280 replies to this topic

[Paul Meyers DEST]

https://leaderboard....Clown&f=30&l=36

This is a list of Tier 1 Player posting in this thread. And the diffrence in w/l and kdr is too big to be matched against each other.

[Gagis]

lichx, on 14 August 2019 - 11:44 PM, said:

This is the expected result when you throw new people(T4-T5) in with people that have played for months or even years(T3-T1). Instead of complaining try taking command and directing your team. Otherwise your just as guilty as the rest of your team for not working together. As of now the winning team is determined by 2 factors: A commander to direct the team and the side with the most vets. One can be fixed the other can be countered by the first.

Oh I'd love it if it was actually new T4 and T5 players. They are eager to improve and eager to learn and can make for a lovely team.

No, the real bads are the irredeemably bad stubborn veterans in tier 1 who will never learn, never listen, and never do well.

[Tarl Cabot]

lichx, on 14 August 2019 - 11:44 PM, said:

This is the expected result when you throw new people(T4-T5) in with people that have played for months or even years(T3-T1). Instead of complaining try taking command and directing your team. Otherwise your just as guilty as the rest of your team for not working together. As of now the winning team is determined by 2 factors: A commander to direct the team and the side with the most vets. One can be fixed the other can be countered by the first.

Everyone assumes that when they get a bad crop of players on their team they are from Tier 4/5... On Jarls list, sort by total games played....of the top 10 players, at least 3 of the players with SUB avg 190 MS are Tier 1 players with a Tier 2 player thrown in there.....

Play ENOUGH games and players who hit the low PSR thresholds will become Tier 1 players. And for myself, if Tiers were even close to being about skill and not doing just enough, I would expect to be in Tier 2, if not Tier 3.

And PSR is not even close to an Elo + stat measurement, or it is with a very LOW threshold to enhance forward momentum. Nor has PGI done any sort of PSR/Tier reshuffling/realignment. PGI has not even messed with the PSR thresholds. What they have done has been to add other stats to improve MS such as AMS usage.

Gagis, on 15 August 2019 - 02:11 AM, said:

Oh I'd love it if it was actually new T4 and T5 players. They are eager to improve and eager to learn and can make for a lovely team.

No, the real bads are the irredeemably bad stubborn veterans in tier 1 who will never learn, never listen, and never do well.

Then there are vets who have other issues besides being stubborn/stuck in their ways.. but due to how PGI has the PSR setup with the low thresholds, and with the MM only utilizing the TIER (and weight class), said players are pushed into Tier 2 and 3 where they either simply accept the new cards dealt to them or quit.

Hai, aware that may not have been considered too but then fault is really PGI for the route they took with PSR and not making any actual adjustments to it, no realignments (partial resets) and setting up the MM to only use Tier as the only stat.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 15 August 2019 - 05:18 AM.

[Gagis]

Tarl Cabot, on 15 August 2019 - 05:11 AM, said:

Hai, aware that may not have been considered too but then fault is really PGI for the route they took with PSR and not making any actual adjustments to it, no realignments (partial resets) and setting up the MM to only use Tier as the only stat.

Yeah. I really REALLY wish we had the old Elo rating based system back. It worked just fine, even if it had one minor flaw.

The flaw with the Elo system was that it compared teams to each other using the average rating of members of both teams, without taking into account how far the outliers in each team are. In reality a team with several below-average players and several above-average players would almost always win against a team where everyone is close to the average value of both teams.

This could have been solved by calculating a weighed average instead of a simple average when determining team composition so that players far above the rest of their team would count for more.

Something like the following:

team rating = sum( player weight * player rating ) / sum( player weight ),
where
player weight = { player rating/mean rating, when player rating > mean rating
                { 1, otherwise,
and
mean rating = sum( player rating ) / 12.

Or perhaps something where the weight grows a bit less aggressively for players above the mean such as some formula using |player rating - median rating| for all players.

Edited by Gagis, 15 August 2019 - 07:10 AM.

[Alienized]

Feral Clown, on 15 August 2019 - 12:09 AM, said:

Couple days ago a 32 percenter said he didn't like centre on Terra so we're going echo six and everybody followed....0-12 later I said for people to learn and not listen to a guy with a .76 wlr but got called toxic for daring to suggest it's kinda important to be at least decent before taking the reins.

well ye, giving advice is toxic behaviour in the brain process of most of teh sub 70% percentiles.
everytime you ciritcize them they go on calling you names and stuff (yep, those are the guys that usually also run into arty strikes etc )

had a funny battle earlier on frozen city and got called suicider because i crossed the middle in assault mode. rest of the team camped back up at our base. most of them been brawlers ^.-
they knew everything better

[The pessimistic optimist]

Matchmaking is a crap shoot and a lot of the time. Its either a stomp for your team or the enemy team. Sometimes you get those rare match's were both team are both good and you have a fun match that challenging for both side and it's a good match.

Edited by SirSmokes, 15 August 2019 - 07:42 AM.

[Foxwalker]

Paul Meyers DEST, on 15 August 2019 - 02:00 AM, said:

https://leaderboard....Clown&f=30&l=36

This is a list of Tier 1 Player posting in this thread. And the diffrence in w/l and kdr is too big to be matched against each other.

The stats are meaningless. Some players think they are important and strive for those high stats. They use Meta mechs that maximize stats. There is no way to compare them 1 to 1 as players come and go. For example, some players may have played one season while others played all.

Personally, I have been playing since very early beta. Early in the game we team played 8v8 and my stats were very different.
Over the years I have played more with trying new configurations and I like to level new chassis. this makes for really crap stats.

This is a team game. If played as a team, individual stats have less bearing.

[Foxwalker]

Feral Clown, on 15 August 2019 - 12:09 AM, said:

My experience by a far margin is that the vast majority of people taking up drop calling are terrible players and get people to go to stupid places. They generally are slow assaults or lurm boats trying to get people to play static and go where they think they can be effective.

Couple days ago a 32 percenter said he didn't like centre on Terra so we're going echo six and everybody followed....0-12 later I said for people to learn and not listen to a guy with a .76 wlr but got called toxic for daring to suggest it's kinda important to be at least decent before taking the reins.

I have played literally thousands (Just added it up - around 30,000 matches) of MWO matches. My experience is a bit different. Yes sometimes the proposed strategy is not great, but more often concentrated fire and aggressive play will win the game.
I see you look up stats to see if you should have listened to the person or not. They don't mean a lot. Too many factors to compare that don't tell the real story.

[Snowhawk]

RePlayBoy101, on 13 August 2019 - 09:38 AM, said:

did PGI murge the tiers?

teams right now are utter garbage and filled with utter ******** randomness ... something is not right becouse this is just pure idiotism

Agreed…. dumbest Teams ever, it's worse than Tier 5, Maybe they opend the "Flood-gates" with Tier 5 Players....

Edited by Snowhawk, 15 August 2019 - 10:43 AM.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Feral Clown, on 15 August 2019 - 12:09 AM, said:

My experience by a far margin is that the vast majority of people taking up drop calling are terrible players and get people to go to stupid places. They generally are slow assaults or lurm boats trying to get people to play static and go where they think they can be effective.

Couple days ago a 32 percenter said he didn't like centre on Terra so we're going echo six and everybody followed....0-12 later I said for people to learn and not listen to a guy with a .76 wlr but got called toxic for daring to suggest it's kinda important to be at least decent before taking the reins.

Yep. The self-appointed DC is more often than not trying to get the team to play to their own mechs “strength” (usually it’s a bad build or bad mech for the current map). He wants the team to bail out his bad choices....I see it all the time.

[PhoenixFire55]

Foxwalker, on 15 August 2019 - 09:00 AM, said:

The stats are meaningless. Some players think they are important and strive for those high stats. They use Meta mechs that maximize stats. There is no way to compare them 1 to 1 as players come and go. For example, some players may have played one season while others played all.

Personally, I have been playing since very early beta. Early in the game we team played 8v8 and my stats were very different.
Over the years I have played more with trying new configurations and I like to level new chassis. this makes for really crap stats.

This is a team game. If played as a team, individual stats have less bearing.

One other "meaningless" stat I find amusing is an incredibly high correlation between being low in stats and calling said stats meaningless. On top of that if also often correlates with coming up with excuses about being low in said stats somewhere along the lines of "blah blah meta". One would expect an actual anti-correlation between amount of excuses people who claim they don't care about stats come up with, but somehow thats just not the case. Not hard to guess why.

Surely one can "farm" stats. However since a player is only 1/24th of the equation of any given match, the degree to which these stats can be "farmed" is proportionally relatively negligible. To put it simply, if your stats are bad it means you are actually bad, period. And no amount of tears and "meta" will fix that.

And surely its a team game, but over the course of many games the impact of your team becomes irrelevant for the stats since teams are pretty much random and thus have a zero sum impact in the long run. All that remains is your impact on the team since you are the only constant in your stats during said long run.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Foxwalker, on 15 August 2019 - 09:00 AM, said:

The stats are meaningless. Some players think they are important and strive for those high stats. They use Meta mechs that maximize stats. There is no way to compare them 1 to 1 as players come and go. For example, some players may have played one season while others played all.

Personally, I have been playing since very early beta. Early in the game we team played 8v8 and my stats were very different.
Over the years I have played more with trying new configurations and I like to level new chassis. this makes for really crap stats.

This is a team game. If played as a team, individual stats have less bearing.

Hmmm.....so if we (in theory) were setting up a match you would be cool with me taking the guys with the good stats on my side and you can have the guys with bad stats on your side and would call it fair.....as stats don’t matter after all, am I right ??

You can’t be serious about this. I mean most of us level mechs or mess around with non-meta in QP as well and while it hurts stats, good players still put up numbers.

[Foxwalker]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 15 August 2019 - 10:07 AM, said:

Hmmm.....so if we (in theory) were setting up a match you would be cool with me taking the guys with the good stats on my side and you can have the guys with bad stats on your side and would call it fair.....as stats don’t matter after all, am I right ??

You can’t be serious about this. I mean most of us level mechs or mess around with non-meta in QP as well and while it hurts stats, good players still put up numbers.

Sorry, my stats are not that bad. In the past I maintained around 1.3. Current for both KDR and Win/Loss is around 1 to 1. When you consider over 30,000 games, this stuff evens out. Just a like a coin toss. No, I don't care about stats.I play because I love the game. If I cared about stats, I would simply drive the mechs I know I consistently do well in and get those stats up. No, it is not important to me. Sorry.

Bandying about, because my stats are better I could take you one on one or some such nonsense is silly. The point of the game is to have fun. Even those with great stats expect that they will loose some and win some. Just the nature of the game.

[Feral Clown]

Foxwalker, on 15 August 2019 - 09:00 AM, said:

The stats are meaningless. Some players think they are important and strive for those high stats. They use Meta mechs that maximize stats. There is no way to compare them 1 to 1 as players come and go. For example, some players may have played one season while others played all.

Personally, I have been playing since very early beta. Early in the game we team played 8v8 and my stats were very different.
Over the years I have played more with trying new configurations and I like to level new chassis. this makes for really crap stats.

This is a team game. If played as a team, individual stats have less bearing.

What would you say if I were to tell you those stats I have are from running trial PHX 2, Huntsman Prime PPC version, ACH smlpls (currently not before the nerf), Hunchie IIC's energy and uac10, 20, lbx20 and recently Veagle 1 PPC and Viper C lvom? Are you saying if you ran these super OP meta mechs (ok the Veagle is silly strong but still most people suck with PPC's) you'd get the same results? If so you should consider running these mechs and helping any team you land on more.

Blaming meta builds is silly. People not running good builds often use this to say that they are better than they actually are or face where they are at skill wise. If I wanted to really farm personal stats hard I'd use nothing but MadCat MKII B.

As long as a player is farming his personal WLR and not just mindlessly concentrating on damage, that's a player you want on your team, who will do all the things that help drive wins instead of losses.

[Feral Clown]

Foxwalker, on 15 August 2019 - 09:16 AM, said:

I have played literally thousands (Just added it up - around 30,000 matches) of MWO matches. My experience is a bit different. Yes sometimes the proposed strategy is not great, but more often concentrated fire and aggressive play will win the game.
I see you look up stats to see if you should have listened to the person or not. They don't mean a lot. Too many factors to compare that don't tell the real story.

You're wrong here. If a player with a .76 wlr last season and .79 overall and they are someone who is always trying to call matches you can easily put two and two together and see that his ideas are causing losses.

Stats taken as a whole do in fact paint a picture. People with terrible everything are safe to say are just plain terrible.

[Brizna]

Suffice to say I was extra salty this morning with my team mates for which I apologize, it is a game after all. But come on people, please think more.

[Foxwalker]

Feral Clown, on 15 August 2019 - 02:08 PM, said:

What would you say if I were to tell you those stats I have are from running trial PHX 2, Huntsman Prime PPC version, ACH smlpls (currently not before the nerf), Hunchie IIC's energy and uac10, 20, lbx20 and recently Veagle 1 PPC and Viper C lvom? Are you saying if you ran these super OP meta mechs (ok the Veagle is silly strong but still most people suck with PPC's) you'd get the same results? If so you should consider running these mechs and helping any team you land on more.

Blaming meta builds is silly. People not running good builds often use this to say that they are better than they actually are or face where they are at skill wise. If I wanted to really farm personal stats hard I'd use nothing but MadCat MKII B.

As long as a player is farming his personal WLR and not just mindlessly concentrating on damage, that's a player you want on your team, who will do all the things that help drive wins instead of losses.

No I am saying that is one way stats can be manipulated. stats are meaningless. Yes they are. The people who concentrate so hard on them want to believe they mean something. No, this is a game, not my life. I play for fun not to drive stats and say I am great.

[Feral Clown]

Foxwalker, on 15 August 2019 - 02:15 PM, said:

No I am saying that is one way stats can be manipulated. stats are meaningless. Yes they are. The people who concentrate so hard on them want to believe they mean something. No, this is a game, not my life. I play for fun not to drive stats and say I am great.

It is a game, everyone knows that. We all have lives. We all play for fun. What you are saying is nonsense. If you don't care about doing well or not nobody can make you improve.

With broken tier system though, it really sucks that you somehow managed to get a tier one symbol under your name when you don't deserve it.

[Alienized]

Paul Meyers DEST, on 15 August 2019 - 02:00 AM, said:

https://leaderboard....Clown&f=30&l=36

This is a list of Tier 1 Player posting in this thread. And the diffrence in w/l and kdr is too big to be matched against each other.

quite a interesting list.
dunno what im doin in the 90% anyway, i dont consider myself a t1 after all. i cant keep up with players like bows3r or nightbird ever as my reactions are horrible and my aim is trash. also, i never play meta mechs.

i played quickdraws when invasion 1 started, chased stormcrows around with XL dragon's and brawled with em. (they hated it, was too hot for them)
even had my first 1k damage game with a quickdraw-5k and the magic weaponry of 2 er llas and 2 mlas.
(try to use dat now even i wouldn't)

but ya know, it worked by not just copying the best. you cant beat them in their own territory.
thats what everybody still tries.
copying the meta.
trying to play like the best without their abilities.
no thought behind what they are playing, why it is fitted like it is, how its best played, where to move and so on.

ending up never learning, just copying.
i tell ya, playing the most horrid mechs when they been considered worst of em all (looking at the victor before quirks.... played it to insanity trying to figure out how to make something out of it. ending up with a XL 350 + 4 jj's )

[Foxwalker]

Feral Clown, on 15 August 2019 - 02:08 PM, said:

What would you say if I were to tell you those stats I have are from running trial PHX 2, Huntsman Prime PPC version, ACH smlpls (currently not before the nerf), Hunchie IIC's energy and uac10, 20, lbx20 and recently Veagle 1 PPC and Viper C lvom? Are you saying if you ran these super OP meta mechs (ok the Veagle is silly strong but still most people suck with PPC's) you'd get the same results? If so you should consider running these mechs and helping any team you land on more.

Blaming meta builds is silly. People not running good builds often use this to say that they are better than they actually are or face where they are at skill wise. If I wanted to really farm personal stats hard I'd use nothing but MadCat MKII B.

As long as a player is farming his personal WLR and not just mindlessly concentrating on damage, that's a player you want on your team, who will do all the things that help drive wins instead of losses.

Looked at those stats of yours. 177 games? Base the stats on that small a sample can not be more meaningless. Not that you are doing badly. From what I see you seem to be a solid player. Congrats! But still. Just A GAME.