86 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

The point of these changes, is to mostly open up to the discussion of rebalancing PPCs. As of right now, I just felt that the only real contender is the HPPC and the CERPPC, with the LPPC and the iERPPC completely down on the gutter.

I aim to return the Gauss-PPC builds, but at a limited role. I didn't touch the Ghost-Heat limit, but rather the Heat-Penalty to achieve this, which as a result would still penalize the Gauss-PPC builds, but not so much so that it completely deters use.

Quote

IS-SNPPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 8 (-)
Cooldown: 3.5s (-)
DPS: 2.857
Velocity: 1800 (+)
Range: 270m
Max Range: 630m
GH Limit: 3 (+)

The SNPPC, like the standard PPC, is hot garbage, but what makes it worse is that SNPPC is at brawling range, where the last thing you need is to shut down in front of your dance-partner. The SNPPC, would have the least heat of all PPCs, however to be competitive against ERMLs it will have faster projectiles-speed and slightly lower cooldown for DPS. Also the GH is raised to 3x, which means you could pull off a 30-PPFLD for 24 heat, while granted it's rather powerful but at that distance 24 heat is dangerous to brawl with.

Quote

IS-PPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 8.5 (-)
Cooldown: 4.0s
DPS: 2.5
Velocity: 1350 (+)
Minimum Range: 90m (Feedback + Dropoff)
Range: 540m
Max Range: 1080m
Heat Penalty: 5 (-)
iGauss Heat Penalty: 5 (-)

The PPCs right now are kinda meh, because they are rather hot garbage. They do too much heat, for otherwise weak damage, and so the approach is a simple heat buff. Velocity buff is also there to make it a bit easier to use at a distance.

Another modification is the PPC minimum-range, no longer a deadzone but a damage-dropoff means that from 90m your damage becomes weakened towards to 0 at 0m, but then also an additional effect is the "Feedback" which a portion of the EMP also affects the user and also the damage, which means at 45m 50% of the damage is dealt at you than the target, and by "you", the feedback damage is instead dealt on the component that houses the PPC, and the feedback would affect you even if you just hit the terrain. This is also the same case with LPPC and HPPC.

Current Heatscale means, firing 3x PPC with 1 PPC above the limit would produce an insane amount of heat -- 40.47 (3x Base Heat + [ 0.18 x Heat Penalty x Base-Heat]). With the new configuration, it goes down to 33.15, which would be at least competitive to 29 Heat of the 2x HPPC. I could not simply increase the GH of the PPC as with the SNPPC, so I simply lowered the Heat-Penalty, it would still be pretty high, but not that high that it will completely discourage use.

This, also serves to help the return of the Gauss-PPC at least. While the 2x Gauss + 2x PPC were cancerous, the 2x Gauss + PPC, or the 2x PPC + Gauss were the bread-and-butter of many other mechs like the Night-Gyr. However this is just for the IS side.

The IS 2x Gauss + 2x PPC before is at (14.535 + 24.225) + 19 + 2 = 59.76, the 2x Gauss + PPC is at 26.035 heat, and the 2x PPC + gauss is at 34.535 heat.

The new Heat-Scale for the PPC would put the 2x Gauss + 2x PPC at (7.65 + 12.75) + 17 + 2 = 39.4 which woulds still be hella hot, the 2x Gauss + PPC is at 18.15 Heat, and the 2x PPC + Gauss would be at 25.65 Heat.

The Heat-Penalty reduction approach, would at least return the use of Gauss-PPC builds, but wouldn't be completely deterred. It would still be hot though, but it's still not optimal versus chainfiring them.

Quote

IS-LPPC
Damage: 5
Heat: 4.5
Cooldown: 2.5s
DPS: 2
Velocity: 1350 (+)
Minimum Range: 90m (Feedback + Dropoff)
Range: 540m
Max Range: 1080m
Heat Penalty: 3 (-)

The LPPC is anemic AF, no really it is. Sure you could, if you have enough hardpoints and starved for tonnage, you could achieve the same 15-damage with 3 LPPC versus HPPC that has shorter cooldown, but realistically it's only ever useful to the lights that would otherwise take an array of ERML which would have better damage/ton anyways. By approaching the DPS role for an LPPC, it gives a different niche that would make LPPC relevant even if the other PPCs would out-damage it.

Current Heatscale means, firing 4x LPPC with 1 LPPC above the limit would produce an insane amount of heat -- 30.5 = (4x Base Heat + [ 0.3 x Heat Penalty x Base-Heat]). With the Heat-Penalty of 3 for the LPPC, along with heat adjustment, this also goes down to 22.05 Heat, and for scale the 2x PPC as with the configuration above would be at 17. The point of this is to make 4x LPPC somewhat competitive to 2x PPC, which to lights, is less accessible because of being +2 tons heavier.

Quote

IS-HPPC
Damage: 15
Heat: 14.5
Cooldown: 5s
DPS: 3
Velocity: 1350 (+)
Minimum Range: 90m (Feedback + Dropoff)
Range: 540m
Max Range: 1080m

The HPPC is pretty much THE PPC of the IS. It's the golden-standard, I see NO absolute reason to touch the HPPC at all. However the minimum-range + feedback and velocity buff is just there to be consistent.

Quote

IS-ERPPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 12 (-)
Cooldown: 4.0s
DPS: 2.5
Velocity: 1900
Range: 810m
Max Range: 1620m
GH: 3 (+)

The ERPPC of the IS is a tricky thing, as it's the worse PPC of all, it's too hot for it's damage -- waaay to hot. This tries to mitigate that, and like the SNPPC, and unlike the LPPC or the PPC that only got Heat-Penalty reduction, the EPPC is fully committed to 3x GH limit, to be competent to the 2x HPPC at longer ranges. Note that it will still hit GH with 2x Gauss + ERPPC or 2x ERPPC + Gauss, and it would still be pretty hot. This is to completely deter the use of Gauss-ERPC mainly because the two are much more synchronous than other PPCs, as in there's only 100 m/s of difference with projectile-speed while the 50-damage range is at 660m, versus the 540m and 800m/s projectile-speed difference of Gauss+PPC.

Quote

CERPPC
Damage: 10 + 5
Heat: 14.5
Cooldown: 5s
DPS: 3
Velocity: 1500
Range: 810m
Max Range: 1620m
Heat Penalty: 4 (-)
C-Gauss Heat Penalty: 4 (-)

The Clan ERPPC hardly demands any modification, it's really just okay on it's own. The problem is how it mixes with others. With the linking of Gauss and PPC heat-scale, it squashed many Gauss-PPC builds, particularly those of Night-Gyrs. While I don't condone the +GH limit, however we could still have the GH penalty present, but not so much that it completely deters use.

Right now, the Heat Penalty at 3x link of C-Gauss + C-ERPPC would be at 22.185, and the 4x is at 36.975. This means that the 2x Gauss + 2x PPC would produce a massive 90.055 heat/shot, as opposed of before at 31, the 2x Gauss + PPC of the Night-Gyr that produces a measly 16.5 heat, is now at 38.685, and the 2x PPC + Gauss of the Timber-Wolf is at 52.185.

That's kind of hard isn't it? My approach is simply just reduce the heat-penalty. Being hit with GH is still not optimal, but it wouldn't completely deter the use. With the current Heat-Penalty reduction of the CERPPC, this means that the 2x CGauss-CERPPC would have a penalty of (10.44 + 17.4) + 27.84 + 31 = 58.84 Heat which is still around 90% increase of heat consumption.

Buut, the 2x CGauss + CERPPC and 2x CERPPC + CGauss would only have 10.44 Heat Penalty, which means the 2x Gauss + PPC is at sum of 26.94 Heat versus 38.685 before, and is comparable to 2x CERPPC of 29, and the 2x PPC + Gauss is at a sum of 40.44 which is just 33% heat increase, versus before of 52.185.

With this heat-multiplier approach, we could still return the Gauss-PPC builds to a certain degree of effectiveness, without resorting to them being completely domineering.

Heatscale Reference:

Spoiler

https://www.reddit.c...t_heat_formula/

Quote

"heatpenalty": 7,
"heatPenaltyID": 1,
"minheatpenaltylevel": 4,

https://mwomercs.com.../list/full.json

Do you have any other approaches?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 28 June 2019 - 02:07 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

FYI, SNPPCs have a max range of 630 meters right now and you are nerfing them by 90 meters in that department.

Also, buffing the heat but nerfing the cooldown on the IS ERPPC seems silly. It's way outgunned just poking like the cERPPC or HPPC, it needs its rate of fire. That's the whole schtick: use quantity to substitute for quality of shot.

[The6thMessenger]

Y E O N N E, on 26 June 2019 - 08:49 PM, said:

FYI, SNPPCs have a max range of 630 meters right now and you are nerfing them by 90 meters in that department.

Also, buffing the heat but nerfing the cooldown on the IS ERPPC seems silly. It's way outgunned just poking like the cERPPC or HPPC, it needs its rate of fire. That's the whole schtick: use quantity to substitute for quality of shot.

My bad. I added (-) or (+) to reference the changes though. I just fixed it right now.

[JediPanther]

Cut the heat of ppc in half and it would see more use.

[The6thMessenger]

Lol. Apparently Gauss Multiplier is at 8.5. This means that i ****** up the calculations, and the reduced heat-penalty for PPCs won't affect GH that much because Heat-Scaling uses the highest multiplier.

That being said, my approach should still work, but we have to modify the Gauss Multiplier.

[LordNothing]

i think id do this.

make snub a brawl weapon, less heat less range and +2 points of splash.
give the standard ppc 12 damage. making it a better skirmishing weapon.
lppc would get extra dps, about 3s cd, for sustained support role.
erppc would just get 2k velocity and perhaps a heat reduction to 13. making it better at its ranged trading role.
hppc and cerppc remain the same.

[The6thMessenger]

LordNothing, on 26 June 2019 - 10:37 PM, said:

i think id do this.

make snub a brawl weapon, less heat less range and +2 points of splash.
give the standard ppc 12 damage. making it a better skirmishing weapon.
lppc would get extra dps, about 3s cd, for sustained support role.
erppc would just get 2k velocity and perhaps a heat reduction to 13. making it better at its ranged trading role.
hppc and cerppc remain the same.

> SNPPC would still be TOO HOT to dance with.
> 12-damage standard-PPC would be too strong for it's tonnage allotment with reference to the HPPC.
> LPPC CD is not enough considering it's competitions.
> iERPPC velocity is not an issue, it's heat.

[Khobai]

I disagree that heat is the problem with PPCs. High heat SHOULD be one of the defining characteristics of PPCs. Its what separates them from lasers. If you start significantly lowering the heat on PPCs then theres less reason to use lasers.

Instead of decreasing heat on PPCs, PPCs should instead be buffed in other ways so theyre worth the high amounts of heat they produce. PPCs should be both facemeltingly hot and powerful.

To that end I think PPC capacitors need to be added to the game. PPC capacitors would allow PPCs to do more damage at the expense of more heat. Which is exactly how PPCs should work.

But instead of PPC capacitors giving a flat +5 damage to every PPC it should give a percentage buff like +50% damage instead. That way PPC capacitors dont turn LPPCs into a completely broken weapon. You could either fire the PPC immediately for normal damage or hold down the fire button and gradually charge the PPC upto +50% damage and when it fires it would produce extra heat proportional to the charge level. The +50% is just an example the value is entirely pliable.

Also I see no reason to make PPC capacitors a separate weapon. They could just be incorporated into the existing PPCs for free.

Edited by Khobai, 27 June 2019 - 11:13 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 02:56 AM, said:

I disagree that heat is the problem with PPCs. High heat SHOULD be one of the defining characteristics of PPCs. Its what separates them from lasers. If you start significantly lowering the heat on PPCs then theres less reason to use lasers.

You must be joking, the two have vastly different mechanics such as the Lasers is less-conspicuous hitscan with burn duration, PPC has projectile with impact delay.

There's also tonnage, and ease of use. Don't forget, the PPC lineup doesn't have 0.5 or 1-ton variant, their smallest is 3 tons. The problem with your approach is that you don't take account of build flexibility, and the point of lasers as a whole -- you don't go for an LPPC for backup weapons, you go for Small Lasers and Medium Laser Lasers. Do you want to have a good range and maximize tonnage? LL does 9 damage for 7 heat, and 5 tons and 2 crit, versus a PPC that does 10 damage for 7 tons for 3 crit, 2x LPPC would do 10 damage for 6 tons for 4 crit.

And even if the PPC does 10 damage for 8.5 heat or 1.17647 damage/heat, The LL still does 9 for 7 heat or 1.2857 damage/heat, so that is in a sense the PPC still the hotter weapon.

This defining trait you want to retain is just as intrusive as LRMs having IDF as their defining trait prior to Dual-Arc rework.

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 02:56 AM, said:

Instead of decreasing heat on PPCs, PPCs should instead be buffed in other ways so theyre worth the high amounts of heat they produce. PPCs should be both facemeltingly hot and powerful.

No, they shouldn't.

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 02:56 AM, said:

To that end I think PPC capacitors need to be added to the game. PPC capacitors would allow PPCs to do more damage at the expense of more heat. Which is exactly how PPCs should work.

But instead of PPC capacitors giving a flat +5 damage to every PPC it should give +50% damage instead. That way PPC capacitors dont turn LPPCs into a completely broken weapon.

Which is a completely different thread. GTFO.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 June 2019 - 03:42 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Removal of the PPC dead zone of no damage. Have the damage drop under 90m with splash back damage on the firing mech.

[Verilligo]

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 02:56 AM, said:

To that end I think PPC capacitors need to be added to the game. PPC capacitors would allow PPCs to do more damage at the expense of more heat. Which is exactly how PPCs should work.

But instead of PPC capacitors giving a flat +5 damage to every PPC it should give +50% damage instead. That way PPC capacitors dont turn LPPCs into a completely broken weapon. You could either fire the PPC immediately for normal damage or hold down the fire button and gradually charge the PPC upto +50% damage and when it fires it would produce extra heat proportional to the charge level.

This suggestion is worthless. PPC Caps will not be added to the game because the game is in maintenance mode until proven otherwise. Adding the caps would take dev time, which we aren't getting, thus it is pointless to bring up at all. The most we can hope for right now are XML edits.

[Nightbird]

no

[Khobai]

The6thMessenger, on 27 June 2019 - 03:18 AM, said:

Which is a completely different thread. GTFO.

its not a completely different thread at all though. Were discussing PPC balance. PPC capacitors are a way of helping to balance PPCs while retaining their role as energy barrage weapons. Its 100% relevant. You just dont like that its better than your idea.

Verilligo, on 27 June 2019 - 06:16 AM, said:

This suggestion is worthless. PPC Caps will not be added to the game because the game is in maintenance mode until proven otherwise. Adding the caps would take dev time, which we aren't getting, thus it is pointless to bring up at all. The most we can hope for right now are XML edits.

then by that same logic every suggestion is worthless.

because adding PPC capacitors really isnt all that more complicated than an XML edit. it mostly just requires a cut and paste job. Although unless they coded a new charge mechanic, theyd have to use the gauss chargeup mechanic, so itd be a bit wonky, but its entirely doable with just XML edits.

Tarl Cabot, on 27 June 2019 - 03:20 AM, said:

Removal of the PPC dead zone of no damage. Have the damage drop under 90m with splash back damage on the firing mech.

removal of the zero damage deadzone on all weapons (including LRMs/ATMs) should be a given. its never been a fun mechanic.

Edited by Khobai, 27 June 2019 - 09:47 AM.

[Curccu]

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 09:31 AM, said:

then by that same logic every suggestion is worthless.

And that is correct.

There are like 500-1000 threads like this from 6th and without any real knowledge I dare to say none of them have ever lead to implementation (prove me wrong if you can).

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 02:56 AM, said:

I disagree that heat is the problem with PPCs. High heat SHOULD be one of the defining characteristics of PPCs. Its what separates them from lasers. If you start significantly lowering the heat on PPCs then theres less reason to use lasers.

Lasers will always retain their advantages of much lower tonnage, instant-hit because hitscan, and the ability to seamlessly combine together with other lasers of similar range bracket to get bigger alphas. And it's not like shaving off 0.5 to 1.0 heat points from PPCs will even get rid of the heat advantage, just make it less drastic.

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 02:56 AM, said:

Instead of decreasing heat on PPCs, PPCs should instead be buffed in other ways so theyre worth the high amounts of heat they produce. PPCs should be both facemeltingly hot and powerful.

To that end I think PPC capacitors need to be added to the game. PPC capacitors would allow PPCs to do more damage at the expense of more heat. Which is exactly how PPCs should work.

PPC Capacitors don't buff PPCs. Cap PPCs are entirely separate weapons like how the ALRM20 is not an LRM20. Normal PPCs should be tuned up a bit.

Ultimately, the core issue of most PPCs right now is that their ratio of damage per heat is unfavorable. If you don't want to reduce the heat to improve this ratio, then the only other solution to improve this ratio (that would actually be effective) would be a higher base damage value on the un-capped PPCs while keeping the heat the same. I'd prefer to just have the heat reduced 0.5 to 1.0 because I don't want to bring in too much pinpoint power creep.

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 02:56 AM, said:

But instead of PPC capacitors giving a flat +5 damage to every PPC it should give +50% damage instead. That way PPC capacitors dont turn LPPCs into a completely broken weapon. You could either fire the PPC immediately for normal damage or hold down the fire button and gradually charge the PPC upto +50% damage and when it fires it would produce extra heat proportional to the charge level.

That would be pretty broken on HPPCs, giving them 22.5 damage per pop or 45 in a pair. Basically gives every mech the ability to do what the AWS-8Q is quirked for (it has a lot of innate weaknesses to balance it out and pays way more tonnage for 3x HPPCs than 2x Cap HPPCs).

Edited by FupDup, 27 June 2019 - 09:50 AM.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 27 June 2019 - 09:48 AM, said:

Cap PPCs are entirely separate weapons

They wouldnt be separate weapons. My suggestion was to incorporate capacitor functionality into the current PPCs for free.

FupDup, on 27 June 2019 - 09:48 AM, said:

That would be pretty broken on HPPCs, giving them 22.5 damage per pop or 45 in a pair. Basically gives every mech the ability to do what the AWS-8Q is quirked for (it has a lot of innate weaknesses to balance it out and pays way more tonnage for 3x HPPCs than 2x Cap HPPCs).

It wouldnt be broken because you would balance it. why would I suggest adding something to the game that isnt balanced? I wouldnt. so thats kindve common sense...

you could make PPC capacitors add splash damage for example. or any number of other ways to balance it. it doesnt even have to add +50% damage, that was an example, the % is entirely pliable. It could be 25% it could be 33% it could literally be any value.

saying it would be broken no matter what is simply being closeminded.

FupDup, on 27 June 2019 - 09:48 AM, said:

Ultimately, the core issue of most PPCs right now is that their ratio of damage per heat is unfavorable.

Correct. That is the whole purpose of a PPC.

Their damage per heat is supposed to be unfavorable. But theyre also supposed to do a lot more damage than any other energy weapon. What they lack in efficiency they make up for in brute force.

If you want a more efficient energy weapon thats what lasers are for. Efficiency is not supposed to be one of the strengths of PPCs though.

Lowering the heat on PPCs will just make lasers less appealing. Why would I want damage over time when I can get PPFLD for only slightly more heat?

FupDup, on 27 June 2019 - 09:48 AM, said:

PPC Capacitors don't buff PPCs. Cap PPCs are entirely separate weapons like how the ALRM20 is not an LRM20. Normal PPCs should be tuned up a bit.

Completely False.

Thats like saying replacing the AC2 with the Light AC2 wouldnt be a buff.

If PPC+Cap replaces PPC as an overall better weapon then its a buff.

Edited by Khobai, 27 June 2019 - 11:15 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 09:50 AM, said:

why would I suggest adding something to the game that isnt balanced?

Because you're you.

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 09:50 AM, said:

you could make PPC capacitors add splash damage for example. or any number of other ways to balance it. it doesnt even have to add +50% damage, that was an example, the % is entirely pliable. It could be 25% it could be 33% it could literally be any value.

saying it would be broken no matter what is simply being closeminded.

I made my judgement based on upon the specific number that you provided.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 27 June 2019 - 09:57 AM, said:

I made my judgement based on upon the specific number that you provided.

after I already said the number was pliable. fail.

no value is set in stone. again thats common sense.

Nobody could possibly know the exact % value to set PPC capacitors at without first testing it in-game. That should go without saying.

But that doesnt mean PPC capacitors isnt something PGI should explore as a means of fixing PPCs.

Edited by Khobai, 27 June 2019 - 10:05 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 09:50 AM, said:

Correct. That is the whole purpose of a PPC.

Their damage per heat is supposed to be unfavorable. But theyre also supposed to do a lot more damage than any other energy weapon. What they lack in efficiency they make up for in brute force. That is what a PPC is.

Just as a reminder of how maths work, increasing the damage while keeping the heat the same does in fact give them a better damage per heat ratio than they have now. The only way to stop that would be to increase both the damage and the heat but then that leaves us right back at square one.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 27 June 2019 - 09:59 AM, said:

Just as a reminder of how maths work, increasing the damage while keeping the heat the same does in fact give them a better damage per heat ratio than they have now. The only way to stop that would be to increase both the damage and the heat but then that leaves us right back at square one.

And yet thats not at all what I suggested.

I said charging the capacitor would increase the heat proportional to the damage. Youre not going to get that damage for free it has to come at a cost: that cost is extra heat. Again thats balancing 101.

So it seems the one that needed to be reminded of how things work is you. Because when you balance weapons properly you dont get anything for free.


But even if that were not the case you would still be wrong. Because heat capacity has a theoretical cap and hotter weapons will reach that cap faster regardless of their efficiency.

For example a weapon that does 15 damage for 15 heat still generates more heat than a weapon than does 10 damage for 10 heat despite both weapons having the same efficiency. The weapon that generates 15 heat can be fired less times before hitting the heat cap than the weapon that generates 10 heat.

So no it would not leave you right back at square one. There is a very real difference between decreasing heat and increasing damage. Even if the ratio stays the same, more heat is still more heat. Youre consuming a bigger part of that heat bar that shuts you down when you reach the cap.

Edited by Khobai, 27 June 2019 - 10:40 AM.