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Missile Locking Rework 3.0 - Ghost Lock? - Nerf Streaks Without Losing Niche


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#1 The6thMessenger

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 05:16 PM

So I started this thread about IS Streaks, and well it came towards a different direction. Originally was supposedly to argue that IS Streaks are just bad at it's supposed niche in the game, as it turns out there were people that actually did not like the niche in the first place, despite being a legitimate role to begin with. But let it not be said that I don't consider them, and thought of a compromise.

I've been thinking for long about how do you nerf Streaks, without making it hell lot harder to use which is PGI's stupid approach, while also giving leeway for lights, and after a while, I got it, Stacking Individual Locks.

It goes like this:

Quote

More Missiles = Longer Missile Lock Time

> Missile weapons are relatively fire-and-forget, although SSRMs need no constant missile-lock, the ATMs and LRMs require at least allied target-lock.
> Individual Weapons are locked sequentially one after firing. (Hold Trigger to lock, Release Trigger to shoot)
> Locked weapons will be listed on your screen, you can release the trigger before locking everything but will only launch those that are locked.
> Individual Weapons cannot be locked when in cooldown.
> Individual Weapons have different lock duration.
> Can only Lock one weapon-group at a time.
> Locking weapons have no Ghost-Heat.
> Lock Cone is at 35-degrees by default (from 25-degrees)
> Lock Cone is increased by 3 at TC1, +2 every Level.
Spoiler


Posted Image


This means that, you could, theoretically, launch 80 LRMs all at once, but that also means you will suffer immense lock-duration as a result. It has been a chore to lock from afar without LOS or against ECM, imagine this mess.

Now how would that nerf the Streaks? Well, the problem with Streakboats in the first place is that it's nuking lights in one-go. Scat which is at 3x SSRM6s doesn't necessarily nuke lights, but it still hits them reasonably, while it's the 6x SSRM6 Mad-Dog and Huntsman that are nuking the lights in one-go, which is very very very frustrating to fight against. The trick is to force chainfiring.

The system would theoretically allow 6x SSRM6s to be launched all at once but, the catch is that, it's going to lock a hell lot longer, like from 3s for the 3x SSRM6s, you could end up 6s of locking, and that is without any modifications yet. As opposed of just the normal 2s and eating the ghost-heat up, this system with about 50% more lock-time at base Ghost-Heat limit, and essentially 3x the lock-time for them skill-boats which would mean that it's harder for them to launch what is basically light-nuking missiles out.

At this system, if you're a light, and within 360m near a streak-boat, exposed for 6s, then maybe it's your fault?

Note that this is just concept, there's not yet any good numerical values yet. So what do you think? Does it adequately nerf SSRMs and other missile-weapons in general?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 12 July 2019 - 02:02 AM.


#2 Prototelis

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 05:22 PM

Missile lock is fine.

#3 The6thMessenger

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 05:22 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 10 July 2019 - 05:22 PM, said:

Missile lock is fine.


It's not about being fine, it's about being an avenue to improve, and use to limit the usability of streaks versus lights without removing it's niche in light-hunting.

#4 LordNothing

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 05:54 PM

i like the idea of limited tracking ability of the mech's targeting system. you give it too many things to keep track of (missiles), and lose precision (more spread) because of it. a thing i considered as a replacement for ghost heat strictly for missiles (other weapon types would also get alternate limiting mechanics) mostly as a way to keep missile boats in check, and perhaps give targeting computers another thing to do.

this probably wouldn't work so well with the bone homing nature of streaks. maybe tweaking the torso bias so that it goes away if you use too many streaks, of course that might make it easier to leg lights when using a lot of tubes, and losing a leg is pretty much a death sentence for a light anyway.

i dont think you can do much with pgi's one lock mechanic fits all. most other mechwarrior games has separate locking mechanics for streaks then maybe ghost lock time would work. maybe have 2 lock rings, an inner one for streaks and an outer one for everything else. i can imagine that streak lock would be significantly faster with a small number of tubes.

i honestly would rather see a mechanics pass on ballistics though as missiles just got a lot of tweaks.

Edited by LordNothing, 10 July 2019 - 06:01 PM.


#5 WrathOfDeadguy

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 06:46 PM

I like any idea that nerfs instagib attacks with locking weapons, on general principle. Nothing that the computer aims for you should be able to cripple or kill in one volley, whether it's being fired at an Atlas or a Flea.

I'd counter-propose a limit on the number of guided missile launchers which can be fired at the same time with locks, similar to the limit on how many Gauss rifles can be charged at the same time. Fluff it away as the targeting computer not being able to keep track of more than X number of firing solutions simultaneously, or something. You get two big LRMs or ATMs, three SSRM6s, or four of any smaller launcher. Anything over those limits? Whoops, so sad- it's fired unguided instead. It'd be better to do it by tube count per missile type, but I somehow doubt that's within the current scope of the balance team's coding abilities.

Or, hell, just ramp the ghost heat up on the guided missile types until it's no longer possible to snap off guided missile alphas able to kill or cripple in one volley without a quick trip to shutdownsville. Because, frankly, it's ludicrous that quad PPCs will nuke you faster than the enemy, but auto-aimed missilederp can puke up a full alpha with a penalty more comparable to a stern disapproving gaze.

#6 Novakaine

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 08:44 PM

Lock on time is far to long period.

#7 Prototelis

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 08:50 PM

Try getting your own locks.

#8 Nightbird

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 08:53 PM

Lock on weapons are exactly where they should be in this game

useless

Edited by Nightbird, 15 July 2019 - 10:26 AM.


#9 dario03

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 09:47 PM

Why wouldn't we want to lose the streak niche? It doesn't make sense to have a some what auto-aim weapon be weak against the higher performing more used classes, and strong against common builds of the lower performing less used class. Would make more sense to rebalance the weapon so that it is more equal vs the classes or even stronger vs big mechs and weaker vs lighter mechs.

Something like lower the damage of streaks but make them focus torsos against bigger mechs and still spread against smaller mechs. Or always fire all missiles against big mechs but not fire all against smaller mechs (like a jam). Or if that's to much work just lower damage but give them a faster rate of fire so the dps is about the same but the alpha is much lower, maybe a velocity nerf to weaken them vs lights.

Edited by dario03, 10 July 2019 - 09:50 PM.


#10 Kotzi

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 11:24 PM

I got another idea to nerf Streaks. Send a heavier mech. There are 12 enemies if anyone of them got streaks call reinforcement or attack another enemy.

#11 Vellron2005

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 11:51 PM

Lock-on mechanics in this game are nerfed beyond any semblance of fun in this game..

All lock-on weapons suffer from this..

I don't think Streaks need a nerf. Lights need a counter. Right now, they still one-shot assaults from the back, and can take assault level alphas to the face and not change a shade..

Buff lock-on mechanics for all lock on weapons.

#12 Prototelis

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 11:55 PM

Your "assault level alphas" are IS lrms which do no damage under 90 meters. You die to lights because you isolate yourself on purpose to farm damage.

You are the reason they made those changes; grats.

#13 Ssamout

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 12:16 AM

With a tag one gets almost an instant lock and can start lobbing shittubes with no problems.

IF you only carry weapons with minimum range in a slow mech and cant position correctly, hanging with the team makes life easier, usually some bugger has close range weaponry.

#14 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 12:18 AM

The6thMessenger : *Proposes some changes to the lock-on mechanics*

PGI : "Uh-huh, uh-huh. Nice! We'll tweak those Auto-cannons for the next patch. And while we're at it, here's a tweak for the Small Laser as well to...."

MWO Community : "Curses!!!"

Edited by FRAGTAST1C, 11 July 2019 - 12:18 AM.


#15 Davegt27

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 01:02 AM

OP

Quote

I've been thinking for long about how do you nerf Streaks,



ok what's wrong with streaks exactly ??

#16 Kotzi

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 01:08 AM

View PostDavegt27, on 11 July 2019 - 01:02 AM, said:

OP



ok what's wrong with streaks exactly ??

You cant suicide rush an enemy and have to think before engaging as a light.

#17 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 02:56 AM

The thing is, your proposed change makes any streakboat completely horrible vs everything, not just lights. You force it to chainfire vs a light mech, but also vs an assault. So by the time your 6xSSRM6 MDD fires his third launcher in chainfire it will already eat two heavy gauss alphas from a Fafnir.

Steaks aren't a problem. And I'm telling you this as a rather proficient light pilot. In fact I'm happy to see a steakboat on an enemy team when piloting a light because I know that a.) it'll waste time chasing me even tho its far slower and b.) it'll be utterly ineffective against anything else on my team that is 45t+. If you are having trouble playing against streak boats as a light, then pick a light with stealth armor. It is literally a hard counter.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 11 July 2019 - 02:56 AM.


#18 HammerMaster

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 03:01 AM

This thread again.

#19 The6thMessenger

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 03:28 AM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 11 July 2019 - 02:56 AM, said:

The thing is, your proposed change makes any streakboat completely horrible vs everything, not just lights. You force it to chainfire vs a light mech, but also vs an assault. So by the time your 6xSSRM6 MDD fires his third launcher in chainfire it will already eat two heavy gauss alphas from a Fafnir.


Streaks being most effective versus lights? Kinda the point of the weapon isn't it? It's really about the concept. It could be done with different damage values, maybe even shorter cooldown.

It's not as forced to chain-fire to assault, versus lights. Part of the Lock-Duration nerf is expecting that the mobility and the ability to juke is a massive factor in trying to limit the effectiveness of the Streaks, it's just not the same with assaults. You're looking to fight lights versus 130 to 150 KPH, whereas assaults would probably be at 48 to 65 kph at their slower configuration.

If you're versus an assault at 48 to 65 KPH, it doesn't matter if you could fire quickly with streaks or not, direct-fire would still be a lot better.

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 11 July 2019 - 02:56 AM, said:

Steaks aren't a problem. And I'm telling you this as a rather proficient light pilot.


Honestly, a breath of fresh air. I had a debacle with a certain overperforming swordfish who aren't too keen with streaks as light-hunting tool, or the role itself as a whole.

Remember when LRMs only had one arc? And it was ****, and shat upon? I just want to do the same thing with SSRMs. But it seems people are fine with complacency.

If people don't want this, it's fine, enjoy the cheap anti-light weapon.

View Postdario03, on 10 July 2019 - 09:47 PM, said:

Why wouldn't we want to lose the streak niche? It doesn't make sense to have a some what auto-aim weapon be weak against the higher performing more used classes, and strong against common builds of the lower performing less used class. Would make more sense to rebalance the weapon so that it is more equal vs the classes or even stronger vs big mechs and weaker vs lighter mechs.


That's kind of expected considering that Lights are inherently fragile in the first place. Given with lasers and other PPFLD, it's just a question of skill. Either would nuke the light given with a good volley. Now this outrage is really just the one-uppery, the need for distinction.

View Postdario03, on 10 July 2019 - 09:47 PM, said:

Something like lower the damage of streaks but make them focus torsos against bigger mechs and still spread against smaller mechs.


January 22 2019 Patch did weighted homing already, and if anything, the IS SRMs have 2.15 damage/missile, the IS SRM is at 2.00, and the clan is just at 2 at both.

View Postdario03, on 10 July 2019 - 09:47 PM, said:

Or always fire all missiles against big mechs but not fire all against smaller mechs (like a jam). Or if that's to much work just lower damage but give them a faster rate of fire so the dps is about the same but the alpha is much lower, maybe a velocity nerf to weaken them vs lights.


Well, to be fair, I always thought that SSRMs should have been firing in stream.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 11 July 2019 - 04:06 AM.


#20 thievingmagpi

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 06:51 AM

View PostVellron2005, on 10 July 2019 - 11:51 PM, said:

Lock-on mechanics in this game are nerfed beyond any semblance of fun in this game..

All lock-on weapons suffer from this..

I don't think Streaks need a nerf. Lights need a counter. Right now, they still one-shot assaults from the back, and can take assault level alphas to the face and not change a shade..

Buff lock-on mechanics for all lock on weapons.



weapons that tend to ruin lights


Heavy Gauss

Ac20

LB20x

And those are only *single* weapons.


Some mechs can fit more than one of those weapons. Some mechs can even fit multiple smaller weapons like 4xLB10x. 3xLB10x. LB10x and SRM2, AC20 and SRM6, Gauss and Lasers, 5-6 MPL....

The best part is they are all useful against things larger than 30 tons too.

Edited by thievingmagpi, 11 July 2019 - 06:52 AM.






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