63 replies to this topic

[Prototelis]

Great, you've established the original designers of the IP can't scale their ******* game either. Like honestly, this was barely a concern for them. Its a ******* dice rolling game and most of the designs were borrowed from somewhere else. This is one of the reasons why the source ip/cannon/lore are garbage.


Can we get that reboot now?

[Gristle Missile]

Maybe its just the poor agility, but It also seems like the CT on the IIC is easier to hit. Maybe the crotch is bigger?
Would be helpful to have a hitbox overlay in the pics from front and side

Edited by Gristle Missile, 27 February 2019 - 05:53 PM.

[Nightbird]

Koniving, on 27 February 2019 - 05:23 PM, said:

(One more fun thing for misconceptions. SRMs can be carried in and fired from a rifle on foot. With a separate guidance system cobtrolled by a remote joystick on the hip).
Granted this is a dumbed down version without the automated guidance of regular SRMs...but that leads to another thing missing here...doesn't it? Anyway it still does the same damage.

(And yes I am aware the hip controls look really really stupid and impractical... Better to have it on the gun and be more....intuitive..

Well, keep in mind that in TT, SRM ammo is 50/ton so 40 pounds per missile max. (Likely less since the ammo comes with crate and ammo loader). A missile launcher needs to be little more than a tube that can withstand 2 shots and a crosshair. On a mech, you need ammo loader, armor for the tubes and other stuff, though turning it into a ton is pretty amazing inefficiency.

[HammerMaster]

Nightbird, on 27 February 2019 - 05:55 PM, said:

Well, keep in mind that in TT, SRM ammo is 50/ton so 40 pounds per missile max. (Likely less since the ammo comes with crate and ammo loader). A missile launcher needs to be little more than a tube that can withstand 2 shots and a crosshair. On a mech, you need ammo loader, armor for the tubes and other stuff, though turning it into a ton is pretty amazing inefficiency.

There are better illustrations that show a much larger man portable srm-2.

[GeminiWolf]

My theory is the players are really fat now and add weight to the mech.

[Nightbird]

HammerMaster, on 27 February 2019 - 06:31 PM, said:

There are better illustrations that show a much larger man portable srm-2.

Sure, you can have a bigger tube, but the missile won't get any larger. It is just 40 lbs tops. The size of a 750mL soda bottle.

[Koniving]

Nightbird, on 27 February 2019 - 05:55 PM, said:

Well, keep in mind that in TT, SRM ammo is 50/ton so 40 pounds per missile max. (Likely less since the ammo comes with crate and ammo loader). A missile launcher needs to be little more than a tube that can withstand 2 shots and a crosshair. On a mech, you need ammo loader, armor for the tubes and other stuff, though turning it into a ton is pretty amazing inefficiency.

1 ton is 2k lbs (BT uses US tons) so at most a missile would be 20 lbs given that there are 100 missiles (or 2 tubes times 50 uses) in a ton of ammo.
The launcher (infantry carried shoulder mounted) with and without ammo has a specified weight which I will check during the day before I go to work (my shift is almost done just a few more hours then glorious sleep...if my toddler lets me). The primary differences in the man-portable version and the vehicle version in the tabletop as far as I know is range. Will double check in morning. It should also be accuracy considering that one is manually controlled (prior to launching by setting the intended curve Before firing) (this only somewhat makes sense due to the fact that the missile would be too fast to manually guide with that flimsy control scheme. Was an MLRS artilleryman [13 mike] and I can tell you any rocket or missile at a short range isn't gonna give you enough time to screw with that hip mounted cheap on a moving target.)

Anywho. An ammunition Bin's weight (empty) varies by "numerous factors" but roughly encompasses 10 to 20% of the weight of each ton of ammo. Mechwarrior RPG 1st edition. (Might be superseded now).

Assuming max weight for the bin (400 lbs or 0.2 tons) the SRM ammo used by vehicles and mechs (which doesnt differ in damage but differs in range and guidance systems and if this weight were taken out and filled with explosives would add 50% more damage potential as per "dumb-fire missile" ammo for SRMs...) Would be 16 lbs per missile. The missile from a Javelin is 18.5 lbs and a Stinger is 6.6 lbs. If I'm not mistaken the SRM weight of that launcher was between 3 and 5 lbs and had something like half or a fourth of the range. In terms of length though the missile is only 50% longer and about 90mm in diameter (where the ones in that launcher are 40mm to 50mm supposedly).

The larger man-portable launcher has better stats for its weight and 2 person requirement. But in terms of explosive power is about the same. Much of the system's weight on a mech or vehiclr is in the feed and firing mechanics (programming target parameters etc.) The extra ton of Artemis adds in a communication system between the missiles and the launcher (which can be jammed by Guardian ECM...but basic arm guidance cannot be...and yes SRMs track targets. Sort of a big reason why they are so much heavier.)

Sorry for so many quotes. Fixing the autocorrect and each time I think I am done another one shows up.

Did forget one detail. That specific launcher shown as held by the Steiner soldier fires one missile at a time and carries two in a revolving mechanism. Unlike the larger man portable srm 2 which fires 2 at a time (well per 10 second time slice) and hauls with them a stash of reloads carried by other soldiers in the same squad.)

Edited by Koniving, 28 February 2019 - 12:01 AM.

[Koniving]

HammerMaster, on 27 February 2019 - 05:24 PM, said:

Keep in mind I'm talking this skinny Atlas in black and white stop motion. NOT the released colored shiny one.

Fair.

Side note that one bugged me. Given the year.... Also an Atlas C as is later in a the colored trailer... In 3015. So...so much wrong there.

Side note. Do you have the vid or a link to it if not deleted? The old links to it on Mwo don't include the videos anymore and I love the PPC charge up mechanic it had.

[Koniving]

Nightbird, on 27 February 2019 - 05:55 PM, said:

SRMs

Koniving, on 27 February 2019 - 11:40 PM, said:

SRMs (vehicle/mech, manportable of multiple sizes)

To follow up as promised.

Various SRM facts using Mechwarrior RPG, Battletechnology (for comparison) and Megamek HQ (online tabletop). Weights (of weapons and ammo), ranges, distinctions.. Multiple SRM launchers used by infantry / mechanized infantry compared to vehicle/mech SRM launchers.

Spoiler

Megamek HQ puts it at 0.01 tons (20 lbs).
Digging up Battletechnology, its listed as 12 lbs, and each missile at 5 lbs.(decimals removed, weights actually listed in kilograms and it makes for really long decimals). That's about 22 lbs in total.

Mechwarrior RPG 1st edition is less specific, stating that the weapon (with no distinction of weaon and its ammo) is 10 kilograms (22.0462 lbs).


Although you've already seen the extent of the detail MW 1st edition has, Battletechnology expressly describes that specific launcher as ambush oriented, both due to its very short range compared to mech/vehicle SRMs and as I described earlier about thinking there'd be no way to orchestrate its flight with those controls during flight... apparently I wasn't the only one to think that. BattleTechnology's William H .Keith Jr. (also author of first, third and fourth novels) describes the hip control as a preset established before firing, complimented by adjusting the actual angle of the launcher just prior to firing for any minor corrections. The idea of the design is to be able to fire it from cover such as behind walls, inside bunkers, etc. without exposing one's self if possible. (Surprise! Suddenly SRM to the mech from 90 meters or less! Betcha didn't see that coming!)

And yep, it fires a single missile and only has two (it apparently can't be reloaded.)

As you could see in Mechwarrior RPG 1st edition, despite the art and description of the launcher in the hands of the Steiner soldier, this page's description in MW RPG 1st Ed. actually says "direct fire over the shoulder models exist" and is referring to the very same launcher. And yes there's no reason it couldn't be fired directly, though that sort of defeats the advantages of the hip mounted flight path preset controller.

------------

Megamek specifically describes that as SRM Launcher (Light).
There's also SRM Launcher(Heavy one-shot). It is 0.02 tons (40 lbs). Despite the name, it is reloadable unlike SRM Launcher Light. But it fires one SRM at a time. As such it is single tube.
There's also SRM Launcher (Heavy, two-shot). It is 0.03 tons. It also is reloadable.

The weight of both the Heavy Launchers does not include the missile, which is 0.32 tons (64 lbs) for 8 uses (heavy one shot) or 4 uses (heavy two shot). Not sure how its carried, but that's basically 8 lbs per miissile to get 180 meters.

Compared to 5 lbs to get 90 or 120 meters (depending on the source)

Or 8 lbs to get 180 meters.

Or vehicle/mech SRMs at 16 lbs to get 270 meters.

Strangely... Heavy one-shot is double the cost of Heavy two-shot. This...I think this is an oversight in Megamek HQ. SRM Light and SRM heavy two shot also cost exactly the same, which it shouldn't as the light SRM launcher is noted for being relatively cheap to manufacture (it's cheaper than most auto rifles, which holds true in Megamek HQ as it is cheaper than the autorifle).

Of interesting note:
There's a portable SRM-1 which is 0.06 tons (120 lbs). Reloadable, full range. But that's manual reload. Ammo is in 0.1 ton allotments with 10 uses. (Making them 20 lbs at most, though 'ammo bins' comes up as a required item [listed as weightless] when supplying them to new infantry, as such these could be the same 16 tons (edit: meant pounds not tons) as those of vehicles/mechs).

SRM-2. Its listed as 0.12 tons, or 240 lbs. Ammo is in half ton allotments with 25 uses.
These take "15 seconds to set up." Meaning one turn has to be spent remaining stationary to set up the weapon before it could be used. Regular squads can't haul this around, and as such its better to give it to mechanized infantry (which appear in either very light trucks or motorcycles as icons).

"OS" versions are only slightly break the mold. OS versions are 0.01 ton or 0.02 tons heavier than regular ammo-less launchers, but only have single uses. At first this is as it should be, but then you see SRM-3 OS is only 0.01 ton heavier as is SRM-1 OS... but SRM-2 OS and SRM-4 OS are 0.2 tons heavier..

In ALL cases, all SRMs described here deliver 2 damage per missile versus a 'Mech with a BAR of 10 (military grade armor).
All SRMs deliver up to 20 damage to infantry per missile

Awesomely neat stuff. After I post the big results in the "You have 5.5 tons" thread, I'm gonna do a thread in Battletech Discussion this weekend about weapons and weapon variants if you wanna join.

But enough about that, back to the scale of Warhammer and volumes debate.

Edited by Koniving, 28 February 2019 - 07:10 PM.

[HammerMaster]

Koniving, on 27 February 2019 - 11:43 PM, said:

Fair.

Side note that one bugged me. Given the year.... Also an Atlas C as is later in a the colored trailer... In 3015. So...so much wrong there.

Side note. Do you have the vid or a link to it if not deleted? The old links to it on Mwo don't include the videos anymore and I love the PPC charge up mechanic it had.

I searched High And Low. I think its deleted.

[Koniving]

HammerMaster, on 28 February 2019 - 04:00 PM, said:

I searched High And Low. I think its deleted.

Don't like that its deleted.
Like that you tried to find it too.

[HammerMaster]

Koniving, on 28 February 2019 - 07:11 PM, said:

Don't like that its deleted.
Like that you tried to find it too.

A while back I tried saving it.
It's like they want something good to die.

[LordBraxton]

So all the IS 80 tonners get massive hitboxes but the new clan battlemech gets to be undersized, of course.

[Nightbird]

IS 80 tonners are basically 85 tonners because of all the free hit points. Downsize them for 0 quirks, any takers?

[FupDup]

LordBraxton, on 01 March 2019 - 02:39 PM, said:

So all the IS 80 tonners get massive hitboxes but the new clan battlemech gets to be undersized, of course.

On the other hand that new Clan Battlemech also had worse agility than a number of mechs above its tonnage. IMO I'd rather have better agility in exchange for having the mech be scaled to other 80-ton gundams.

[Grus]

Nightbird, on 01 March 2019 - 05:44 PM, said:

IS 80 tonners are basically 85 tonners because of all the free hit points. Downsize them for 0 quirks, any takers?

And the 2c didn't get enough armor as it is. Only like 20 extra armor points, that's it. No where near the "nearly double the armor" that lore dictates.

[FupDup]

Grus, on 02 March 2019 - 11:21 AM, said:

And the 2c didn't get enough armor as it is. Only like 20 extra armor points, that's it. No where near the "nearly double the armor" that lore dictates.

The fluff about extra armor is based on stock builds, with the IS Warhammer not carrying its maximum armor load by default. The Whalehammer IIC only had the same armor capacity as any other 80-ton gundam.

And really, I don't get why people are complaining about the Whalehammer IIC's lack of armor or weapon quirks. Its "fatal flaw" issue is agility. Agility. AGILITY. Agility agility agility.

An 80-ton mech is never going to be a raw DPS platform like the MCII or KDK. 80-ton mechs should ideally act as a compromise between the heavy and assault classes, getting a nice blend of attributes from both camps. PGI is treating the WHM-IIC as if it's the second coming of the MCII, which it simply will never be.

[FLG 01]

"lore dictates" is a strange thing to say regarding MWO, anyway.
And yes, agility is what kills the WHM IIC. Scale it up, increase the agility and it should be ok.

[Nightbird]

Grus, on 02 March 2019 - 11:21 AM, said:

And the 2c didn't get enough armor as it is. Only like 20 extra armor points, that's it. No where near the "nearly double the armor" that lore dictates.

It does have double the stock armor.

[Grus]

Nightbird, on 02 March 2019 - 12:02 PM, said:

It does have double the stock armor.

Hero to hero comparison.

Max Black widow armor = 434
Max Maul armor =498

Please explain how 64 armor is nearly double?