161 replies to this topic

[VonBruinwald]

SirSmokes, on 28 July 2019 - 11:01 AM, said:

Are you really trying to argue the epic game stores not substandard compared to steam?

Oh no no no. Epic is massively lacking in necessary features but that will change in time as the platform develops. When you say "people have games on Steam already and don't want to have another account with a another login in" that's just people being lazy.

[The pessimistic optimist]

No that's just me not wanting my game library spread all over the place. I call it more not wanting extra head aches. I know were my games are I have a Steam app to keep them secure and make account recovery a breeze. I know steam works very well and has all the features I want. I already beta tested Steam for Valve yea my account that old. I really don't care to be Epic beta tester thanks.

[Agent of Change]

Honestly For me it's simple and I'll add to the kicking of this very dead horse.

All of the security issues, Epic company practices issues, allegations of collaboration with Chinese companies of poor reputation, etc... All of that is worth investigating and alone would be worth deciding on. But for me it starts with a hard No on trying to compete in 2019 with something that may well have been outclassed by Steam version 1.

That's really the bottom line for me. I can wait wait for a game to get out of it's timed exclusive and play it a year later... I won't install garbage launcher just to chase the latest releases. If you want to truly compete with steam as a digital distribution hub? Come correct or don't come at all.

[Moldur]

Tencent and the Chinese government by proxy just need to access your entire hard drive to make sure you aren't using cheats bro, you want to play the fun video game don't you bro? It's not a big deal! It'll be different this time bro! Dude it's just a really big Chinese multinational investment holding conglomerate. Do you really think the Chinese government would be interested in hijacking the potential for unfettered access to the world's information regardless of the company's approval or level of involvement? C'mon. This is China here, the most fair and respected players of IP laws and our national security. Surely you don't think they would steal information on individuals or steal people's life's work and scientific or other industrial discoveries and trade secrets in order to reverse engineer them and compete or pull the rug out from our own domestic industries do you? That's ridiculous and has zero precedent. Look we're talking about the same government that did absolutely nothing noteworthy on June 4th 1989. It's ok man just download the Epic Launcher it's not a big deal dude.

[Ajantise]

Steam wanted a 35% cut, Epic wanted 12% ==Capitalism. Businesses went over to Epic. What is the problem? Why not sell on both platforms with different prices? 49,99$ on Epic, and 60$ on Steam? What would you buy?

[Nesutizale]

In regard to the titel....I don't hate Epic. Its an upcomming destributor that has a, lets call it troubled start.
They definitly have to make up for those errors and have to work on the shop in general.

I looked at it the first time today and at first glance...kinda underwhelming? They not only need the games but also the entire structure around it. This is kinda the barebone structure of a shop that even lacks a wishlist. In an age where games come out in mass a wishlist is my Nr1 tool to keep even track of all the stuff.

In general I welcome another store. Time will tell if it will be accepted by costumers or not and if their agressive current behavior will work for or against them. Before I buy there I will wait until either Epic can solve its problems and make its store comparable to others. Most likely when the exclusiveness is over and I can compare prices and service between the different shops.

Until then I am more on a neutral ground with a tendance of not likeing it. Lets see where it stands in a year, steam was bad at its start too (remember how everyone complaint about exclusive steam titles like Half Life?) and GOG was also not that good.

[Edit]
In regard to MW5, PGI and Epic. Understand PGI about the why, not happy with the late telling us about it and borderline falls advertisement with the steam key. Also they have to do a mailing for all preorders.

Edited by Nesutizale, 03 August 2019 - 01:31 PM.

[razenWing]

Regarding Epic, there's a huge element that people forget...

Most of my friends are on Steam. So, unless I want to fracture my interaction with them, I am not moving to Epic. Contrary to popular beliefs... gamers are not all sit in the basement nerds.

We like to have friends to some capacity.

Remember when AOL was like the only messenger around? And everyone was on it? That to me, was wonderful. Then came like 5 different messenger apps... and even now, on your phone, you need to install whatsapp, wechat, line, skout, and whatever programs available to bind all your friends together. Don't have one app? Sorry, guess you not talking to that group of people.

O and, look at the Epic interface, it offers literally zero interactive elements. No community. No badges or accomplishment. It's pure garbage.

[xe N on]

I normally don't pre-order games, because it is a usually high risk low reward deal. I wait normally for reviews before buying any game.

But with all these whiners here, I really think about pre-ordering MW5 now ... This rage is just ridiculous and immature ...

Edited by xe N on, 03 August 2019 - 11:13 PM.

[xe N on]

Moldur, on 01 August 2019 - 10:35 AM, said:

Tencent and the Chinese government by proxy just need to access your entire hard drive to make sure you aren't using cheats bro, you want to play the fun video game don't you bro?

If the Chinese governments want to catch your personal data, they won't need to use epic games store lol. In the first step, they can simply buy data from traders already available. And if Chinese hackers are able to infiltrate government and company security networks, they won't have any problems with you home PC.

Apparently there are still people that think that the internet is a anonymous place? You personal data is already mined and available for purchase. If you want to prevent personal data mining, you really need to start using chaining VPNs and masking your IP. Best to access only from public net access to prevent tracking. Only use separate computers very time freshly installed to prevent leaving foot prints behind. And start using Unix/Linus instead of Windows PCs would be a good idea too, because Windows already leak a lot of data to MS servers.

Edited by xe N on, 03 August 2019 - 11:26 PM.

[Nesutizale]

Friendslist
99% of the time its turned off when I play singleplayer titles like MW5...so nothing lost. Also got Discord if I feel chaty.

As for the Epic stores UI, yah its bad but for a very different reason for me...have they ever heard of responsive design? Why is there so much empty space? Am I back in 1990 when screens where tiny?

Badges, archivemnts, etc.
People realy care about that? Everytime I read "Now with steam archivements/badges I go "wayne" / "I don't care"
What do these even exist for? To me they just seam to artificaly try to extend the time spend with a game to get the last archivement. I think that is bad gamedesign. When your game dosn't engages people enough by what it is then you did something wrong.

Community
Thats something nice to have.

What I miss the most is the wishlist. With all the games that are comming out its hard to keep track of everything so I like to use the wishlist for that.
Modding support is nice but then there is the Nexus. It is a good old friend of mine. Also a nice to have would be a list view. When your list of games gets longer I prefere that over pritty pictures.

[Alienized]

all we want are games sold as standalones WITHOUT ANY launcher.
you know, like it has been in the past.
that work without any programs on top of the game itself.
maybe working with the MWO launcher for multiplayer games.

is that so hard to understand?

we didnt need any damn stupid launchers back in the day.
warcraft 3 had their own multiplayer net included for only that game and it is STILL KICKING.

that just proves what really works without any problems

[Mystere]

xe N on, on 03 August 2019 - 11:23 PM, said:

If the Chinese governments want to catch your personal data, they won't need to use epic games store lol. In the first step, they can simply buy data from traders already available. And if Chinese hackers are able to infiltrate government and company security networks, they won't have any problems with you home PC.

Apparently there are still people that think that the internet is a anonymous place? You personal data is already mined and available for purchase. If you want to prevent personal data mining, you really need to start using chaining VPNs and masking your IP. Best to access only from public net access to prevent tracking. Only use separate computers very time freshly installed to prevent leaving foot prints behind. And start using Unix/Linus instead of Windows PCs would be a good idea too, because Windows already leak a lot of data to MS servers.

If that's all you're going to do, you're still going to be royally screwed. I am talking about credit cards, bank accounts, rentals, electricity, water, cable, internet service providers, social media, CCTVs on the street and in buildings, and stuff mailed to you by the post office, UPS, FEDEX, DHL, etc., anything that can lead to a digital footprint -- including video games bought online.

Information, your personal information, is money.

Alienized, on 04 August 2019 - 08:04 AM, said:

all we want are games sold as standalones WITHOUT ANY launcher.
you know, like it has been in the past.
that work without any programs on top of the game itself.
maybe working with the MWO launcher for multiplayer games.

is that so hard to understand?

we didnt need any damn stupid launchers back in the day.
warcraft 3 had their own multiplayer net included for only that game and it is STILL KICKING.

that just proves what really works without any problems

Those days are over. See above.

Edited by Mystere, 04 August 2019 - 08:43 AM.

[Nesutizale]

Alienized, on 04 August 2019 - 08:04 AM, said:

all we want are games sold as standalones WITHOUT ANY launcher.
you know, like it has been in the past.
that work without any programs on top of the game itself.
maybe working with the MWO launcher for multiplayer games.

is that so hard to understand?

we didnt need any damn stupid launchers back in the day.
warcraft 3 had their own multiplayer net included for only that game and it is STILL KICKING.

that just proves what really works without any problems

There are pros and cons to online stores/launchers,
For some smaller companies the support and overall framework of servers, online presents and visibility an online store, takeing care of transactions and so on are much more then they could support themself. Many of those small companies wouldn't make a profit or very little because you wouldn't have heard about them.

When I think back, when the game wasn't coverd in my usual game magazine I wouldn't know about it. Maybe I would find it on a store shelf...see store again...then this game would vanish and its creators wouldn't make money.
That is also why I can understand Russ argument with "on steam no one will see us, Epic we stand at least a chance". Yes visibility or as you could phrase it "makeing yourself know" is a very importend part.
Companies sometimes paid top money to be in your stores window or at another prominet spot where lots of people would pass by. Online its no different. Why do you think some companies spend about the same money for advertising as they do for development? Make yourself know, be loud and in peoples face.
But that is freaking expansive. Russ even said that thanks to Epic they now have the money to do that.

Launchers also provide a somewhat "save" system against illegal copies for creators. Yes that is by far not a 100% way to ensure that every copy out there is legal but from what I heard from devs it has increased sales. They would be idiots not to go the way of online-only or at least have an online store/launcher that logs in with the company at least once in a while.

For costumers those stores can also provide good things. Fast updates, mod support, a community place, friendslists...all this stuff. Sometimes also repairtools for your installation, cloudsaveings, something I recently got found off.

The cons are also there. You are binding yourself to a company, you no longer own a hardcopy, when the servers go down you might not be able to play and other stuff.


Overall I did say that launchers and online stores are not a bad thing. Lots of convinient stuff for users and producers have come from those as well as some bad **** like data leaks. Still I don't realy miss lots of the "old" days.
Printed manuals and CD/DVD come to my mind but the old manuals stacked up collecting dust and CD/DVDs...while I can install stuff offline its now faster for me to download and install. You know time has progressed fast when your DVD drive is slower then your internet !

Edited by Nesutizale, 04 August 2019 - 10:16 AM.

[Asmosis]

Valve has gotten lazy and complacent over the years, and it just throwing piles of trash into their store. It's no surprise the larger companies have started to remove their products from Steam over the last few years. Valve don't give a ****, they have your money from the last two decades.

Epic is providing the needed competition to shake things up which benefits everyone. The Developers and the consumers.

How does it benefit the consumers? Less companies going broke means they can continue to make games you enjoy. More new teams can get into the industry and succeed rather than stalling and failing prior to launch due to cash flow problems. This is about actual real things that matter, employees getting paid and people being able to support their livelihood via their work. That's more important than 'wah I don't like this missing feature' and other completely trivial nonsense things.

[Nesutizale]

I am a bit torn with the exclusive deals.
On the one hand a market should work by competition, so when you have the better offer then you should win.
On the other hand I know how lazy people are, so even IF Epic would offer the better deal and service, people would stay with Steam just because they don't want to be bothered with another launcher. So to get people to use Epic and have competition you need something to drawn in the people...in this case exclusive deals.

[Discount Dan]

Because people are ******* that don't keep up with news and would rather have one big platform that can screw over developers (Valve/Steam) rather than competition.

[Bombast]

Discount Dan, on 31 August 2019 - 08:03 AM, said:

Because people are ******* that don't keep up with news and would rather have one big platform that can screw over developers (Valve/Steam) rather than competition.

Here's a question for you: How were all these big, small, and medium developers making money on Steam before Epic showed up? It seems like they were all doing ok.

And if they were surviving just fine with Steam's cut, here's another question: Why is Epic's reduced fee only benefiting developers? Surely Steam was screwing over it's customers at the same time it was screwing over developers, why aren't all these games 55 dollars on Epic? If the games weren't exclusive on Epic, you can argue it's because of "Equal Pricing" clauses in contracts, but since Epic mandates exclusivity, that shouldn't be an issue.

So where's our piece?

[Nesutizale]

Epic also giveing away a lot of games for free that are avaible at the store...that is quite the discount.
Also currently the deal is meant for devs to be better.

Competition comes when exclusivity ends. Currently they have to carve a niche for them beside Steam. While I don't like their methode it seams to be working.
I think we have to wait a year to see how things will play out. Will costumers stay away from Epic or will there be a split between them? We have to wait and see and every costumer has to come to terms with himself.

[Mystere]

Nesutizale, on 31 August 2019 - 01:52 PM, said:

Competition comes when exclusivity ends.

It can also be reasonably argued that one store getting an exclusive deal over another is competition also at play.

[Nesutizale]

Yes that could be argued. It depends on the level you look at. At company vs company level that is indeed competition, one that I hope dosn't become a standart because that wouldn't be good for costumers. When one of that companies manages to get the major share of exclusives it can drive the other companies out of buisness and we would end with a monopol again.

It also dosn't force companies into providing better services or programms but just have enough cash lying around to buyout the other.
Thats why for me the real competition starts when Epic has hopefully spend its money and its exclusive rights end so there will be a true competition of providing better services for consumers and developers alike between three stores, Steam, Epic and GOG.
Well I at least hope that GOG will become a real competitor to the other two over time. Haveing at least 3 big stores to go to that offer not only their own products would open up the market enough for every costumer to find what he wants.

Currently I could see it as Steam offering the best sales, Epic the best support for Unreal-engine devs and GOG as the place to get DRM free stuff and a good support for small companies.
That way each could have its niche but could also try to get a pice of pie from the others.