322 replies to this topic

[Feral Clown]

GuardDogg, on 17 April 2019 - 06:53 AM, said:

Yes, I am surprised to. Thread gets derailed, and towards me. I try to fix a problem (or let people know), about a problem of Assault pilots and their job. So, I end up trying to defend myself. I end up responding stupid like bringing up that 5ERPPC Raven I have seen. Seems like the community has personal issues and taking it out in the forums. Like trolling for a battle or on someone to pick on. I can handle it. It what I am used to through my whole life (careers, the chief, and of course the siblings...lmao). I am getting advice, but not what should the community do about this problem of people asking for the impossible. Realizing, it is not going to happen. So, let it continue, and let others deal with it on the battlefield. Just listen to everyone cry on the mics. At the start we see this "GLHF" but after a minute the guys are swearing, giving out "Stupid team", and then disconnecting.

Sorry you misunderstood what I meant but I am more refering to issues you are experiencing that are not necessarily an actual problem in game. Comms and screaming you are experiencing I don't because in quick play I disable them. I agree that slow assaults are tough but that doesn't make lights and mediums op. It is just part of the balance in my opinion and since I am terrible in assaults, I deal with it by using mechs like dakka slepnir which goes 60+ kph.

[GuardDogg]

Xiphias, on 18 April 2019 - 06:24 AM, said:

He's not saying that that your is build isn't popular/meta. He's saying that it is literally impossible to have in the game. There are no King Crab variants that have 6 Ballistic and 3 Missiles. You either have 6 ballistic + 2 missiles or 4 ballistic + 3 missiles. You can't build a mech that isn't possible.

This is now the second time you've claimed to use or have seen a build that isn't possible in the game and it's significantly undermining your credibility. It's okay to admit you were wrong, but doubling down on something that is factually incorrect is just reinforcing the view that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Oops. Didn't know I doubled down. I have 3 KCs, One does B4, E3, M3. other does, B6, E2, M2 other does, B2, E4, M4
I gave or take of the 3 into one. Didn't have my reference manual, or I was not in mechlab. You are correct. For that I am going to double down on your chip dip.

Edited by GuardDogg, 18 April 2019 - 09:00 AM.

[xX PUG Xx]

Horseman, on 18 April 2019 - 03:38 AM, said:

Reread my post please

I may have been slightly drunk when I wrote it but I know it doesn't imply what you have read.....or maybe it does. Either way I can't believe I got involved in this conversation and have players offering me advice on builds and playsyles for QP.

Note to self: don't read the MWO General Discussion forums while drunk.

[GuardDogg]

Horseman, on 18 April 2019 - 07:21 AM, said:

... heat management only goes up to 2/2.

Again...Oops. Meaning for example 1.4/2

[Athom83]

ingramli, on 18 April 2019 - 07:59 AM, said:

TLDR
Just my 2 cents regarding assault, as an meh player, assault class is not the best idea for QP dropping with random people, especially the slower ones (55kph or less i say, which apply to DWF even with full speed tweaks nodes). When you try to catch up with the heavies who dont wait for you, you have no choice but to take the shortest route, making your movement predictable and vulnerable to flanking. Dont get me wrong, it is the best class with team work and support, it is just too challenging for an average player to bring out its full potential in a highly randomized situation.

Once you get out of tier 3 it gets much better for dropping as an assault in QP. For assault players, tier 3 is an infinite hellscape where sanity goes to die.

[VitriolicViolet]

urgh this tired old 'argument'.

It is not hard to beat half your own team to to the fight in a mech going 55kph. it just isnt. its a minority of games where i am one of the last to the fight.just make sure you are paying attention and then hit the gas and dont stop until you are at the given engagement location.
this is another point, map awareness. more than any other class you need to not only know the map backwards but also all the most likely locations the enemy will be and all the most common moves from that point. choose the most exposed side for a flanking attack but at the same stick with your team until the moment when you can see or are at least sure that few enemies are paying attention (or the ones that are are opened up) if you do all this well its not hard to get games with 600+ damage and a few kills.

personally (it could be my computer) im often one of the first to hit 'ready' and often the first in my lance to move off. i mainly play assaults but have been branching into lights a bit more (Panther 10P with just an AC10 is kinda awesome).

Anyway Lights are in no way 'invincible' frankly as an assault pilot i like running into lights because its like a 2 shot kill. some games ive taken out 3/4 lights with little to no problem. in fact as long as im in my 'mobility' Highlander i can take out quite good light pilots.

The issue i see (and have explained before along with many others) is that many people who pilot assaults just dont really know how to play. i like assaults with a few arm weapons, great for hitting ankle biters or UAVs. another aspect is movement. way way to often i see an assault pilot trying to spin in circles to keep up with a light and losing horribly.
You need to try and back yourself into a wall (it limits the angles you can be attacked from by like 40%). if you cant do that then never try to follow it too much, i like to turn until i cant hit it then immediately counter turn until i see it again and repeat. even a 100 tonner can do it provided you have grabbed the mobility tree (though its not easy in a 100 ton mech).

Next is how to kill, do not ever waste time on a mech that has less than half its weapons. if you blow off the right torso of a marauder and it only has a pair of MLs left and theres a mostly fresh Black Knight coming utterly ignore the marauder and leave it for the rest of your team, a mostly dead mech is not a threat.
Kills are far less important to a win then crippling the enemy. far to often i see someone get tunnel vision and die trying to kill something that only has one weapon while completely ignoring the whole mech shooting them.

speaking of i seriously dont know how some people cant get their back cored out without even noticing, they get shot at for 10 seconds, lose a side torso and then finally turn around only to to have most of their firepower already gone.also aiming, so many pilots suck at simply aiming.

Im supposedly in teir 1 (honestly im not that great, i should be teir 2 at best) and even then ive witnessed people miss still mechs with an entire laser burn, get rear cored and killed without ever noticing or bringing janky bizarre builds (many of mine are not meta but they seem to work ok, ive seen someone bring a king crab with nothing but MGs and SRMs it died horribly due to having a max range of 300m)

Anyway its all doable, ive been running mostly Corsairs lately and all but 1 move at 51 kph and im still pulling between 300-600 damage mostly. even on a loss you should be able to put up at least 300 damage (the other day i had my first sub-200 game in a long time, chose the worst path possible out the options i had and was shredded by 3 other assaults. or team sucked except for Just Call Me ASH who got around 350 despite everyone else sucking).

EDITED: it also sounds like you could brush up on mechs and hardpoints. one thing thats invaluable is being able to look at a mech an instantly know where most of its firepower is. Cataphracts, Orions and Marauders often have a large AC on the right side as well as some energy hardpoints (except MAD-5D, left side has 2 missile hardpoints)
Or that the Anni has mainly torso points so get above or below it. also knowing what builds are meta, even if you dont use them so you know where to shoot.

Edited by VitriolicViolet, 18 April 2019 - 02:33 PM.

[General Solo]

To fight lights in an assault mech you need to be cool and precise

Take care with your aim and be smooth and carefree about it

Self doubt, stress and attitude can cripple a player when fighting lights.

Clear your mind focus, hahaha

Focus on that crosshair and be ready to fire with out thinking about it when the light is in the crosshair.

Of course their's more to it, just mean don't resign your self to being a light mech snack, fight back, you 'll be better at it in time as long as you fight back

A glancing shot from an assualt mech can rekt a light, kill it or make it run away

Just gotta hit it

And if the assault lance wouldn't split up that would be a whole lot easier

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 19 April 2019 - 12:12 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Such a discussion shouldn't even take place or create a thread with several pages. If you look at the stats of the people who claim that the worst class (lights) are the OP while one of the, perhaps the best, class (assaults) are mere victims on the field...then you see that those are usually people who hardly play lights and/or play their heavies or assaults quite bad and most likely in a lower tier.
I don't mean that as an insult. After all we started as newbs but perhaps those people should listen and accept that the more experienced players see things differently and that sometimes the "problem" is the pilot and not the class.

[ingramli]

Bush Hopper, on 19 April 2019 - 01:15 PM, said:

Such a discussion shouldn't even take place or create a thread with several pages. If you look at the stats of the people who claim that the worst class (lights) are the OP while one of the, perhaps the best, class (assaults) are mere victims on the field...then you see that those are usually people who hardly play lights and/or play their heavies or assaults quite bad and most likely in a lower tier.
I don't mean that as an insult. After all we started as newbs but perhaps those people should listen and accept that the more experienced players see things differently and that sometimes the "problem" is the pilot and not the class.

Sure good player can bring out more out of assault. The problem is, not all of us are good players, and not all out us can become "good" with time progress. Taking myself as example, while I am casual player not playing a lot, after 2.5 years and i havent hit T2 probably means i just dont have the potential to become a good player, and I dislike your view that which putting the blame on meh pilots like me which i (we) dont really have the solution for it (git gud).

When we discuss the strength and weakness of each class, I am on the view that we should look at them on the perspective of the mass (the average performance across all the whole population), not just the good/experienced players.

Edited by ingramli, 19 April 2019 - 06:49 PM.

[Alienized]

ingramli, on 19 April 2019 - 06:43 PM, said:

When we discuss the strength and weakness of each class, I am on the view that we should look at them on the perspective of the mass (the average performance across all the whole population), not just the good/experienced players.

you are aware that this will be even worse as many mechs are barely played (and if, surely not by the better players) so you dont have a mass of data to begin your discussion with?

how many times do you see a highlander compared to a mc2 with uac's?

thats not goin to work ever.

[GuardDogg]

ingramli, on 19 April 2019 - 06:43 PM, said:

Sure good player can bring out more out of assault. The problem is, not all of us are good players, and not all out us can become "good" with time progress. Taking myself as example, while I am casual player not playing a lot, after 2.5 years and i havent hit T2 probably means i just dont have the potential to become a good player, and I dislike your view that which putting the blame on meh pilots like me which i (we) dont really have the solution for it (git gud).

When we discuss the strength and weakness of each class, I am on the view that we should look at them on the perspective of the mass (the average performance across all the whole population), not just the good/experienced players.

Exactly. Going through the pages only 4 people came out with best replies. Rest do not have a positive answer on the problem, only to help flame the thread. So, in all thread/answers got no where. Realizing now, do not think this problem will never get the best answer, solved. Because everyone plays differently, not the same. This is not MW4 (where I used to train pilots on a team and we did okay), of one replies I had to consider "Do not bring the lore into MWO.". That is the way it is now in MWO. Although MWO has Battletech features. That is why MWO was the best in the first years, but complainers of pugs. Pugs do not work alone much anymore. They do group up and help each other. Well for the Tier I am on. So, if a light, or medium pilot has the speed of about 89 and makes it to center, then yells out at team why assault pilots are not in center (grid location) at very exact time he is when the assault pilots are not fooling around. The guy has math/physics problems. After making this post I have never heard on headphones yelling at assaults anymore. Maybe because of the new release of a Assault mech. Although I do have that Assault package, been using my medium/heavy to protect assaults at the back. I like protecting my team, it is my passion, and who I am.

[Y E O N N E]

ingramli, on 19 April 2019 - 06:43 PM, said:

When we discuss the strength and weakness of each class, I am on the view that we should look at them on the perspective of the mass (the average performance across all the whole population), not just the good/experienced players.

You can't do that, because that just means the player with the bigger 'Mech wins every time when you have two players of equal potential.

[VitriolicViolet]

'When we discuss the strength and weakness of each class, I am on the view that we should look at them on the perspective of the mass (the average performance across all the whole population), not just the good/experienced players.'

the problem with this approach is that if balance by the middle or bottom then anyone who sits in the top will get even better.
Example, if we consider LRMs and base the discussion around an average player, then apply the results of such a discussion to the game (to make LRMs more effective in the hands of a middling player) then the top players who were already good with said weapon suddenly have an OP weapon.

The lower you base your balance discussions (in terms of player skill) the worse the outcome will be for those not-so-good players.

The population is low enough (and PSR is an EXP bar) that the spread of good to bad players per match is staggering.
Another example, removing Gauss charge. yes removing it will allow players who struggle to use it can actually use it. but players who were already good at it get buffed as well.

Same with Assaults v lights.

I do best in assault mechs and have little trouble killing lights (frankly its fun, nothing beats taking out 3 light mechs in something that has the agility of a rock). So if we decided to balance assaults on the basis that average to poor players cant kill lights than someone like me will end up annihilating any light mech i see with zero troubles (which would suck for lights and me, i dont want it to be easy i want it to be balanced).

Same with lights. many people struggle to play them and they are frankly the wrost and most unpopular class in the game. some players are amazing in them though (i have seen a pro take out 5 mechs just through flawless positioning and timing).
So lets say we balanced them to allow worse players to make use of them. suddenly the already good players will be wiping the map clean.


What makes balance in this game so hard now is that the player base just isnt big enough.

[FLG 01]

Y E O N N E, on 19 April 2019 - 07:24 PM, said:

You can't do that, because that just means the player with the bigger 'Mech wins every time when you have two players of equal potential.

And that means everybody will just take the biggest Mech out there. What's worse, bad players would still be bad players and get murdered by better players, but MWO would lose most of its variety, flavour, and fun.

GuardDogg, on 19 April 2019 - 07:11 PM, said:

Exactly. Going through the pages only 4 people came out with best replies. Rest do not have a positive answer on the problem, only to help flame the thread.

They do.

"With great power comes great responsibility." The impact of an assault on the match is tremendous. Only accept that responsibility if you are capable of doing so, or if you are willing to learn. If you are not, you have more fun driving the easy-mode heavies or the care-free mediums. Nobody forces you to pilot the most important and difficult to master Mech class. That is a positive and helpful advice.

Also, if you are not willing to learn and improve yourself, but prefer to blame the 'meta', other players, classes, and so on... you will never have fun in this game. Never. You will always blame something or someone.
Again, that is helpful advice. It helped me. I cannot control PGI or other players, but I can improve myself.

[VitriolicViolet]

honestly assaults are not the hardest class to master. i would say second hardest after lights. getting 800 damage in a assault is satisfying but getting 500 damage in a Panther is so much better.

However you are right that assaults have a big impact and that people should only use tem if they have positioning down solidly.
In my opinion positioning is by far the most important skill as an assault pilot, knowing the map backwards, the most likely points the enemy will head to and where you should be in relation to that and your build.

[FLG 01]

VitriolicViolet, on 19 April 2019 - 07:46 PM, said:

honestly assaults are not the hardest class to master. i would say second hardest after lights.

Could be. I just found it easier using lights but it might be that I have just more experience with them. However, I certainly agree that it is the most difficult task to use a light effectively against a truly competent enemy.

[ingramli]

FLG 01, on 19 April 2019 - 07:33 PM, said:

And that means everybody will just take the biggest Mech out there. What's worse, bad players would still be bad players and get murdered by better players, but MWO would lose most of its variety, flavour, and fun.


They do.

"With great power comes great responsibility." The impact of an assault on the match is tremendous. Only accept that responsibility if you are capable of doing so, or if you are willing to learn. If you are not, you have more fun driving the easy-mode heavies or the care-free mediums. Nobody forces you to pilot the most important and difficult to master Mech class. That is a positive and helpful advice.

Also, if you are not willing to learn and improve yourself, but prefer to blame the 'meta', other players, classes, and so on... you will never have fun in this game. Never. You will always blame something or someone.
Again, that is helpful advice. It helped me. I cannot control PGI or other players, but I can improve myself.

I tried hard, but i couldnt hit T2 even now, so what you are saying is essentially " you can git gud, so you are not going to have fun, please go away", I think this is one of reason why the pop is so low now, getting good is the only way to have fun, and those like me are better off quit the game.

[Y E O N N E]

As a predominantly Light and Medium pilot, I struggle a LOT with Assaults. I can do just fine with anything between 20 and 75 tons, but once I hit 80+ things start getting weird. The hardest part is knowing when to expose, which, unlike the faster classes, is not a simple poke process (unless you have one of the few high-mount blessed Assaults, e.g. BLR, STK). You are too slow to poke quickly and the 'Mech is physically large, attracting a lot of fire. Getting your weapons around team mates and objects is often a chore. Timing is far more crucial to Assaults than any other class, especially if it's one of those Assaults incapable of mounting delete-button firepower.

[FLG 01]

ingramli, on 19 April 2019 - 08:09 PM, said:

I tried hard, but i couldnt hit T2 even now, so what you are saying is essentially " you can git gud, so you are not going to have fun, please go away", I think this is one of reason why the pop is so low now, getting good is the only way to have fun, and those like me are better off quit the game.

No. I am telling you to play a class you might have more fun with. You can have fun with a medium without being good, without great experience.
But I guess a medium is not glamorous enough for you, is it? You want drive the king of the battlefield, and you want to be the undisputed king of the battlefield when doing so, regardless of your own performance.

Too bad. You cannot force other people to make assaults easy going just for your own good.

Edited by FLG 01, 19 April 2019 - 08:27 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Well just saw old mate GuardDogg in game. Running around in a heavy mech (MDD with streaks, PTSD from Lights is real).

The key point though is he was behind his teams NASCAR, literally 5 Assaults were 150M infront of him because he was doing... Well I don't even know what based on map positioning etc. No reason to be there at all. Standing still letting 2 of us shoot him in the back without turning around

Having seen that and this entire thread... Mystical claims of 5 ERPPC Ravens... It just comes back to the most simplest of things here IMO. 13 pages... Summed up in 3 words.

Basic map awareness. If you cant stay with your team in a 81km/h mech when you have 5 x 50-55km/h mechs well in-front of you... Ya got some serious awareness issues.