226 replies to this topic

[Bombast]

Mystere, on 01 October 2018 - 01:03 PM, said:

Psst:


Or in other words, learning requires a combination of the following: a proper education, help from a mentor or tutor, practical experience, etc.

But they didn't learn the basics by drop calling.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what all you're posts are about. Your position seems to be that people have to call to be good at calling. My position is that there are fundamental skills a caller has to learn before they ever open their mouth to utter an order, and almost every single bad drop caller (And thus, almost every single drop caller overall) is bad because they skipped those steps. Callers should know why HPG basement is bad long before they practice calling. They should know about all three elevation levels on Bog before calling. They should know all the lanes on Mining Collective and the typical travel times to and between them before they ever start calling.

Hopefully that makes my position more clear.

[Mystere]

Bombast, on 01 October 2018 - 01:32 PM, said:

But they didn't learn the basics by drop calling.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what all you're posts are about.

Yes, you are:

Mystere, on 01 October 2018 - 01:03 PM, said:

... learning requires a combination of the following: a [1] proper education, [2] help from a mentor or tutor, [3] practical experience, [4] etc.

It's a combination of things, with practical experience being one of them.

Edited by Mystere, 01 October 2018 - 05:55 PM.

[R0gal D0rn]

I could write an entire book about drop callers, or raid leaders in other games. My laboral experience is all in the side of comunication/ coordination/ Pedagogy. (Not in english, a pity...)
Sorry but all we are saying is unrealistic and oversimplistic.

To start with, the evident model for calling is a well developed one: Military organization, and the old model of Mission command https://en.wikipedia...Mission_command

In fact some competitive teams tend to use a copy and paste model of the military style of command/ response.

To cut a long story short. This model is very good to a centralized and fast response. But in long terms is disasterous to the social relations between the players.
As i used to say: this is a war game, not a war. Games have in their central objetive SOCIALIZATION... Not the survival.
When you put the goals of the game too much in the center of the social interactions that the game makes posible, the people tends to lose all motivation by the way. The war in the game is not a real menace who exiges huge personal sacrifices. It´s just part of a plot to make the game more interesting.

So you can create even a "Drop caller academy". Haven Kendrick could gave nice lessons about professional voice in a micro, and we can even bring some west point stuff about, and even bring here all the material about the different tactics in all the maps.

It will not remove some stubborn facts:
1) Not everybody even understands english.
2) 3 tiers are mixed in almost every match. Their level of comprension of the map, the tactics, and the mech they bring ant the build they have are not the same.
3) Maps change. Quirks change. Weapons change. New mechs come every month.
4) Events make people use mechs and weapons they don´t use normally...
5) You never know how many people in your team is leveling skills in a mech.
6) People cheats. No, i´n not talking about aimbots, syncro drops are cheating too, and syncro drops are too much usual in this game. two or more players, playing in synergic mechs (Narcers and lurmers is an example) have the key of many stomps in this game.
7) What can be true as a general assert in a map has plenty of exceptions in the "real" fight. Yes, take the top in Manifold uses to work better than go to the basement. But everyone can think in dozens of situations where this is not ALL the truth. By example, if your team has more assault or heavy mechs very damaged, but sitll having firepower, and the enemy keeps more mobile lights and mediums, stay in the top can bring to a backstabbing ping pong.
8) Sometimes a caller is not calling the tactic he believes is the best. He is calling the tactic his teams is really using, but triying to do in a efective way. See Baradul´s videos in youtube and you will see how good is the "german guy" just asking the team to be consistent in the tactic they are using. If you charge, you charge, if the enemy flanks, say it anf try to stop them...
I have seen a lot of bad tactics... Work, just because those bad tactics were executed with decision and skill. A good tactic with worse players can fail too... never forget...
9) A Good caller, as a good player, are not enough to win matches. They must be... Better than the opposite team, or more lucky. sometimes you have not to blame your caller. You have to say GG to the other team.

I could write for hours in my poor english, but i think i have clubbed the grammar enough...Calling is so difficult that we can´t be too much exigent... It´s another game inside the game, and the evaluatin criteria are not so clear...

[Aramuside]

Variant1, on 30 September 2018 - 07:08 PM, said:

The game should be about having fun not winning, winning is the effect of playing both players can have fun winning/losing to assume that only winning is fun is arbitrary. Also dont smack talk 3rd person vehicle combat games are best played in third person, and maybe some of us like looking at our mechs and shooting at the same time?

No one does the "dont press r" its only a minority of players, that or most likely inexperienced ones. Also most of us dont use voip because real men type with keyboards and can play just as well as those that use voip. From my experience playing pugs, pugs can play pretty well without comms, infact silent matches feel like the players work things out without a single word is impressive.

I'm presuming you're trying (badly) to be sarcastic because that has to be the most rubbish I've read in a while?

[Dr Cara Carcass]

Dragonporn, on 25 September 2018 - 05:39 PM, said:

Just recently I managed to talk folks into going basement on HPG (Skirmish), we literally murdered enemy team, rolled over them and stomped into the ground. However, most challenging part was to keep trigger-happy folks from leaving the deathball. Every time people try to take top on HPG, it ALWAYS turns into big, fat disorganized s***show, and either team can only win purely by luck.

Thats 1 time out of 10 times. Hell it even only works on skirmish and domination. Other modes will loose you the game by default.

[Bunny Wigglesworth]

I am new to the game, so all I know is tier 5. I am a potato, and I play with mostly other potatoes. I know that, and I accept that. However, I agree that if you don't know what you are doing, or aren't willing to support people doing what you have been telling them to do, please just turn off your mic. About 1/4 of the games I am in have a caller that knows what they are doing, and get the team to coordinate, usually resulting in a roflstomp. About 1/2 the games have nobody calling, which is fine. But the last 1/4 of the games, we get somebody who thinks they know what they are doing, who manages to get us all killed. A case in point was last night, our frustrated Napoleon was driving an assault, and told everybody to rush a "lone" mech that was away from the enemy lines. Cool. Okay. So a couple of mediums and lights break off to go get the target mech, and the assault, who is right behind us, stays safely behind cover. Never bothering to step around the corner to support us. It turns out that the target wasn't alone. It was actually a fairly even fight. But our assault, who could have easily turned it into a rout, never lifted a finger to help. Even though he was the one that sent us out there. He even called people that were headed out to help us back, because he didn't want the team getting strung out and "distracted". Seriously people, if you don't know what you are doing, shut up. If your strategy for the game is to keep the team under cover and not engage, while they are picking us off one at a time, don't pretend like it is a brilliant plan, that will somehow win the game. Even as a noob, I know that doesn't work. On Domination, don't call for people to go destroy Alpha or Beta when we are ahead by 30 second on the timer. In any game, don't call for a bunch of mechs to go chase after a stealth locust when we are in the middle of a fight. There is nothing as frustrating for me as a new player as having somebody who thinks they are the next Erwin Rommel, barking out stupidity to other new players who don't know any better.

[Kubernetes]

Unfortunately that kind of command incompetence doesn't go away in higher tiers. I once had a guy order the team to enter the domination circle single-file, in a conga-line. Dude was in a Spider and expected us to sacrifice ourselves in service of his novel strat. I think about five or six of us told him to stfu.

[Horseman]

Advancing single-file into hostile territory is sheer stupidity. Even line abreast makes more sense.

Variant1, on 30 September 2018 - 07:08 PM, said:

The game should be about having fun not winning, winning is the effect of playing both players can have fun winning/losing to assume that only winning is fun is arbitrary.

Losing because an incompetent clown took charge isn't fun. Likewise, losing because critical members of your team flaked out during the engagement or failed to follow calls isn't fun.

Quote

Also dont smack talk 3rd person vehicle combat games are best played in third person, and maybe some of us like looking at our mechs and shooting at the same time?

"Vehicle combat games", maybe, but 3rd person view in this game gimps your combat effectiveness so badly that it's effectively nonfunctional. Your drone can be spotted from a distance away, you don't have arm control, targeting is badly ****** up and there's no minimap (which is critical to identifying the locations of enemy mechs outside of your immediate LOS) .

Edited by Horseman, 03 October 2018 - 02:12 AM.

[Dee Eight]

i FOUND someone new to mute, usually on oh...its 4am here... so figure brunch time in continental europe, british accent. Claims to have been here since open Beta... and going from his Jarl's... hasn't improved one iota. I just cannot take "calling" from someone who talks continuously from the match drop mansplaining how the game is to be played, from someone who's never managed to end a month with a kdr higher than 0.75, and has only managed to be carried to a wlr over 1, twice in the past year. That to me...is someone who should be following... not trying to lead. Folks like that still need to learn how the game is to be played, without trying to tell others how to play it.

In my experience, drop calls should be kept simple in QP... "Timber wolf Echo Six", "Ebon Jaguard Fox, CT and RT open", "Aim for the piranha's right leg", "Atlas charlie has no head armor". Far more likely that folks will even process that into their brains than "everyone focus fire on the orange atlas that I'm shooting at over here where I'm standing"

[Astrocanis]

Judah Malganis, on 25 September 2018 - 08:58 PM, said:

The contrast between Dragonporn's HPG basement and Shadowomega1's HPG top stories pretty much sum up my thoughts on the matter: in QP, everyone following a bad plan is usually better than one or two guys doing the right thing and everyone else dragging their knuckles on the ground.

It's amazing how participation is so disincentivized in MWO. "I don't press R because I hate LRM boats", "I don't use VOIP because nothing good comes of it", " I don't follow calls because reasons", among other selfish streaks shown by players in this game. We all have self-interest, but somehow, the devs don't reward participation (or punish failure to participate) in such a way that it overrides that self-centeredness.

The problem isn't the game. The problem is the player base. Unfortunately in QP, most of the time VOIP is used by people who assume that the rest of the team are NPCs waiting with bated breath for their next pronouncement. "HELP ME YOU IDIOTS" is less than completely pointless without "I'm in the Battlemaster / Dire Whale / whatever in D5". Because the next time you hear from him is "You are all total losers" (and I'm being kind with the language).

Very (very very very) rarely there is someone who is on an even keel, almost professional, who is actually helpful instead of "Oh, NO. not an Atlas lurm boat" and figures out how to both tell the player it's a sub optimal build and then helps calling position for it. I yearn for those players. I try to be "him", but I get salty so I tend to be matter of fact and just call out what I see, where I see them, what condition they are in, and if my target info is fast enough, what they are equipping. And occasionally I get told to STFU because reasons.

Edited by Astrocanis, 03 October 2018 - 06:51 AM.

[Horseman]

And then there's someone who feels the need to narrate his actions in the match blow-by-blow on the comms throughout the entire match.
...I don't ****ing care if you're going up the hill. If you scout then give your team the pertinent information (grid, enemy units, chassis, status they're in) or STFU.

Edited by Horseman, 03 October 2018 - 07:22 AM.

[Variant1]

Aramuside, on 02 October 2018 - 03:03 AM, said:

I'm presuming you're trying (badly) to be sarcastic because that has to be the most rubbish I've read in a while?

im super cereal. playing the game should be for fun not winning. this win win mentality is not good for any communities health since theres always going to be a losing team

Horseman, on 03 October 2018 - 01:53 AM, said:

Advancing single-file into hostile territory is sheer stupidity. Even line abreast makes more sense.
Losing because an incompetent clown took charge isn't fun. Likewise, losing because critical members of your team flaked out during the engagement or failed to follow calls isn't fun.

"Vehicle combat games", maybe, but 3rd person view in this game gimps your combat effectiveness so badly that it's effectively nonfunctional. Your drone can be spotted from a distance away, you don't have arm control, targeting is badly ****** up and there's no minimap (which is critical to identifying the locations of enemy mechs outside of your immediate LOS) .

Well im also going to propose a counter to that, its not fun winning when your enemy team is down a whole bunch of guys, its not fun winning when matchmaker paired all the alpha strikers on one team and a bunch of mixed builds on the other. Fun should be more focused on playing and having a good time not winning. Because ive had games where i lost and had fun, those are the games where it usually are close games, or that odd game where the last enemies run out of ammo then it becomes a hilarious slap fight. Its especialy fun when you engage with the enemy and your injured team has to push against turrets on incursiona nd everyone dies to them XD.

Yeah 3rd person in mwo isint exactly advanageous but i like playing in it anyway, because i play for fun, i dont go all out meta cheese builds to stat pad and win because thats not fun.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Astrocanis, on 03 October 2018 - 06:50 AM, said:

The problem isn't the game. The problem is the player base.

sad - but true.

Quote

Very (very very very) rarely there is someone who is on an even keel, almost professional, who is actually helpful instead of "Oh, NO. not an Atlas lurm boat" and figures out how to both tell the player it's a sub optimal build and then helps calling position for it. I yearn for those players. I try to be "him", but I get salty so I tend to be matter of fact and just call out what I see, where I see them, what condition they are in, and if my target info is fast enough, what they are equipping. And occasionally I get told to STFU because reasons.

thing is - and I'm not salty but very chilled about this -
1. the atlas lurm boat IS bad. and unless the guy driving it is -really- new to the game, he is fully aware of that.
2. and he doesn't give a damn about that, or how he could participate better, else he wouldn't have brought that thing.

telling those people "it's bad" is not necessary, true (they know). but telling them where to position that thing and what to do with it gets you an "shut up you filthy 'european' (seems to be a swear word or sth), I know what to do and am totally better than everybody else... and so on.."
and the next thing is that he explains 2-3 minutes how that build totally rocks, bla bla.. and blocks the comms, so useful infos can't flow.

there's no way around those people; you either ignore them, or avoid them (by doing other modes for example). one thing is sure, though: -that- match won't be any fun. and we all want fun, right?

[Mystere]

Horseman, on 03 October 2018 - 01:53 AM, said:

"Vehicle combat games", maybe, but 3rd person view in this game gimps your combat effectiveness so badly that it's effectively nonfunctional. Your drone can be spotted from a distance away, you don't have arm control, targeting is badly ****** up and there's no minimap (which is critical to identifying the locations of enemy mechs outside of your immediate LOS) .

All of that was intentional because some people back in the day just couldn't handle the thought of MWO getting a 3rd person view because "But PGI promised not to include 3PV!!!! Rant! Rant! &*@#&^! ((@&@&*! )(@&&(!" and started a whole lot of dumpster fires. <smh>

[Astrocanis]

Mystere, on 03 October 2018 - 07:36 AM, said:

All of that was intentional because some people back in the day just couldn't handle the thought of MWO getting a 3rd person view because "But PGI promised not to include 3PV!!!! Rant! Rant! &*@#&^! ((@&@&*! )(@&&(!" and started a whole lot of dumpster fires. <smh>

LOL. I pretty much only use it when I want people to know I'm there, which is...never? That little floating camera might as well be a tag laser - "Here I AM!!! Come kill me!"

[Leone]

Tirant Lo Blanc, on 02 October 2018 - 01:41 AM, said:

6) People cheats. No, i´n not talking about aimbots, syncro drops are cheating too, and syncro drops are too much usual in this game. two or more players, playing in synergic mechs (Narcers and lurmers is an example) have the key of many stomps in this game..

Do you realize you just called using teamwork a cheat right? I mean, it's not like you don't have some decent points in there, it's just, you know, you've got some things like that in there.

~Leone.

[R0gal D0rn]

Leone, on 03 October 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

Do you realize you just called using teamwork a cheat right? I mean, it's not like you don't have some decent points in there, it's just, you know, you've got some things like that in there.

~Leone.

No. You´re deliberately ignoring that being able to choose in advance 1) Your partner 2) The builds 3) And being able to farm map and mode multipliers, when everybody else depends on ramdom, has nothing to do with "TEAM PLAY"...
Syncro drops are a undue advantage in many senses.
And the fact that some players are not good enough to have success EVEN with those huge advantages, dont make them less undue...


Ah, and I have to say that. yes, the lurming Atlases are a issue for the team, and being not insulting, everybody has the right to say the truth... It´s a real waste for your team to use 100 tons to do something doable (even maybe better) in a trebuchet. Yes you have some right to have fun, but it will be always much better not to handicap the posibilities of your team to have fun. They are some roles in the game you can´t escape totally. A light has to some degree the responsabilitiy to give some scout, and cap preferently in conquest modes, An asault has the responsability to be the tip of the spear, or the shield, if required. Is it fair? it´s debatable, but the fact, again is that assaults are the most able to provide firepower and armor to tank for the team, and lights have the better speed, avoidance and low profile to scout and cap... Do you hate roles? Take a medium or a heavy, they ´re multipurpose .

But if you deliberately are ignoring your role in the battlefield, dont complain about complainers... They have the right to disagree...

Edited by Tirant Lo Blanc, 03 October 2018 - 08:45 AM.

[Aramuside]

Leone, on 03 October 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

Do you realize you just called using teamwork a cheat right? I mean, it's not like you don't have some decent points in there, it's just, you know, you've got some things like that in there.

~Leone.

No he didn't he called syncers cheats and yes as we've been asked in threads by mods to report people doing it he's right... syncing has NOTHING to do with team work but rather trying to stack the deck and gain an unfair advantage.

[Aramuside]

BTW as I was just feeling remarkably ineffectual in a new dual SNPPC panther I just went out to test all the numpties theory that you shouldn't call in solo queue ....

We won 5 in a row...

then I admittedly logged as had my 10 K/KMDD because xxxx this event.

Yup all those naysayers are so right - calling is pointless and you shouldn't pay attention to callers....

[Vxheous]

This thread is funny