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Evolution The Art Of War. Charger & Hatamoto Chi


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#141 Shinichi Yamamoto

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 03:05 PM

View PostReno Blade, on 03 September 2018 - 08:59 AM, said:


back to topic,
I am considering the Hatamoto just for the style (and I would consider an AKUMA also), but owning everything between 50 and 85 tons already, I'm looking at my Awesome 8T which I tried to use as a Thug (2x PPC, 2x SRM6) before without much success...
Well, bit more time for the preorder to think about and wait a bit more for possible heat balance changes making these low-hardpoint mechs more attractive...


What did you do with the 10 tons leftover after equipping a max LFE engine and as many DHS as can fit?
Bear in mind that you can have twice as many SRMs on top of a bigger engine and max armor on the Hatamoto-Chi.

#142 Akillius

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 03:39 PM

View PostDarkFhoenix, on 03 September 2018 - 12:34 AM, said:

Why two IS mechs ? Why not one Clan and one IS . Posted Image

Actually should've been 3 IS mechs released together...

View PostEd Steele, on 03 September 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

Yes, I know many people will say "screw the lore" but the Charger and Hatamoto were basically made at the same time and are nearly the same Mech in the way that a Dodge Charger and Chrysler 300 are the same.

No. The Hatamoto was made many-centuries later and was based on two old 80 ton 'Mech designs, the Charger and Thug.

Charger - 80 Tons - production started 2665 http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Charger
Thug - 80 Tons - production started 2572 http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thug
Hatamoto - 80 Tons - production started 3042 http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hatamoto-Chi

"Hatamoto-Chi is a melding of the popular Star League era Thug and the poorly regarded Charger, the samurai-themed Hatamoto-Chi was the first post-Succession Wars DCMS BattleMech constructed utilizing recovered LosTech." - Sarna.net

Also the Hatamoto Hero is non-canonical:
HTM-SG Shugo - "PGI's Hero 'Mech version of the HTM-27T Hatamoto-Chi Daniel II custom variant listed above, with MWO not featuring the C3 system, the C3 Master is replaced with another ton of Streak missile reloads and four more single heat sinks."

#143 Nightnovaa

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 03:49 PM

when clan sales have been horrible because clan laser nerf talks they add extra xp and cbill items to IS mech packs....

#144 NocturnalBeast

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 05:18 PM

View PostMax Rickson, on 03 September 2018 - 03:39 PM, said:

Actually should've been 3 IS mechs released together...


No. The Hatamoto was made many-centuries later and was based on two old 80 ton 'Mech designs, the Charger and Thug.

Charger - 80 Tons - production started 2665 http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Charger
Thug - 80 Tons - production started 2572 http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thug
Hatamoto - 80 Tons - production started 3042 http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hatamoto-Chi

"Hatamoto-Chi is a melding of the popular Star League era Thug and the poorly regarded Charger, the samurai-themed Hatamoto-Chi was the first post-Succession Wars DCMS BattleMech constructed utilizing recovered LosTech." - Sarna.net

Also the Hatamoto Hero is non-canonical:
HTM-SG Shugo - "PGI's Hero 'Mech version of the HTM-27T Hatamoto-Chi Daniel II custom variant listed above, with MWO not featuring the C3 system, the C3 Master is replaced with another ton of Streak missile reloads and four more single heat sinks."


Well, many of PGI's variants are non-canonical because some of the tech they require is not in this game, or lasers are front facing instead of rear facing. Plus all Mechs in MWO have the C3 system build in since we can all share targetting information without equipping any C3 equipment. I personally believe that adding the C3 system into the game and requiring it to be used to share targetting info would make scouts and command Mechs much more usefull in this game. Although Clan Mechs have C3 built-in in lore and in MWO, so people would just cry that it would make Clans more "OP".

#145 Buenaventura

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 04:18 AM

View PostEd Steele, on 03 September 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:


Well, many of PGI's variants are non-canonical because some of the tech they require is not in this game, or lasers are front facing instead of rear facing. Plus all Mechs in MWO have the C3 system build in since we can all share targetting information without equipping any C3 equipment. I personally believe that adding the C3 system into the game and requiring it to be used to share targetting info would make scouts and command Mechs much more usefull in this game. Although Clan Mechs have C3 built-in in lore and in MWO, so people would just cry that it would make Clans more "OP".

No, Clan mechs don't have C3 built-in, they don't even have that technology. To understand this, you have to know what C3 actually does in tabletop. Weapons have range brackets which makes targets harder to hit the further away from you they are. If you and your teammate are in a working C3 network and your teammate is closer to your target than you, you use his distance to calculate the modifier, not yours. Going from long range to medium is -2, to short is -4.
The whole concept of C3 doesn't work in a FPS setting. Pulse lasers and LBX weapons also come with a bonus to hit in tabletop, but since they also do something else - they are weapons after all -, they could be implemented in a way that kinda works. Targeting computers on the other hand ... only provide a bonus for direct fire weapons (and would allow targeting specific sections of a mech that isn't shut down). The implementation is weak.

Sharing targeting information has long been part of the tabletop rules, especially for firing LRMs out of complete cover using the targeting information provided by a team mate. That team mate couldn't use his own weapons that turn, but iirc he could spot for several teammates at once. (Been a long time since I last played TT Posted Image )

#146 Mikayshen

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 06:42 AM

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm looking forward to the 'stock Charger challenge' thing to start when it's released.

#147 Grayson Sortek

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 07:39 AM

So I'm confused... Do these count towards the IS loyalty Warhammer, or no?

#148 Shinichi Yamamoto

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 08:17 AM

View PostGrayson Sortek, on 04 September 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

So I'm confused... Do these count towards the IS loyalty Warhammer, or no?


Your answer, sir is in the very first post of this very thread:

View PostInnerSphereNews, on 31 August 2018 - 04:36 PM, said:

Also Note:

The Charger and Hatamoto Chi Pre-order will be added to the

MechWarrior Online 2018 Annual Rewards Program

next week.




...how do people even find these forums when they apparently can't read? :-D

#149 Koniving

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 08:33 AM

View PostBuenaventura, on 04 September 2018 - 04:18 AM, said:

No, Clan mechs don't have C3 built-in, they don't even have that technology. To understand this, you have to know what C3 actually does in tabletop. Weapons have range brackets which makes targets harder to hit the further away from you they are. If you and your teammate are in a working C3 network and your teammate is closer to your target than you, you use his distance to calculate the modifier, not yours. Going from long range to medium is -2, to short is -4.
The whole concept of C3 doesn't work in a FPS setting. Pulse lasers and LBX weapons also come with a bonus to hit in tabletop, but since they also do something else - they are weapons after all -, they could be implemented in a way that kinda works. Targeting computers on the other hand ... only provide a bonus for direct fire weapons (and would allow targeting specific sections of a mech that isn't shut down). The implementation is weak.

Sharing targeting information has long been part of the tabletop rules, especially for firing LRMs out of complete cover using the targeting information provided by a team mate. That team mate couldn't use his own weapons that turn, but iirc he could spot for several teammates at once. (Been a long time since I last played TT Posted Image )


Note this was typed on a phone. Corrections made in this edit.

This. Been trying for years to get people to see this side. To expand...
Targeting body parts outside of specific conditions is left to chance with the idea that events in a ten second cycle up to and including the enemy's reaction will yield an unpredictable result. Shots are weighted a bit to arms understandably, as according to Battletechnology and its reworded (and sometimes exactly copied paragraphs) version printed two decades later in the cockpit section of the Tech Manual state that so long as the DI computer can read intent from the pilot that does not conflict, the mech will try to evade and/or protect itself from all harm, whether this involves tilting the body or thrusting the arms out to avoid contact with (or deflect) tree branches, step around cars, dodge the lamp posts and other environmental hazards (keep in mind the Atlas in BT is the height of the Hunchback in mwo) or protecting one's self from incoming fire. The primary means of self defense are the arms, lifting legs and twisting, as such damage is weighted towards arms, legs and side torsos.

One pilot, the Danielle of the Pretty Baby (the canonical version), is known for her ability to combine her piloting skills and the DI computer's desire to protect the mech to perform such fantastical feats as making her Awesome "skip" in order to avoid incoming LRMs.
Posted Image

Choosing to hit specific locations is only offered if the pilot intention cannot be read (unconscious), the machine is powered off and cannot react, or if the machine is in a compromised position (prone/hull down).

Targeting computers allow aiming at such body parts without those conditions by being able to predict the actions of the target and counter them by providing an aim assist/override once the desired area is chosen by the gunner's reticle.

C3 allows all weapons (especially direct fire) to be aimed as if as close to the target as the c3 unit up close to the target is
So if I'm say 810 meters away with a weapon, and my c3 networked buddy is 120 meters away, I can aim and hit as if only 120 meters away with all my direct fire weapons that can reach that far. (Actually I need to test if it would let me use small lasers from that far and hit....)

Clans do not believe in indirect fire or in exploiting their comrades to get kills as that is disgraceful and quite damaging to one's pride. As such they never had any desire for the technology. Their better ranges are attributed to a mixture of better technology and rigorous training through life and death combat trials.

Edited by Koniving, 04 September 2018 - 10:29 AM.


#150 Buenaventura

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 08:42 AM

Uh, no, the max ranges of weapons still apply. Posted Image
And C3 is not limited to direct fire weapons, would also work with indirect LRM fire, see f.e. the http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Naginata

#151 Koniving

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 10:46 AM

View PostBuenaventura, on 04 September 2018 - 08:42 AM, said:

Uh, no, the max ranges of weapons still apply. Posted Image
And C3 is not limited to direct fire weapons, would also work with indirect LRM fire, see f.e. the http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Naginata

I did say "all weapons (Especially direct fire)", which is the part that directly defeats the argument that MWO has C3 on all mechs. :)

And max ranges with all the rules can vary quite a bit... For example Extreme Ranges and there's a pilot skill that doubles the ranges of weapons (the actual rule states all weapons, most GMs prefer to have players pick a weapon class for that).

I personally prefer BattleTechnology's original rule before its own version of extreme ranges, which requires the would-be-sniper to not move and dedicate his move to aiming. It triples the 'accurate' range of the weapon, gets a called shot regardless of the enemy's condition [and is guaranteed a hit if the enemy is compromised / unconscious, powered down while the machine is still standing], but it can only be used with a single weapon, and is only fired on the next turn... meaning you spend 20 seconds lining up a single weapon for a shot up to triple range, and there's a penalty for the triple range as opposed to double. As you could understand, most don't really like that rule, it can draw out combat and its only ideal in ambush situations.

While not made for another 10 years, the optional rule (the magazine series is loaded with them, some caught on as expanded official rules, some didn't) and its scenario is almost identical to the start of this scenario, right down to the bridge...

I mean its almost uncanny, and would be funny if the magazine inspired the scene, considering BT was inspired by mecha animes like this. Though its pretty unlikely that this is more than a coincidence.

#152 Athom83

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 12:18 PM

View PostTahawus, on 31 August 2018 - 04:42 PM, said:

Anyone else think the charger looks like a the lovechild of a black knight and a highlander?

It does. And I can't tell if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

Edit a day later when I noticed I quoted the wrong person. Whops.

Edited by Athom83, 06 September 2018 - 01:28 PM.


#153 Grayson Sortek

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 12:27 PM

View PostShinichi Yamamoto, on 04 September 2018 - 08:17 AM, said:


Your answer, sir is in the very first post of this very thread:

[/center]

...how do people even find these forums when they apparently can't read? :-D



The confusion isn't that I can't read, thanks for the insult, it's that it is next week and it's still not counting.

#154 Arkhangel

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 12:39 PM

View PostGrayson Sortek, on 04 September 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:



The confusion isn't that I can't read, thanks for the insult, it's that it is next week and it's still not counting.


Yeah, it's literally the first day of "next week" be patient. they're not even given out till November, ffs. give it time.

#155 LT. HARDCASE

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 03:02 PM

Hero mechs with Single Heat Sinks piss me off. That is all.

View PostKoniving, on 04 September 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

I did say "all weapons (Especially direct fire)", which is the part that directly defeats the argument that MWO has C3 on all mechs. Posted Image

And max ranges with all the rules can vary quite a bit... For example Extreme Ranges and there's a pilot skill that doubles the ranges of weapons (the actual rule states all weapons, most GMs prefer to have players pick a weapon class for that).

I personally prefer BattleTechnology's original rule before its own version of extreme ranges, which requires the would-be-sniper to not move and dedicate his move to aiming. It triples the 'accurate' range of the weapon, gets a called shot regardless of the enemy's condition [and is guaranteed a hit if the enemy is compromised / unconscious, powered down while the machine is still standing], but it can only be used with a single weapon, and is only fired on the next turn... meaning you spend 20 seconds lining up a single weapon for a shot up to triple range, and there's a penalty for the triple range as opposed to double. As you could understand, most don't really like that rule, it can draw out combat and its only ideal in ambush situations.

While not made for another 10 years, the optional rule (the magazine series is loaded with them, some caught on as expanded official rules, some didn't) and its scenario is almost identical to the start of this scenario, right down to the bridge...

I mean its almost uncanny, and would be funny if the magazine inspired the scene, considering BT was inspired by mecha animes like this. Though its pretty unlikely that this is more than a coincidence.

08th MS was such a good show. Way more grounded than the typical Gundam, I loved it.

Edited by LT. HARDCASE, 04 September 2018 - 03:09 PM.


#156 NocturnalBeast

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 03:03 PM

View PostBuenaventura, on 04 September 2018 - 04:18 AM, said:

No, Clan mechs don't have C3 built-in, they don't even have that technology. To understand this, you have to know what C3 actually does in tabletop. Weapons have range brackets which makes targets harder to hit the further away from you they are. If you and your teammate are in a working C3 network and your teammate is closer to your target than you, you use his distance to calculate the modifier, not yours. Going from long range to medium is -2, to short is -4.
The whole concept of C3 doesn't work in a FPS setting. Pulse lasers and LBX weapons also come with a bonus to hit in tabletop, but since they also do something else - they are weapons after all -, they could be implemented in a way that kinda works. Targeting computers on the other hand ... only provide a bonus for direct fire weapons (and would allow targeting specific sections of a mech that isn't shut down). The implementation is weak.

Sharing targeting information has long been part of the tabletop rules, especially for firing LRMs out of complete cover using the targeting information provided by a team mate. That team mate couldn't use his own weapons that turn, but iirc he could spot for several teammates at once. (Been a long time since I last played TT Posted Image )


I remember how C3 worked in BATTLETECH before Catalyst took over, so apparently it has changed a bit. Also, Clan Mechs have integrated targetting systems that function in the same way a the IS C3 systems (so essentially C3 built in).

#157 Akillius

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 03:42 PM

PGI has updated the Evolution (Hatamoto and Charger) webpage, and the FAQs page.
https://mwomercs.com...er-hatamoto-chi
https://mwomercs.com...hi-charger-faq/


Also I had 3 questions and just going to paste their answers in Bold+Italics below:


1. Reporting a possible paste error on Evolution pack FAQs web page?
"Q: Are these Clan 'Mechs OmniMechs or BattleMechs?

1) Yeah this was definitely a mistake in the FAQs. Thanks for pointing this out as I can confirm that the Hatamoto and Charger 'Mechs are both Inner Sphere 'Mechs, however these 'Mechs are NOT OmniMechs as these are standard BattleMechs with Hardpoints as opposed to interchangeable Omnipods. This has now been updated in the FAQ as well to reflect this information.


2. The main web-page for the Evolution pack does not specify IS or Clan.

2) Thank you for pointing this out as I've gone ahead and forwarded this information to the relevant folks as well as this was overlooked with the re-design of the Packages Page.


3. Evolution pack does not specify if XP/CBill buffs are IS or Clan.

3) This has now been updated to specify:

**COLLECTOR REWARDS**
Own Both Charger and Hatamoto-Chi Collector Packages
- 1 IS Hanging Item with a 5% XP Boost
- 1 IS Hanging Item with a 5% C-bills Boost

##### ULTIMATE REWARDS #####
Own Both Charger and Hatamoto-Chi Ultimate Packages
- 1 IS Standing Item with a 5% XP Boost
- 1 IS Standing Item with a 5% C-bills Boost

---

So this should answer everyone's previous questions on these 3 issues.

No I didn't ask about replacing the charger's "highlander head" with a charger/centurion style head.


Edited by Max Rickson, 04 September 2018 - 03:54 PM.


#158 Buenaventura

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 04:00 PM

View PostEd Steele, on 04 September 2018 - 03:03 PM, said:


I remember how C3 worked in BATTLETECH before Catalyst took over, so apparently it has changed a bit. Also, Clan Mechs have integrated targetting systems that function in the same way a the IS C3 systems (so essentially C3 built in).

Been a long time since I last played TT, so I mostly know the old rules up to TRO3055 or something like that. Nothing with Catalyst logo on it for sure.

C3, at least as in the C3 Master/C3 Slave combo and iirc the C3i of Comstar, as shown in this little example:
Imagine the Naginata above with 3 ARLM15 and an ERPPC standing in a dense wood 20 hex away from its target, an Atlas that just ran into another hex with dense wood. With no other obstacles in the way, the Naginata could shoot its weapons at 8 (long range) +1 (target moved 3 hexes) +2 (dense wood) -> 11 (to be achieved with 2D6). Not that likely.
But a teammate of that Naginata, equipped with a C3 slave unit in the same network as the Naginata, moves after that Atlas and gets to 3 hexes distance. Now the Naginata can use the range modifier of its teammate to shoot that Atlas, changing the range modifier to 4 instead of 8, which drops that 11 to a 7, which is quite likely - still about 50% only, but I've shot alpha strikes at higher numbers Posted Image .

This is the function of a C3 network in tabletop afaik. We rarely played with new tech, so I might remember it wrong.
The Clans don't have that. It goes completely against their concept of 1vs1 engagements, so they sure don't get this for free (no tons or crits used).

If you remember C3 differently, please use an example in TT terms to demonstrate it.

#159 Akillius

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 04:20 PM

I'm thinking everyone forgot that PGI alters everything to work their way.
For example MWO's "Command Console" vs TT CC: http://www.sarna.net...Command_Console


So logically PGI can easily add C3-Master Computer and basically works like CC to boost stats.
And add the C3-Slave but alone it gives much less of a bonus then C3 or CC.
However if any mech in the same lance/team with C3 Computer then it'd boost C3 Slave mechs to same buffs as C3.

Possibly each and every C3-Slave give an extra buff to C3 Master?
But what to do if there's more then one C3 or C3i, do they get and add same bonus buff like C3-Slave?
http://www.sarna.net...C3_Command_Unit
http://www.sarna.net...i/C3_Slave_Unit

PGI could add the C3i (Improved C3 Computer) because it was being produced in 3062
http://www.sarna.net...ved_C3_Computer

And might as well add the C3 network system for IS mech to compete against Clan Targeting Computers.
Although (imo) IS is at a big disadvantage of in terms of using C3 because of weight and slots.

#160 Akillius

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 05:09 PM

View PostBuenaventura, on 04 September 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

Been a long time since I last played TT, so I mostly know the old rules up to TRO3055 or something like that. Nothing with Catalyst logo on it for sure.

C3, at least as in the C3 Master/C3 Slave combo and iirc the C3i of Comstar, as shown in this little example:
Imagine the Naginata above with 3 ARLM15 and an ERPPC standing in a dense wood 20 hex away from its target, an Atlas that just ran into another hex with dense wood. With no other obstacles in the way, the Naginata could shoot its weapons at 8 (long range) +1 (target moved 3 hexes) +2 (dense wood) -> 11 (to be achieved with 2D6). Not that likely.
But a teammate of that Naginata, equipped with a C3 slave unit in the same network as the Naginata, moves after that Atlas and gets to 3 hexes distance. Now the Naginata can use the range modifier of its teammate to shoot that Atlas, changing the range modifier to 4 instead of 8, which drops that 11 to a 7, which is quite likely - still about 50% only, but I've shot alpha strikes at higher numbers Posted Image .

This is the function of a C3 network in tabletop afaik. We rarely played with new tech, so I might remember it wrong.
The Clans don't have that. It goes completely against their concept of 1vs1 engagements, so they sure don't get this for free (no tons or crits used).

If you remember C3 differently, please use an example in TT terms to demonstrate it.


I stopped playing TT by 1991-ish...
Afair the C3 was not in game during the 1980's but I looked it up as far as I could.
No mention in Battledroids manual, also not in the original TRO2750, TRO3025, TRO3026 from the 1980's.

Sarna.net says: "The C3 system was introduced in the year 3050 by the Draconis Combine."

As others mentioned its all changed now so the below info is purely a historical research thing.
Using a "revised second printing 1990 TRO3050" so it still even has mechs designed in 0.25 tons increments.
This original TRO3050 states:

C3 COMPUTER
Recently designed and fielded by the Draconis Combine
military, the Command/Control/Communications (C3)
computer system is a piece of equipment available
exclusively to the inner Sphere. Intended for installation in
command or reconnaissance ‘Mechs or vehicles, the C3
system is designed to help unit commanders coordinate
activities on the lance and company levels.
Game Notes
The C3 computer system requires 4 tons and 4 critical
spaces aboard the command 'Mech or vehicle and 1 ton
and 1 critical space aboard each 'Mech or vehicle that will
have a communications link to the computer. Each unit
linked to a C3 computer can utilize the targeting system of
any other unit in the network. When firing, calculate the
Base To-Hit Number by using the range to the target from
the network's nearest unit with a valid line-of-sight. All fire
modifiers for movement, terrain effects, and so forth are
still based on the firing unit. A weapon still cannot exceed
its maximum range, though a well-placed lancemate can
have the effect of reducing the weapon‘s long range to short
range.
The C3 computer also duplicates the function of Target
Acquisition Gear and can designate a target for Arrow IV
homing missiles.
Prior to the start of play, designate which units are part
of the network. Only three slave units can tie into a single
C3 computer, so a typical network would be the four ‘Mechs
of a lance. However, the network can be extended by
installing a C3 computer on each command 'Mech of the
lances in a company and on the company command 'Mech.
This allows any 'Mech in the company to use the computer
coordination. Complexities of coordination do not permit
more than twelve units to participate in any network even
when it is extended by additional command vehicles.
Different networks cannot share coordinating abilities during
a battle. Units of Warren's Company could not use a 'Mech
of Ching‘s Company as a target designator even if both
companies had C3 networks. Loss or destruction of the unit
carrying the C3 master computer destroys the network.
C3 computers are available only to inner Sphere ‘Mechs.

INNER SPHERE C3 COMPUTER
Name Tons Critical Function
C3 Master 5 5 Coordinates 3 Links
C3 Slave 1 1 Participate in Network

Edited by Max Rickson, 04 September 2018 - 05:10 PM.






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