453 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

Crash Coredump, on 20 August 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

so that's like, what, 2.7% of LRM users?

Don't be ridiculous. It's nowhere near that high.

Edited by Appogee, 20 August 2018 - 09:25 PM.

[Axys Rageborn]

Just wanted to say these changes don't bother me at all lol. I just came here to watch the carnage unfold Bahahahaha

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Hi folks, hi Chris,

I have a question. I read that Artemis "trumps" NARC even if there's no LOS. Does that mean that NARC doesn't have any effect on an Artemis IV FCS equipped mechs?

[MarsThunder]

Just another proof PGI has no any idea what they are doing :-(

[mad kat]

Chris Lowrey, on 20 August 2018 - 08:40 PM, said:

Can only comment on what I can directly control. This would be something that someone on the Art team would have to comment on. I have zero impact on this particular issue.

I'm sorry what?

So you can't go over to the art team and say hey guys a few people on the forum (me included) would like a quick fix on the floating shadows. I can add the catapult, kintaro etc all do it. While i'm here tell them about the floating decal's.

That 'it's not my problem' sums up this company precisely. All you needed to say was 'i'll ask them' (surely they know about it anyway). Well at least we now know where we stand.

If PGI spent less time arsing about with quirks, and stat's in Exel and going Oooh look shiny new mech pack and actually got their heads down and concentrated on fixing bugs that have been in the game for SIX years you might just find your player base increase (from the constant decline), customer satisfaction improve and ultimately for you guys earn more money instead of leaning on whales.

Edited by mad kat, 20 August 2018 - 11:08 PM.

[Eisenhorne]

SilentScreamer, on 20 August 2018 - 09:24 PM, said:

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This makes me sad. Even with a capture boost, the Spider is still going to be an easy kill for another 30 ton mech with enough speed to keep pace. Just don't see it working out as making this particular mech viable.

I still think a point rating system for building dropdecks / teams instead of tonnage would be a more effective way to handle the under-performing variants like the Spider 5V.

Ex: your group has 30 tons for a pilot to use, do you want a Arctic Cheetah or a Spider 5V?

Don't write it off... an 80% boost to capture will make the spider very valuable in Faction Play as a capping mech in conquest matches. It caps twice as fast, so it's the same as having 2 mechs on a cap instead of just 1. That's huge, probably enough to make up for it's combat deficiencies. It will be bad for quick play, but who cares, quick play sucks anyway.

[Vellron2005]

Chris Lowrey, on 20 August 2018 - 08:40 PM, said:

Can only comment on what I can directly control. This would be something that someone on the Art team would have to comment on. I have zero impact on this particular issue.

Any chance you can comment on why you're running LRMs into the ground? Why you removed LRM bending completely out of the game?

How about why you're doing a humongous change to LRMs without a PTS, and about how that is unfair to LRM users compared to laser and Gauss users that had PTS playtests and basically gave you a resounding "hell no" to both?

In my humble opinion, LRMs are one of the weaker weapons in the game, and your balancing will make them even worse, and the reason why you're nerfing them is because suddenly, people have actually begun playing them, and having fun with them, and have shown you that literally anything when used properly, by people who know how, and in large volume can be deadly..

I guess now we have to start using flamers or something...

I have to admit.. PGI's treatment of LRMs and LRM users feels like we're second class players..

Edited by Vellron2005, 20 August 2018 - 11:36 PM.

[Chados]

Brain Cancer, on 20 August 2018 - 08:33 PM, said:

This, and so much this. The changes on this patch actually punish you for trying to get your own locks and close with targets, and ironically enough make it easier to stand further back and just spam missiles from behind a hill, as Artemis no longer really gives any major benefits versus the risks of exposure.

Why they would deliberately pitch the weapons towards tater mode, I have no idea. They even managed to discourage AMS use further via velocity increases.

Exactly what I said on the balance thread over and over and over again and Chris’s mind is nailed shut on this. Removing Artemis lock bonuses, buffing ECM, and nerfing the lock cone to the point that staring is mandatory only pushes those who were running LRMs up front with maybe 30 tubes and sharing armor out to dakka or laser pew, makes AMS worthless for the weight, makes Artemis a waste of criticals and weight, and rewards LRM boat spuds who sit back and shoot from 800 meters behind the action. This is the PGI vision for LRMs and essentially is what Chris thinks LRM play ought to be-it’s in the patch notes that they’re trying to move LRM play to what they think it should be used as, and as the most spudly LRM play is the only play not really affected by this patch, it’s obvious that they don’t want Catapults or Vultures running 30 Artemis tubes able to get their own locks from close distance and do some good. They want LRM-80 assault super-spuds hiding behind rocks with no secondary weapons, mindlessly filling the air with missiles that can’t hit anything, hence the ECM buff. You’re really not going to need AMS too much with the 135m base range, with full ECM nodes isn’t that significantly buffed back to about 180 again? So two or three ECM carriers will be able to blanket the whole firing line again, and with NARC being nerfed too it’s going to be down to hoping that some of the light mechs are investing in TAGs and dropping UAVs.

Why bother with Artemis now? All you get for the tonnage investment is a nerfed spread bonus. On a mech carrying two LRM launchers, you’re using up two tons and two crit slots. On a Catapult A1 you’re saving six tons and six crits by dropping Artemis. You’re better off replacing the LRM 15s and SRM backups with six LRM5s, hiding at max range with the assault spuds, and hollering for the brawlers to press “R” instead of working near the front line, using fire and maneuver, and engaging with SRMs inside 270 meters. In addition to rendering tactical use of LRMs a thing of the past, they have also done the exact opposite of what the direct fire proponents have been demanding, and they’ve rendered LRMs only capable of the exact style of play that is most reviled in the player community. Which shows that Chris just isn’t listening to player feedback at all-he sees it, and he reads it, but it doesn’t fit in with his vision.

Edited by Chados, 21 August 2018 - 12:11 AM.

[Eisenhorne]

You guys complaining about being unable to twist with your lurm boat and having to stare... lol I have literally never seen a lrm boat try to twist out of damage while maintaining a lock and firing.

[The6thMessenger]

Vellron2005, on 20 August 2018 - 11:34 PM, said:

Any chance you can comment on why you're running LRMs into the ground? Why you removed LRM bending completely out of the game?

I blame Paul Inouye. To be fair, Chris is trying to do us right, only Paul is holding him back.

Vellron2005, on 20 August 2018 - 11:34 PM, said:

How about why you're doing a humongous change to LRMs without a PTS, and about how that is unfair to LRM users compared to laser and Gauss users that had PTS playtests and basically gave you a resounding "hell no" to both?

I'm pretty sure their faulty reasoning is included on the Patch Notes, AAAND the podcast.

Vellron2005, on 20 August 2018 - 11:34 PM, said:

In my humble opinion, LRMs are one of the weaker weapons in the game, and your balancing will make them even worse, and the reason why you're nerfing them is because suddenly, people have actually begun playing them, and having fun with them, and have shown you that literally anything when used properly, by people who know how, and in large volume can be deadly..

Use them properly? Lol. K.

As far as we're concerned, all there is was the large volume.

Vellron2005, on 20 August 2018 - 11:34 PM, said:

I have to admit.. PGI's treatment of LRMs and LRM users feels like we're second class players..

It's funny how you say that you're using other weapons, yet you act as if LRMs is the only thing you play.

[Chados]

I know *I* used to do LRM bending and used the lock cone to hold locks while twisting off damage. It’s part of how I learned how to do that back when I still was trying to figure out how to run the game. I don’t run missiles often now but when I was I was running a Catapult A1 packing 30 Artemis tubes with backups capable of 20 firepower points and using LRMs in concert with close range backup weapons like Streak 2s. This nerf removes any hint of skill play from LRM use and forces the sort of mindless staring that Eisenhorne is talking about. Why, in the name of Kerensky, do Chris and Paul want to promote that kind of play I have no clue. But they do.

I tend to agree with 6th Messenger that this has Paul’s fingerprints on it too. It’s the old Paulconomy at work where something’s got to be rendered useless so players will spend Cbills to migrate to a new next big thing. Remember when he got LRMed down on old Forest Colony a few years ago? Story on the forums was that he went right into the spreadsheets and that was the first Artemis nerf. Chris is after Streak SRMs because he runs a lot of Urbanmechs when he runs in game, and the only way to erase streakboating is to kill LRMs and ATMs too, since they use the same mechanic and it would take a major recoding of the game to differentiate how locking missiles work. So he’s killed streaks, and in the process rendered all locking missiles and Artemis irrelevant, while claiming that he doesn’t want to make any weapons system a waste of space. In other words, doing precisely what he says he doesn’t want to do, meaning either he really doesn’t mean what he says, or he really doesn’t understand the game he is tinkering with, and I think it’s the former, not the latter-he’s not stupid, and he’s a decent player, I’ve run with him. He knows exactly what he’s doing. It’s just not a good thing.

Edited by Chados, 21 August 2018 - 12:27 AM.

[Vellron2005]

The6thMessenger, on 21 August 2018 - 12:10 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure their faulty reasoning is included on the Patch Notes, AAAND the podcast.

Any chance there's a transcript of that somewhere? Can't listen to it at work..

The6thMessenger, on 21 August 2018 - 12:10 AM, said:

Use them properly? Lol. K.

As far as we're concerned, all there is was the large volume.

Yes, using them properly.. with teamwork, in medium range, with spotters, dedicated narcers and such. We had 1-2 Narcers on both teams every wave these past few days.. AMS abounded.. and multiple dedicated LRM boats coordinating and focusing fire.. to deadly effect.

And people played well.. you see an enemy Narcer, call him out, and your team's lights actually go after him and neutralize him, people who were brawlers asking for locks for us LRM boats.. and this is pugs.. not big units..

Some of the best LRM matches I've seen since I've started playing this game.. Conquest matches were like 1250 vs 1247, Domination matches were also close, one was literally won by me suggesting someone close bring the enemy alpha down in the final seconds and someone who was close actually listening..

The6thMessenger, on 21 August 2018 - 12:10 AM, said:

It's funny how you say that you're using other weapons, yet you act as if LRMs is the only thing you play.

I do actually play many playstyles, but I enjoy playing LRMs most, and am best when in LRM boats.. But I'm also good as a Scout/Narcer, can hold my own in a brawl and right now forcing myself to learn Gauss/Laser sniping. (and doing descent).

I'm not the best, nor will I ever claim it. But I do well and have fun in most mechs. Even trials.

Edited by Vellron2005, 21 August 2018 - 12:42 AM.

[Genesis23]

love the changes to the spider, but could still use a bit more weapon quirks, since they are the least armed mechs in the game.

[Bishop Six]

Vellron2005, on 20 August 2018 - 11:39 AM, said:

So, when you're thinking of nerfing lasers into the gutter, we get a PTS (that fails miserably), but when it's time to nerf LRMs, it's streight up nerfs, no PTS, just hit us lurmers over the head and be done with it huh?

SO how is a Lurmer not supposed to feel like a second class player in this game?

NOT COOL.

Thats easy:

A Lurmer IS a second class player.

A great patch with good adjustments. Lurms are still good and mighty, especially for lower tiers.

But ECM got the team supporting role again, thats just fair against narcing premades.

And i know about narcing premades, because i do it myself and tbh it is way to OP.

All these mechanics require more skills and awareness now, thats good!

[The6thMessenger]

Vellron2005, on 21 August 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Any chance there's a transcript of that somewhere? Can't listen to it at work..

They have a tl;dr version. Also they have their rationalization on the patch-notes page too.

Vellron2005, on 21 August 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Yes, using them properly.. with teamwork, in medium range, with spotters, dedicated narcers and such. We had 1-2 Narcers on both teams every wave these past few days.. AMS abounded.. and multiple dedicated LRM boats coordinating and focusing fire.. to deadly effect.

Wave? As in these are FP games?

Anyways, they do bring NARCs, but we still see parasites that lurm from afar, that lurm from behind cover.
Your idea of "proper" as in utilizing LRMs primarily as IDF isn't what we define to be proper.

Vellron2005, on 21 August 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

I do actually play many playstyles, but I enjoy playing LRMs most, and am best when in LRM boats.. But I'm also good as a Scout/Narcer, can hold my own in a brawl and right now forcing myself to learn Gauss/Laser sniping. (and doing descent).

I'm not the best, nor will I ever claim it. But I do well and have fun in most mechs. Even trials.

Then stop acting like we're not affected by this LRM change. We can play as much LRMs as you do, you don't own the damn thing.

[MiZia]

Well tbh didnt know that Artemis gave the bonus even w/o sight. But since it was ill say thats a good decision to remove em.
Dont know if its still worth the tons either for the spread reduction. Maybe they could just up that a bit and then it would be still worth it.

[Nema Nabojiv]

GJ nerfing streaks. They were so op, right?

Fire this idiot already

[Hiten Bongz]

Bishop Six, on 21 August 2018 - 12:56 AM, said:

Thats easy:

A Lurmer IS a second class player.

A great patch with good adjustments. Lurms are still good and mighty, especially for lower tiers.

Lol? Yeah, you sure aren't biased.

Good patch? Good adjustments? Basically ruining three weapon systems (Streaks, ATMs, LRMs) in order to nerf the only one which really needed it (and not THIS way), simply because they all use lockon, you consider that a good thing? Yeah...no bias at all.

Nema Nabojiv, on 21 August 2018 - 01:12 AM, said:

Fire this idiot already

Seriously, WTF? Might as well make all missiles direct fire and just remove tracking altogether at this point.

And that is much more than a 50% reduction of lock-on area. Yet another slap in the face.

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 21 August 2018 - 01:19 AM.

[Ninjah]

This LRM/missle nerf was needed. Why? Because LRMs and Narc were just too OP if used by a premade group with a Narc mech for each wave. If you're complaining about LRMs you should've joined a FP match just to lose 4 mech in under 5 minutes to Narc and LRMs. Is that fun? NO! We lost a lot of players who got annoyed by dying a lot from no-skill weapon without any chance to do something about it, where their skills meant nothing.

It is too easy to lock on. Hell I don't lose lock even if the target is in the lower right and my targeting reticule is in the upper left part of the screen sometimes.

So I don't care about your s**t spam boats, learn to use something else, being able to do almost 2k damage in QP with a lrm boat is just insane. No other weapon system is able to do it. So stop being so selfish, screaming "MAH LURMS, MAH STREAKS". When I jump in front of a streak boat in a light mech by accident I know I'm dead in 3 volleys and if I somehow manage to escape my light is already wrecked and useless by a noob who doesn't even have to aim. This often happens in places without any cover so your arguments fail, not to mention additional LRM spam on my mech who already got locked. Playing lights is a freaking nightmare, hopefully it'll be somewhat better now.

PGI could've chosen a much more elegant way to do this but these changes were needed badly and I support them fully.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Nema Nabojiv, on 21 August 2018 - 01:12 AM, said:

GJ nerfing streaks. They were so op, right?

Fire this idiot already

Vellron2005, on 20 August 2018 - 11:34 PM, said:

Any chance you can comment on why you're running LRMs into the ground? Why you removed LRM bending completely out of the game?

How about why you're doing a humongous change to LRMs without a PTS, and about how that is unfair to LRM users compared to laser and Gauss users that had PTS playtests and basically gave you a resounding "hell no" to both?

In my humble opinion, LRMs are one of the weaker weapons in the game, and your balancing will make them even worse, and the reason why you're nerfing them is because suddenly, people have actually begun playing them, and having fun with them, and have shown you that literally anything when used properly, by people who know how, and in large volume can be deadly..

I guess now we have to start using flamers or something...

I have to admit.. PGI's treatment of LRMs and LRM users feels like we're second class players..

Chados, on 20 August 2018 - 02:55 PM, said:

Far as I’m concerned, job one is to drop Artemis off all my missile mechs.

Job two is to park them. They’re all trash tier now.

This nerf has simply made the old saw true, that LRMs are bad and only bads LRM. This nerf is geared to one and only one kind of LRM play: Hanging back as far as possible and boating. The most spudly play with that system. It’s going to be a lot of fun for Locusts and Piranhas, because hunting season is officially open tomorrow night. Glad I’m able to half-*** aim nowadays and spend a lot of time under 40 tons. If this nerf had hit two years ago when I was running Catapults as primary I’d be hanging up the game.

Jonathan8883, on 20 August 2018 - 01:39 PM, said:

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This is more than 50%.

Area of a circle with radius 60 units (blue): 11309 square units
Area of a circle with radius 100 units (orange): 31416 square units

Reduction in area going from radius 100 to radius 600: 64%

Missile lock-on target area has been nerf-bludgeoned by approximately 64%.

At this point, if you can hold a missile lock on something, it's more efficient just to shoot lasers or ballistics at it, since anything that misses the target would also lose the lock.

Guess I'll break out my locusts tomorrow.

Moving your reticle inside red square around mech is too hard apparently?