72 replies to this topic

[Jackal Noble]

Bombast, on 20 October 2018 - 09:07 AM, said:

I dunno, it felt more like a attack on people than an attack on a position.

All I said was that the CT is huge (You can hit is from 200+ degrees) and anyone who can shoot straight and smash the Fafnir to bits without much trouble. And you responded with a rant about a discussion that happened months ago prior to the mechs release that you didn't even know if I was a part of.

Ok fine. But it is oddly relevant particularly considering the Fafnir as it is in game, and your issue with it.
Look, I have noticed that it can get hit on it CT and is not as good at rolling damage as other IS mechs are ttypically known for. Is that a bad thing, not necessarily. The Fafnir is a capable force multiplier with its load out potential plus ecm. I think the bigger issue in this game is the fact that everyone has played the same maps hundreds or thousands of times over and nothing is changing really in that regard. The game design itself rewards certain vampiric playstyles rather than honest armored warfare.

[RickySpanish]

Fafnir is very very strong. I bought mine a day ago and even though I don't know how to position in it or shoot the gauss rifles terribly well, I still have a positive win rate in it. The fact that it is extraordinarily easy to hit doesn't matter when you can dump out more damage to one location than probably any other 'Mech in the game. You will win every trade assuming your opponent even manages to shoot back without peeing their pants.

[The6thMessenger]

Koniving, on 20 October 2018 - 09:03 AM, said:

Spoiler

Welp, give me a second to tell you about the Stalker... and I promise you'll see the point I'm going to make about the Fafnir.


the Stalker is incredibly tanky with or without quirks.
For years since its inception into the game in 2012, the Stalker with a standard engine can take more abuse than literally any 100 ton mech, in terms of overall damage dealt. This is because 60% of all damage to a destroyed side torso is thrown into the void to never affect the mech, while only the remaining 40% transfers.

Hit by 40 damage to the side torso after its blown off? Only 16 damaged received to the CT.

As such, the Fafnir is perhaps the tankiest 100 ton mech in the game...provided you're using a STANDARD engine. LFE...well that's just your problem. XL? Again your problem.

The real question is this: Is there a variant with CT hardpoints? If so, that's the one to go with. If not, welp...

Maybe you can pull this off in a 1 versus 5. Versus (fresh) LRM Catapult, (fresh) Banshee, (fresh, but helped with) Firestarter, Atlas (battered) and a Jagermech (Caught off guard). March 2014.

The Jager I caught on his own, and later the rest so technically it was only 4 on 1, and you could say the momentary distraction the Firestarter got from someone showing up (and dying) is what allowed me to get rid of the Banshee and the LRM Catapult peppering me from the distance, before leaving me to deal with the Firestarter with only an Autocannon 5 to my name.


On the day of the achievement's patch.

Anyway, my point is... huge side torsos on long mechs can prove to be an additional layer of armor.
Its also a problem... but there in rests the question, better survivability comes at the cost of easily losing huge stashes of weapons...is it worth it?



That's a question only the user can decide.

Its a shame the arms aren't bigger at the shoulders. Then that 40 damage alpha could be reduced to 6.4 damage if it hits just right through the use of torso twisting.

Then again, the Stalker's arms are stubs too, and it was able to do this
this..
These (also skip to 8:20 for the second epic brawl)
And this one completely solo
And this in a group queue

Because flamer stalker.

Well, i see your point, but i fail to see how that is relevant to Fafnir's situation. I mean it's unlike Marauder or Stalker's long slim profile that makes it easy to spread damage by just wiggling slightly on incoming fire.

Do you mean that large side torso = good shield? Well sure i guess, but then considering that most of the good weapons are there, and I really don't even side-shield with stalker, i torso-twist precisely because it's easy to just spread damage all around.

It would actually be better and more comparable to stalker (if not completely comparable) if it was done like this:

Nightbird, on 20 October 2018 - 05:20 AM, said:

Fafnir is my best assault, 1k damage and 3.4 kills per match average

Good for you man.

Nightbird, on 20 October 2018 - 09:08 AM, said:

Sometimes a mech is bad, sometimes the pilot and the mech don't synergize. The difference is, no one does well in bad mechs.

My suggestion is to either learn to use the mech for it's strengths, or don't and sell it.

I get your point, but it's feedback my guy. It's something you expect to see when people try things out .

Jackal Noble, on 20 October 2018 - 08:32 AM, said:

Since when did the Fafnir become a bad mech. What are you guys smoking?
It suffered a whopping net loss of 13.2 hp. Oh my god the tragedy. That’s like a small laser on the nose.

I honestly don't think it's that bad of a mech, it's simply not worth the real money, and it's hitbox is atrocious.

The cockpit level hard-point is lovable if nothing else.

[Nightbird]

The6thMessenger, on 20 October 2018 - 02:29 PM, said:

I get your point, but it's feedback my guy. It's something you expect to see when people try things out .

It's my opinion as well. Spoke to some folks and consensus is Fafnir is still due for a nerf. The next adjustment, whenever it happens, will be downward and not up. Just don't want you to be disappointed like Dantes thread.

[Koniving]

The6thMessenger, on 20 October 2018 - 02:29 PM, said:

Well, i see your point, but i fail to see how that is relevant to Fafnir's situation. I mean it's unlike Marauder or Stalker's long slim profile that makes it easy to spread damage by just wiggling slightly on incoming fire.

Do you mean that large side torso = good shield? Well sure i guess, but then considering that most of the good weapons are there, and I really don't even side-shield with stalker, i torso-twist precisely because it's easy to just spread damage all around.

Quote

Anyway, my point is... huge side torsos on long mechs can prove to be an additional layer of armor.
Its also a problem... but there in rests the question, better survivability comes at the cost of easily losing huge stashes of weapons...is it worth it?

In case if you missed it. But yes. Shields that significantly reduce incoming damage once destroyed. And a long enough body both front and back that the body can be tilted to protect the pelvis, even, preventing CT shots that are otherwise impossible without hitting the pelvis (from extreme angles).

As for the hitbox design where it bleeds CT/ST, that'd be pretty neat.

I've had a sub-hitbox design for some time, which subdivides the primary 11 hitboxes into a number of smaller hitboxes, where the armor you allocate to the 11 main hitboxes is then sub-divided into the smaller ones logically (areas that look like they would have thicker armor would have thicker armor, areas with weapons exposed would have lower amounts, etc.). This would mean even if you kept laser beams on the left torso, unless you kept it on something specific, it would still spread out to different components.

Lets take the Archer and say the doors are open and you want specifically to take out a missile launcher. Well that's where you'd aim. And destroying a side torso isn't as simple as shoot anywhere on the ST, you'd have to take out chunks of the ST to remove the ST entirely. Much like to destroy the leg, there's armor on the front, back, side, and it'd need to be wittled down and the structure fried, so you'd have to hammer the leg from the same spot again and again (the overall idea is to significantly increase the skill required, as well as make high end alpha strikes worthless as yes it'd take out a section and have so much wasted excessive damage that doesn't transfer that said alphas would be simply wasteful).

But I know PGI won't consider something that involved. It'd take work beyond throwing numbers at the wall.

[The6thMessenger]

Nightbird, on 20 October 2018 - 03:35 PM, said:

It's my opinion as well. Spoke to some folks and consensus is Fafnir is still due for a nerf. The next adjustment, whenever it happens, will be downward and not up. Just don't want you to be disappointed like Dantes thread.

Disappointed? Dude i didn't paid real money to this thing. Take a guess.

Koniving, on 20 October 2018 - 04:04 PM, said:

In case if you missed it. But yes. Shields that significantly reduce incoming damage once destroyed. And a long enough body both front and back that the body can be tilted to protect the pelvis, even, preventing CT shots that are otherwise impossible without hitting the pelvis (from extreme angles).

I don't even use Stalkers to shield, i roll damage with it. So i don't really get your point before.

For the Fafnir, most of the armor is on the CT than STs. Likewise it's something you'd build to have major weapons on the side-torso.

I suppose sure, asym builds MAY be done, but it's really sacrificing a bit of core-strength of the Fafnir such as double heavy ballistics.

Koniving, on 20 October 2018 - 04:04 PM, said:

As for the hitbox design where it bleeds CT/ST, that'd be pretty neat.

Spoiler

I've had a sub-hitbox design for some time, which subdivides the primary 11 hitboxes into a number of smaller hitboxes, where the armor you allocate to the 11 main hitboxes is then sub-divided into the smaller ones logically (areas that look like they would have thicker armor would have thicker armor, areas with weapons exposed would have lower amounts, etc.). This would mean even if you kept laser beams on the left torso, unless you kept it on something specific, it would still spread out to different components.

Lets take the Archer and say the doors are open and you want specifically to take out a missile launcher. Well that's where you'd aim. And destroying a side torso isn't as simple as shoot anywhere on the ST, you'd have to take out chunks of the ST to remove the ST entirely. Much like to destroy the leg, there's armor on the front, back, side, and it'd need to be wittled down and the structure fried, so you'd have to hammer the leg from the same spot again and again (the overall idea is to significantly increase the skill required, as well as make high end alpha strikes worthless as yes it'd take out a section and have so much wasted excessive damage that doesn't transfer that said alphas would be simply wasteful).

But I know PGI won't consider something that involved. It'd take work beyond throwing numbers at the wall.

I know right?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 20 October 2018 - 04:40 PM.

[Koniving]

The6thMessenger, on 20 October 2018 - 04:39 PM, said:

I don't even use Stalkers to shield, i roll damage with it. So i don't really get your point before.

For the Fafnir, most of the armor is on the CT than STs. Likewise it's something you'd build to have major weapons on the side-torso.

I suppose sure, asym builds MAY be done, but it's really sacrificing a bit of core-strength of the Fafnir such as double heavy ballistics.

I don't use it to shield either. But if you're like me, you like to engage half a dozen enemies at once and focus them down one at a time (frequently done in the videos linked earlier, engaging one enemy at a time while ignoring everyone else as they try to take chunks out of my mech, time and time again, and coming out on top). It means you have the safety to ignore them and take on the biggest fish.

In most of them, but especially the second and third videos, I'll charge head first into a bunch of enemies and systematically take them out, even allowing them to encircle me without a care in the world and as soon as one's dead, I go to the next one, then the next one, then the next one, then the next one, and only then am I really hurt enough to consider backing down. That's before quirks and all...and for the most part that's still the case today.

Now a Fafnir's gonna get more focused than a Stalker, but I don't imagine it to be too different.

[The6thMessenger]

Koniving, on 20 October 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

I don't use it to shield either. But if you're like me, you like to engage half a dozen enemies at once and focus them down one at a time (frequently done in the videos linked earlier, engaging one enemy at a time while ignoring everyone else as they try to take chunks out of my mech, time and time again, and coming out on top). It means you have the safety to ignore them and take on the biggest fish.

While i'm okay with spearheading a push, I honestly don't think Fafnir is the right mech for it. Meaning, I don't play Fafnir to confront multiple mechs at once, and if they are blindsiding me, I already did something wrong.

Koniving, on 20 October 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

Now a Fafnir's gonna get more focused than a Stalker, but I don't imagine it to be too different.

Fafnir could have more focused fire-power, and i feel that it has lower mobility. That's kinda big all things considering.

[Daggett]

Anastasius Foht, on 20 October 2018 - 03:14 AM, said:

MWO now is League of Legends, release op Mech/Hero for real money, nerf it when release for all.

Let's take a look at the latest mechpacks:

Thanatos: Not OP
Hellspawn: Not OP
Piranha: Very strong, especially in the right hands.
Black Lanner: Not OP
Sun Spider: Not OP
Fafnir: Very strong, but was/is it really better than all other IS assaults?
Blood Asp: Not OP because of STs and being an Omni, many players still prefer MCII, SVN or MAD-IIC
Flea: Annoying with masc but not OP
Hellfire: Not OP
Vulcan: Not OP
Incubus: Not OP
Champion: Not OP
Vapor Eagle: Could become strong, but no real sign of becoming OP
Charger/Hatamoto-Chi: No real sign of becoming OP
Warhammer IIC: Could become strong, but no real sign of becoming OP

So out of 15 Mechs the Piranha is the only one with a significant amount of OP threads, even if we assume that Fafnir is/was OP too that's still just only 2 out of 15.

So where exactly do you see so many OP mechs that got nerfed, did i miss something?

Edited by Daggett, 20 October 2018 - 05:11 PM.

[Koniving]

Now I gotta get me one.

I'm still kinda iffy about how PGI treated it.

Spoiler

Its a much smaller mech than the other assaults, and those big barrels in its side torsos are for the Heavy Gauss...meaning the HGR is THAT BIG... (and if PGI didn't frontload all the firepower of ACs, that 25 damage would be absolutely devastating instead of a laughable joke, afterall in Battletech the use per ton ratio of the Long Tom is the same as the AC/20, but the AC/20 does 20 damage per magazine/reload and the Long Tom does 270 max per shell [540 if the target area is littered with vehicles]).

Yet in MWO, an AC/20 "tinks" and a Long Tom...

With a bare minimum (after a fix) of 1,350 damage PER TARGET IN THE 300 METER Max Damage Radius!

(Not even mentioning BT's maximum spread for the Long Tom is hardly even 120 meters in diameter and it applies damage in 5 unit chunks out of the maximum of 270, with 30 or 6 applications of 5 damage if you're within 30 meters of the impact site...)

So Heavy Gauss got robbed of its potential due to the front loading of all weapons.

Anyway, Fafnir shouldn't be as big as it is, afterall if you look at BT art, the cockpit area is the same size as the Hunchback's...



Now if you compare the cockpits... you'll see Fafnir's a very small and compact assault. Do this across multiple arts, or across the officially "heighted" Clan Omnimechs... and you'll see Fafnir's actually about 10 meters tall, if even.

But then again... Atlas is really 13.6 meters tall (the height of MWO's Hunchback), so.... can't have them give special treatment to one mech, a lot of **** is oversized here...

[The6thMessenger]

Koniving, on 20 October 2018 - 05:12 PM, said:

I'm still kinda iffy about how PGI treated it.

Spoiler

Its a much smaller mech than the other assaults, and those big barrels in its side torsos are for the Heavy Gauss...meaning the HGR is THAT BIG... (and if PGI didn't frontload all the firepower of ACs, that 25 damage would be absolutely devastating instead of a laughable joke, afterall in Battletech the use per ton ratio of the Long Tom is the same as the AC/20, but the AC/20 does 20 damage per magazine/reload and the Long Tom does 270 max per shell [540 if the target area is littered with vehicles]).

Yet in MWO, an AC/20 "tinks" and a Long Tom...

With a bare minimum (after a fix) of 1,350 damage PER TARGET IN THE 300 METER Max Damage Radius!

(Not even mentioning BT's maximum spread for the Long Tom is hardly even 120 meters in diameter and it applies damage in 5 unit chunks out of the maximum of 270, with 30 or 6 applications of 5 damage if you're within 30 meters of the impact site...)

So Heavy Gauss got robbed of its potential due to the front loading of all weapons.

Considering how they treated the rest of the game, it's not really hard to believe it.

Is it racist to say that, God is Great sounds better in arabic?

Koniving, on 20 October 2018 - 05:12 PM, said:

Anyway, Fafnir shouldn't be as big as it is, afterall if you look at BT art, the cockpit area is the same size as the Hunchback's...

Spoiler

Now if you compare the cockpits... you'll see Fafnir's a very small and compact assault. Do this across multiple arts, or across the officially "heighted" Clan Omnimechs... and you'll see Fafnir's actually about 10 meters tall, if even.

But then again... Atlas is really 13.6 meters tall (the height of MWO's Hunchback), so.... can't have them give special treatment to one mech, a lot of **** is oversized here...

Actually the current design is actually kinda pretty, though if you just mean the scaling issue with the torso should be smaller than what it is, i agree.

[Koniving]

Well there's the torso, which has been made significantly broader to accommodate PGI's hardpoint inflation. But then there's the overall size, the mech.... Can't compare shots on hitbox localization due to the change from orthogonal (which would give perfectly accurate height comparisons) to perspective.

Will return to edit this shortly...

Can't walk around it without owning it. Was going to get shots from the exact same position with it and a few mechs where we know MWO's height to get a rough estimate. But overall, this thing is pretty damn big. Not record breaking big, but certainly big.

Edited by Koniving, 20 October 2018 - 05:30 PM.

[Anastasius Foht]

Daggett, on 20 October 2018 - 05:11 PM, said:

Let's take a look at the latest mechpacks:

Thanatos: Not OP
Hellspawn: Not OP
Piranha: Very strong, especially in the right hands.
Black Lanner: Not OP
Sun Spider: Not OP
Fafnir: Very strong, but was/is it really better than all other IS assaults?
Blood Asp: Not OP because of STs and being an Omni, many players still prefer MCII, SVN or MAD-IIC
Flea: Annoying with masc but not OP
Hellfire: Not OP
Vulcan: Not OP
Incubus: Not OP
Champion: Not OP
Vapor Eagle: Could become strong, but no real sign of becoming OP
Charger/Hatamoto-Chi: No real sign of becoming OP
Warhammer IIC: Could become strong, but no real sign of becoming OP

So out of 15 Mechs the Piranha is the only one with a significant amount of OP threads, even if we assume that Fafnir is/was OP too that's still just only 2 out of 15.

So where exactly do you see so many OP mechs that got nerfed, did i miss something?

Many mechs in latest packs are OP in their own way,uniq hardpoints combo, uniq tonnage, quirks etc, if noone make threads about ECM BAS with double gauss placed in greatest hardpoints, its not because mech is bad, its because its not released yet for masses. I own Hellfire pack and all 3 variants are beasts, 60 tonner with so much usabilty. Vulcan pack for example is meh, i did not enjoy any of standart variants. Last mech packs trend its standart pack have regular (s**t) mechs, special+hero pack gib very stronk options.

[Dragonporn]

Anastasius Foht, on 20 October 2018 - 06:13 PM, said:

Many mechs in latest packs are OP in their own way,uniq hardpoints combo, uniq tonnage, quirks etc, if noone make threads about ECM BAS with double gauss placed in greatest hardpoints, its not because mech is bad, its because its not released yet for masses. I own Hellfire pack and all 3 variants are beasts, 60 tonner with so much usabilty. Vulcan pack for example is meh, i did not enjoy any of standart variants. Last mech packs trend its standart pack have regular (s**t) mechs, special+hero pack gib very stronk options.

BAS can't do anything what MCII can't do better. Profile-wise, it's just fat and sluggish MCII in itself.

[Mr Steinbrenner]

Nightbird, on 20 October 2018 - 05:20 AM, said:

Fafnir is my best assault, 1k damage and 3.4 kills per match average

How do you even get stats like this?

[Grus]

Bombast, on 20 October 2018 - 08:47 AM, said:

Don't trouble yourself, I know they exist. I probably posted in them. I just think maybe you have some residual anger you should talk out instead of jumping on people.

I havent been able to give him his regular beatings as usual... new job and all.

[Daggett]

Anastasius Foht, on 20 October 2018 - 06:13 PM, said:

Many mechs in latest packs are OP in their own way,uniq hardpoints combo, uniq tonnage, quirks etc,

Unique stuff alone does not make a mech OP. The Viper for example is the most agile medium mech and sure is lots of fun to play, but no one would call it overpowered.

Anastasius Foht, on 20 October 2018 - 06:13 PM, said:

if noone make threads about ECM BAS with double gauss placed in greatest hardpoints, its not because mech is bad, its because its not released yet for masses.

I disagree.
The BAS hardpoints are not as great as it seems, because they are too far above the cockpit. Really great mechs have a high cockpit and it's main weapon mounts at almost the same height. The BAS basically gets shot at before it can even see the enemy. Clan has other mechs with better cockpit/hardpoint distribution for dual gauss like the MCII, and often that's worth more than ECM.

That's why you don't see any OP threads. The BAS is not bad, but it's not powerful enough to cause as much OP threads like the Piranha. There are always enough players buying mechpacks that you will quickly see in the forums which new mechs are considered powerful before it's released to the masses.

Edited by Daggett, 21 October 2018 - 02:32 AM.

[Nightbird]

Mr Steinbrenner, on 20 October 2018 - 10:31 PM, said:

How do you even get stats like this?

Not how, where. Faction Play, you don't run out of targets before you run out of ammo or life.

Edited by Nightbird, 21 October 2018 - 07:34 AM.

[- World Eater -]

The Fafnir is fun man! Sure, you're a giant target but those HGRs...

[Tordin]

Why not just slab on decent amount of armour quirks on ALL 100 tonners and call it a day, and adjust from there? Yes, not all pilots fit to pilot certain mechs but assaults shouldnt be glass cannons, especially NOT the slowest ones.

Atlas, Fafnir, Dire Wolf, Kodiak and so one, well ok. I want it to be fair for both IS and Clan, but since clan got their tech pros in lower weigth in engines, heatsinks etc. The should get a bit less armor quirks, but STILL noticable increases. And even a bit less for Clan battlemechs since paradoxally, they are kinda better than the pure Clan omnimechs, which I do think should get serious buffs to their hardlocked equpment and engines.

Edited by Tordin, 21 October 2018 - 09:04 AM.