doing a rework.

I thought LRMs are an over the horizon weapon - by design. Balance that with minimum arming range for IS LRMs and it seems kind of ok to me.

[Kin3ticX]

Navid A1, on 20 August 2018 - 02:22 PM, said:

I'm gonna repeat this question until it gets answered.


Chris, Paul, PGI, anyone...

Did artemis bonuses require line of sight?
The official statement was that Artemis bonuses required line of sight. And now in this patch note it is considered as a free upgrade all the time and is used as a justification to remove a feature.

So again... Did artemis bonuses require line of sight?



This is the fourth time I'm asking.
Unfortunately, when you ask something like that and there is no response, then it often means something is being swept under the rug.

This right here is a prime example of why an official wiki resource is needed. This late in the game though...I guess that ship already sailed... All the little rules have no documentation and people try to guess what they are.

People still confuse whether ferro is an armor buff or a weight savings. Some still confuse the values of internal, external, and engine slot sinks

I'm not even sure how the crit rolls work but people still try to crit buff stuff with ammo, jjs, and heatsinks with no documentation of whether it works.

Damage transfer is another one that most people don't even know about.

There is this https://mwo.gamepedi.../Artemis_IV_FCS but I never really trusted anything posted there and if something is wrong...it can stay wrong for years without being fixed.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 20 August 2018 - 03:30 PM.

[D V Devnull]

@Chris Lowrey (and likely Paul Inouye as well)---

I hope you're out there, listening well... I'm trying to post this in at least a somewhat constructive (without getting extremely angry) manner...

I happen to know some people who play MWO, but I can't get to post much on the Forums at all. These people in question happen to be of older age than myself by a factor of around 66% or more, and suffer from Nerve Damage and other Medical Issues. They enjoy being able to LRM here on MWO, as it's all they're normally capable of doing after they return home from a hard day of work on non-game jobs. These changes that you're making to Lock-On Mechanics and such will doom those people to effectively thinking you (and the rest of PGI) have told them to leave and never come back. Those with the aforementioned Medical Issues can NOT track accurately, even with rock-bottom (almost on the order of 'dead zero') mouse sensitivity stats. Now more than likely, they flatly won't even be able to get a lock completed in order to help support their team. Then, they will find themselves repeatedly frustrated as they try any and every weapon to find something they can barely get along with, only to realize that their options are all gone, and they're stuck unable to play in any manner at all. Unfortunately, I also happen to know these people are slowed down due to their age, and can NOT react fast enough to brawl (or even snipe... or direct-fire while moving) in any useful capacity, taking that option from them too. They're going to end up with no choice but to leave MWO permanently, without hope of returning. And if there's one thing I know for sure, MWO does NOT need more nails in a coffin that seems to be slowly materializing for it.

Add to that the exodus from anyone who also gets annoyed at you (and again, the rest of PGI) over hurting those people, as well as some people who are not the 'Top-Tier Competitive'-type of players becoming disillusioned with MWO, and the population for the MatchMaker to work with will be crippled to a reasonable extent. This is not useful to MWO's long-term survival, in any way, shape, or form. I don't know how much of a care you (and again, the rest of PGI) give about old people who are no longer still able to function like younger folk, but the BattleTech Lore gave precedence to having old-aged pilots who didn't run Front-Line Battle Roles. The changes in particular to Streaks, ATMs, Weapon Lock Angle, and Artemis are ALL a slap in the face to every inch of that, as well as to those older people in Real Life who dared even touch MWO in the first place. It would be a rather good idea to reconsider what you're doing to older people with those aforementioned Medical Issues.

Now, all of the important above notes said, I'll note the only two things from your LRM-Related Changes that REALLY needed doing. Those are...

• ECM Bubble Extension -- Could do with a 135-Meter Setting here, instead of just 120
  
• NARC Cooldown -- Could increase to somewhere around 5.25 to 6 seconds. Pushing it to 7 seconds is what's called 'PGI-Style OverKill', and a second NARC really won't help that much with the issue, as most Mechs with a reasonable design simply could NEVER pack two NARCs.

...but your other changes are way beyond too much, and WILL throw any Lock-On Missile System into the Trash Bin... or as I would refer to it... "/dev/null" ...as you'll find a major drop of usage, possibly even to near-zero levels when people find how extreme these changes really are. Those changes to Streaks, ATMs, Weapon Lock Angle, and Artemis are just a heaping of trashing toxicity on top of everything else.

Also of note is the Cool Shot Changes... You've got something going there with a Duration-based design. However, it needs tweaking. I would recommend boosting cooling at a rate of 5.5 per second, then over a 3 second time period, for a total cooling of 16.5, otherwise people will potentially stop using them altogether, or start spamming the forums due to finding them ineffective. Yes, they should be used proactively instead of in a reactionary manner, but they shouldn't do little enough at a rate of ~4.66 per second over 3 seconds to cause people to think they aren't working at all. However, if you implemented "Alpha Balance PTS 2.0" as-is from what we saw, I think this change to Cool Shots would possibly be flatly unnecessary.

Pardon me at this point, for I feel like I need a drink after reading these v1.4.179, 2018-08-21 Patch Notes. I know one person who's going to hate this being effectively a "To hell with you... Now get out..." for their Birthday. I can already feel my stomach starting to flip upside-down because of what I can tell the effects of this upcoming Monthly Patch will be.

~Mr. D. V. "If it weren't for 'PGI-Style Overkill' in regard to Lock-On Missiles, this Patch might have been good." Devnull

[Eisenhorne]

HammerMaster, on 20 August 2018 - 02:31 PM, said:

So it took non LRM guys abusing LRM for them to get looked at.
Ok. I'm fine with that.
But one Nerf at a time please.
It's like 4 hits in one.
Honestly it seems to me more if a NARC exploitation as if late.
NOT Artemis
NOT lock on window.
NOT lock on speed.
So let's adjust to the new new new NEW meta which I'm guessing will be!
Return to AC spam.
Can't be bothered to care anymore.

.... I agree. God help me, but I agree with you on this. Lol... Maybe cut NARC duration in half, or make it so a NARC falls off after X damage, or reduce NARC velocity even more, or cut NARC range to like 350 meters to make it harder for a light mech to get in there and use it. NARC is the real problem, LRM's themselves can be countered by ECM / blocking line of sight.

[HammerMaster]

Ferro WAS an easy LORE upgrade that didn't need heavy tech needs or zero g stations to make items.
Or long turn over times (WEEKS!)
Just bolt on and go.
Blame non lore easy mech lab.

Edited by HammerMaster, 20 August 2018 - 03:49 PM.

[HammerMaster]

Eisenhorne, on 20 August 2018 - 03:36 PM, said:

.... I agree. God help me, but I agree with you on this. Lol... Maybe cut NARC duration in half, or make it so a NARC falls off after X damage, or reduce NARC velocity even more, or cut NARC range to like 350 meters to make it harder for a light mech to get in there and use it. NARC is the real problem, LRM's themselves can be countered by ECM / blocking line of sight.

Thanks!
I almost feel .... vindicated.
Almost like.... We can participate in a RATIONAL DISCUSSION!

Edited by HammerMaster, 20 August 2018 - 04:03 PM.

[SuperMCDad]

Navid A1, on 20 August 2018 - 02:22 PM, said:

I'm gonna repeat this question until it gets answered.


Chris, Paul, PGI, anyone...

Did artemis bonuses require line of sight?
The official statement was that Artemis bonuses required line of sight. And now in this patch note it is considered as a free upgrade all the time and is used as a justification to remove a feature.

So again... Did artemis bonuses require line of sight?



This is the fourth time I'm asking.
Unfortunately, when you ask something like that and there is no response, then it often means something is being swept under the rug.

Let me help, because this is something we need answered. So...bump

Edited by SuperMCDad, 20 August 2018 - 04:09 PM.

[Arkhangel]

-Ramrod-, on 20 August 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

Only thing I'm concerned with is the Streak nerfs. They are quite literally the only thing to counterattack light mechs (and some mediums) effectively. Lurms definitely needed a nerf though. Also...massive ghost heat for firing 2 Heavy Gauss at the same time like the AC/20 please.

Actually having a decent reaction time is your best defense against lights, not Streaks. always has been.

[Arkhangel]

Chados, on 20 August 2018 - 02:55 PM, said:

Far as I’m concerned, job one is to drop Artemis off all my missile mechs.

Job two is to park them. They’re all trash tier now.

This nerf has simply made the old saw true, that LRMs are bad and only bads LRM. This nerf is geared to one and only one kind of LRM play: Hanging back as far as possible and boating. The most spudly play with that system. It’s going to be a lot of fun for Locusts and Piranhas, because hunting season is officially open tomorrow night. Glad I’m able to half-*** aim nowadays and spend a lot of time under 40 tons. If this nerf had hit two years ago when I was running Catapults as primary I’d be hanging up the game.

they were always trash tier if all you ever put on them was missiles. Guided Missiles've always been a secondary weapon.

the only "main" weapon missiles are the big MRM launchers.

[HammerMaster]

Arkhangel, on 20 August 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

they were always trash tier if all you ever put on them was missiles. Guided Missiles've always been a secondary weapon.

the only "main" weapon missiles are the big MRM launchers.

False.
Main weapons are what YOU CHOOSE to run as main.

[El Bandito]

Why, PGI? Why can't you make a sensible balance change without wildly swinging the nerf hammer? Might as well remove LRMs from this game.

[Ardney]

SuperMCDad, on 20 August 2018 - 04:08 PM, said:

Let me help, because this is something we need answered. So...bump

https://mwomercs.com...08#entry6146708

and
https://mwomercs.com...66#entry6146766

^from August 9th so that's the most recent answer.