92 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

So as I understand what is being proposed, if there is a team of middling skill beer league type opponents on (however that is determined) and on the other side there is the dreaded 12-man of comp level dastards out to farm seals then what happens?

Both teams get mixed up to make a more even-steven set of opponents (again based on some sort of presumed accurate skill assessment determination that doesn't yet exist)?

I don't know about anyone else, but I play this game for the nostalgia and because others I enjoy playing it with still play. Those of us in the beer league category want to play with our group of like minded fellows; and I suspect, those oh so "toxic" comp level seal clubbers want to play with their like minded fellows. Forcing all of us to split up and play with whomever the MM decides we ought to play with destroys the social and to an extent the team work aspect of the game; and I think would be a recipe for no one wanting to play at all.

[ccrider]

I think people are missing an important point; no amount of match maker or splitting teams is going to make everyone a winner. One team is GOING to lose, the other will win. It's that simple. If losing makes you not want to play, holy hell, what are you doing? It's a game, we play for free or we pay to play, no one here is getting paid to pretend to be a stomp robot driver. As far as the better players, if you took the time to actually play against them or, god forbid talk to them, you'd learn how to get better against them. I hate to let people in on this secret, but EVERY player has certain tendencies you can exploit. So do teams of these players. A group of guys playing robots and a style that works against their tendencies can win against them or at least keep the match a back and forth competitive affair. I feel fairly confident saying this; I've solo or group dropped against every top team since FP was created; I would rather be on the side that's losing than stack the winning side because I get matches faster that way. So why not just come to TS, form a group of people who get along and can play together and go after the best teams? You are guaranteed matches and good fights and I'm pretty sure that's 100 percent of the draw in this game until significant changes make FP have some meaning.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

an honor system can't work, sorry.

I'm sure many could and would adhere to it. but we all can drop a few (or a few more) names who'd break it. just because they can. you got those people in nearly every drop, and those few are enough to undermine it. so..

we need a meaningful form of measurement for "skill", and I have no idea how that could be done, since skill is relative.
then we'd need some idea to spread those skillnumbers evenly, or come up with some form of handicap and/or bonus to get even on both sides.

TL;DR - I don't see that happen anytime soon.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 10 December 2018 - 06:47 AM.

[Nightbird]

Honor systems don't work when behaving contrary to it results in an advantage. Game design that makes positive behavior the optimal behavior is what is needed.

[Asym]

ccrider, on 10 December 2018 - 06:34 AM, said:

I think people are missing an important point; no amount of match maker or splitting teams is going to make everyone a winner. One team is GOING to lose, the other will win. It's that simple. If losing makes you not want to play, holy hell, what are you doing? It's a game,

So why not just come to TS, form a group of people who get along and can play together and go after the best teams? You are guaranteed matches and good fights and I'm pretty sure that's 100 percent of the draw in this game until significant changes make FP have some meaning.

OK, to answer the first underline CC: It isn't about losing CC; it's about that it IS A GAME and suppose to be fun ! Losing 100% of the time and putting up with abuse isn't fun....Stupid maps no military would ever attempt to attack on.... Just terrible lack of control in a non-match maker environment. the list of "stupid" goes on and on. It's a game !!! Game = Fun and FP isn't anywhere near, nor has been anything except a misery.,,,,,, SO, we left. And CC, where are we now, eh?! Is the pot a might empty? Are you having as much fun where the near 100 players I personally know left??? Two entire teams Lad....

We are and were on TS and DC. So? We're still on TS and DC in "other games"..... MWO was replaced in 30 seconds. Why would a group of either professional soldiers or just about professional gamers want to expose themselves to a broken game or toxic behaviors in the "free time".......when they aren't working 12 hour days or have been "away from home" for months.....
Why? CC, that time is "precious" beyond measure..... MWO became Non-Value-Added..........

Come on over to WoWs one night and you can join yet another team I belong to............I can gar-un-tee you, you'll be welcome and "have fun" because we simply are old enough to know what fun is and how to have it !

I wish you luck in MWO because it isn't a place where "fun" is easy...........

[ccrider]

Asym, on 10 December 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

OK, to answer the first underline CC: It isn't about losing CC; it's about that it IS A GAME and suppose to be fun ! Losing 100% of the time and putting up with abuse isn't fun....Stupid maps no military would ever attempt to attack on.... Just terrible lack of control in a non-match maker environment. the list of "stupid" goes on and on. It's a game !!! Game = Fun and FP isn't anywhere near, nor has been anything except a misery.,,,,,, SO, we left. And CC, where are we now, eh?! Is the pot a might empty? Are you having as much fun where the near 100 players I personally know left??? Two entire teams Lad....

We are and were on TS and DC. So? We're still on TS and DC in "other games"..... MWO was replaced in 30 seconds. Why would a group of either professional soldiers or just about professional gamers want to expose themselves to a broken game or toxic behaviors in the "free time".......when they aren't working 12 hour days or have been "away from home" for months.....
Why? CC, that time is "precious" beyond measure..... MWO became Non-Value-Added..........

Come on over to WoWs one night and you can join yet another team I belong to............I can gar-un-tee you, you'll be welcome and "have fun" because we simply are old enough to know what fun is and how to have it !

I wish you luck in MWO because it isn't a place where "fun" is easy...........

shooting robots is fun
I literally am amused by the simple act of blowing up robot parts. I got into the nerd politics of FP 1 through 2.5 but since FP 3 I just log in to hang with buddies and blow up robots. I rarely get stomped even when solo dropping, when it does happen I just laugh it off and queue up again. I guess I don't get the same frustration others do because I don't see losing as a big deal and the last time I saw abuse was LORDS "ggclose" stuff and honestly that's weak sauce I ignored. Trust me, at the beginning, I got handed a LOT of stomps; old school TCAF If I played mornings, NS and NKVA at night, LORDS if I went to the clan border. All it did was make me change the way I built my robots to better suit my play style not frustrate me. Not saying people should be like me, but I can't really make points that don't agree with my particular viewpoint.

[Grus]

Zibmo, on 09 December 2018 - 01:08 PM, said:

Did you consider that some of us don't want to be carried because we would like to contribute and some of us don't like to be stomped without the chance to play the game.

I do want to win. But I don't want to win because I'm on a team that is OP compared to the playerbase. Win at any cost is not winning to me. There has to be inherent risk, but risk approaching 95% is not risk. It's guarantee. No matter which side of that percentage you are on.

Thank you, but no. Your glib response was not helpful.



You are the poster child for non-self regulation. Why not go down to the local elementary school and win your boxing matches?

"Did you consider that some of us don't want to be carried because we would like to contribute and some of us don't like to be stomped without the chance to play the game." Then listen to people that are telling you what to do, where to position, how to build and shoot with said build.

" I do want to win. But I don't want to win because I'm on a team that is OP compared to the playerbase." That realy depends on your deffinition of "playerbase". Even at my level, going against guys like emp, KCOM EVIL ect.ect. its more of how many kills how much damage i can inflict... then do more next time. THAT is how you get better..

"You are the poster child for non-self regulation. Why not go down to the local elementary school and win your boxing matches?" Whats the fun in that? I tend to fight at a higher weight class than what im at anyways... translation, you walk in the ring, better be ready for a fight.

As for the poster child for non-regulation, i think anyone in EVIL will contest that.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 10 December 2018 - 03:52 AM, said:

of course I disappear debating with you is pointless

because you dont even discuss the topic. youre incapable of putting forth any valid arguments so you resort to personal attacks.

and now im done talking to you in this topic as well.

None of those posts contain any attacks - you should go and look up the defintion, seems you do not understand it.

The posts linked contain a bunch of facts, proven/open source numbers etc - all to backup my points of discussion.

You are continually making unsubstantiated claims. How about once, just once, you show us some proof/evidence or facts to back them up? Oh that's right, you've again been found to have none and are once again bailing on a discussion because it is time to talk facts

[Asym]

ccrider, on 10 December 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

shooting robots is fun
I literally am amused by the simple act of blowing up robot parts. I got into the nerd politics of FP 1 through 2.5 but since FP 3 I just log in to hang with buddies and blow up robots. I rarely get stomped even when solo dropping, when it does happen I just laugh it off and queue up again. I guess I don't get the same frustration others do because I don't see losing as a big deal and the last time I saw abuse was LORDS "ggclose" stuff and honestly that's weak sauce I ignored. Trust me, at the beginning, I got handed a LOT of stomps; old school TCAF If I played mornings, NS and NKVA at night, LORDS if I went to the clan border. All it did was make me change the way I built my robots to better suit my play style not frustrate me. Not saying people should be like me, but I can't really make points that don't agree with my particular viewpoint.

Good Hunting then CC and have a happy holiday season !!

Should you get bored, wander over to WoWs and drop in. It's a F2P and blowing up ships is actually fun ! Be well.

[Grus]

Asym, on 11 December 2018 - 07:02 AM, said:

Good Hunting then CC and have a happy holiday season !!

Should you get bored, wander over to WoWs and drop in. It's a F2P and blowing up ships is actually fun ! Be well.

Stoped playing WoWs once i got the the Fletcher.. the CV spam was real.

[Nameless King]

GeminiWolf, on 06 December 2018 - 06:05 PM, said:

I will say this again. Until Quick Play is removed and you log into Faction Play, Faction play will remain a ghost realm. I don't play Faction Play because the several times I've attempted to play it, I was sitting in a que for an eternity then once a drop was being put together, I was shoved out in favor of a group. This of course sent me right back into waiting in the que. Not my idea of fun.

Remove QP and you will see the end of the game.

[Asym]

Grus, on 11 December 2018 - 07:31 AM, said:

Stoped playing WoWs once i got the the Fletcher.. the CV spam was real.

Yeah.... CV rework is about to field and I don't play bird nests and, from what I've heard, I suspect the CV guys are anxious to say the least.......

Now, it's the radar and HE Spam meta's......... Sales gimmicks.........want to buy a "Radar Cruiser?" (mech pack.....) Same thing. I play IJN mostly and have the "free give away premiums....." I have "family" in game there so, they talked me into playing with them a while back and geeze, that crew all comes from competitive FPS games and they have retired from competitive gaming !!! They are a tough crowd to hang with sometimes.....

You should wander back......a lot is changing yet again and there are a lot of MWO pilots there.....

[Feral Clown]

kamichiwa343, on 09 December 2018 - 09:15 AM, said:

This would be fantastic is certain units didn't get instantly banned when they hop in the cobra hub

That ban was a direct result of repeated and continued harrassment by MS players and leadership. It is however no longer in place for hub due to ccrider and is only applicable to BCMC/EVIL channel. However MS players not respecting this will be subject to being banned individually.

[ccrider]

Feral Clown, on 11 December 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

That ban was a direct result of repeated and continued harrassment by MS players and leadership. It is however no longer in place for hub due to ccrider and is only applicable to BCMC/EVIL channel. However MS players not respecting this will be subject to being banned individually.

This is correct; everyone is welcome, as long as unit rooms are treated with respect and those units' rules followed within those rooms. I will get on tonight and set up some generic public drop rooms, do with those as you please. Just be aware that if anyone breaks my one rule about respecting unit rooms, I'll be the one issuing bans and no one has an admin level high enough to counter my bans. I don't want to ban anyone, I'm super laid back, but I do insist that people treat the homes of my friends with respect.

[ApexSun]

Wil McCullough, on 09 December 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

there's no possible way to enforce self-regulation either.

You are missing the point, you cannot enforce self-regulation. Self-Regulation means, by its very definition, that it is initiated by the the individual who holds him/herself to a higher standard. The entire point to my post was and is to formally discuss and challenge the idea that I am hearing over and over in game comms. Stop fielding unbalanced teams with 10 lurmboats and 2 narcravens on boreal defense if you know who you are dropping against. Sometimes you are going to miss and get a different group then you thought was in queue but any effort is better than none. Most of us have a solid enough friends list that we know who will be on the other side before deck selection. We also know that if we just dropped versus a 12 man unit that we will probably get them when we requeue so we can already have a competitive group ready to go...or not go if thats the case.

[ccrider]

This reminds me, I have to patch tonight so I can Hata for Dear Coordinator. I'm naming all of them Kawai desu.

[Feral Clown]

Self regulation....
Unfair unbalanced matches....
12 mans rolling pugs....

It is hard to sort through all of this considering how many of these complaints have continually plagued CW. A lot of them though are not fact based, such as population decline in CW being able to be blamed on 30 or so players. The population never recovered from long tom and when the one bucket system was implemented, pugs came to check out quick play maps with respawn for a bit but did not stay, and units that cared about planets and lore disappeared. Maybe unbalanced matches had a part to play in that (but not particularly one set of bad guys but unit v pugs), but not nearly as much as some of the other changed that have been repeatedly vocalized and are being brought up for consideration this time around in PGI's latest efforts.

So what should be considered here is not what a group of individuals can do themselves to fix the game by behaving themselves (because frankly the entire premise is silly), but what can be done as a community to bring people together more to get more groups going.

One minor change proposed to BCMC/EVIL group is to change the rule to have members get priority in drops to a first come, first serve policy so that visitors coming to learn and play don't have leave after a couple of matches and to perhaps make it more welcoming to visitors so that they get that BCMC/EVIL actually want them around and are interested in helping people improve. So far no unit member has objected to this and will likely become rule. This may help encourage unit member coming on later to form a separate group of mixed members/guest groups.

The one issue with this however is that this group is not a training group for beginners, it can't work that way. There are other good units that are suited for that. Established players able to easily get 1000 damage but want to up their game to the next level, are realistically the type of player that would benefit. That said members from 601, CSPS, GNX and some others would absolutely fit into units and players that have the game mostly down but may benefit from mixing up the groups.

*Edit forgot especially that our roomies are most welcome and quite a few do drop by regularly and any time we get to chat or drop with cc is always a blast. If only everyone (including myself) had his attitude about shooting robots being the most important and best part, the world would be a better place.

Edited by Feral Clown, 11 December 2018 - 09:24 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

ApexSun, on 11 December 2018 - 06:53 PM, said:

You are missing the point, you cannot enforce self-regulation. Self-Regulation means, by its very definition, that it is initiated by the the individual who holds him/herself to a higher standard. The entire point to my post was and is to formally discuss and challenge the idea that I am hearing over and over in game comms. Stop fielding unbalanced teams with 10 lurmboats and 2 narcravens on boreal defense if you know who you are dropping against. Sometimes you are going to miss and get a different group then you thought was in queue but any effort is better than none. Most of us have a solid enough friends list that we know who will be on the other side before deck selection. We also know that if we just dropped versus a 12 man unit that we will probably get them when we requeue so we can already have a competitive group ready to go...or not go if thats the case.

If that's the definition we are going to go by then this idea is a moral circle jerk with no possible way of succeeding. If there are no fixed rules and everyone goes in with their own personal interpretations of how to balance matches, no good will come of it. Even golf, which uses handicaps to create a more even outcome has an enforceable system. You.don't play within the system's rules, you don't compete.

A system that relies on personal opinion is only going to succeed in creating one thing - drama.

If i think i'm a good pilot and handicap myself by not allowing myself to pilot anything bigger than heavies, someone is going to have the opinion that i'm a great pilot and ahould play nothing heavier than mediums.

Then what?

If i'm a great pilot but don't subscribe to this self-regulation idea and refuse to handicap myself because i want to improve, then what?

How are you going to avoid me in fp? If we play at the same hours, you're gonna consistently drop with or against me. Then what?

Sorry but this whole idea reeks of impossibility and the faint stench of bush-league players feeling entitled to wins against eon level opponents. "I suck, you don't. So you should field locusts while i bring out my streakdogs."

[WhineyThePoo]

No

[LordNothing]

Wil McCullough, on 09 December 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

Erm...

You guys know that if you drop in a big group, you get weight penalties right?

Like a 12 man group can only field an average weight of 50tons per player. Most of your losses will be from small groups. Not 12-mans.

i wonder how well those rules would fly in fp as opposed to gq. of course last thing i want is potatoes in assault mechs four drops in a row. thats a recipe for squirrel chow.