205 replies to this topic

[Rain Dark Sky]

Horseman, on 20 November 2019 - 11:23 PM, said:

In low tiers, you can. That's because the tier system is imbalanced so that players who barely cross 30th percentile in average performance still make it to T1 given enough matches played. Until you hit T3, you're only playing with (and against) newbies and players who are too terrible to aim straight. You can still be matched with (and against) Tier 5 players until you hit T2 and you can be matched with Tier 4 players until you hit T1

Let me show you something - the track record of my own alt account: https://leaderboard....=Horseman%20IIC
You can clearly see when it went up in tiers due to drops in average match performance.

TL;DR: It doesn't take much to be the big scary monster in low tiers. That doesn't make your experience there relevant
Given that you let temporary success in low tiers get to your head and have proclaimed multiple times that you believe you know better than anyone else... perhaps you need to follow your own advice more.

LRM/XL Atlas isn't meta... it's the antithesis of meta.

What is this, then?

Gratz, you managed to Cherry Pick my (worst?) match of the night.

LOL

Doesn't mean my build sucks or that I can't play.

But, Hopefully I learned something from that.

BTW, what Tier do you think OP is playing in?

Oh yeah, I hit Tier 3 last night. Woo Hoo! I guess we'll see what December holds?

Horseman, on 20 November 2019 - 11:23 PM, said:

In low tiers, you can. That's because the tier system is imbalanced so that players who barely cross 30th percentile in average performance still make it to T1 given enough matches played. Until you hit T3, you're only playing with (and against) newbies and players who are too terrible to aim straight. You can still be matched with (and against) Tier 5 players until you hit T2 and you can be matched with Tier 4 players until you hit T1

Let me show you something - the track record of my own alt account: https://leaderboard....=Horseman%20IIC
You can clearly see when it went up in tiers due to drops in average match performance.

TL;DR: It doesn't take much to be the big scary monster in low tiers. That doesn't make your experience there relevant
Given that you let temporary success in low tiers get to your head and have proclaimed multiple times that you believe you know better than anyone else... perhaps you need to follow your own advice more.

LRM/XL Atlas isn't meta... it's the antithesis of meta.

What is this, then?

Gratz, you managed to Cherry Pick my (worst?) match of the night.

LOL

Doesn't mean my build sucks or that I can't play.

But, Hopefully I learned something from that.

BTW, what Tier do you think OP is playing in?

Oh yeah, I hit Tier 3 last night. Woo Hoo! I guess we'll see what December holds?

[Rain Dark Sky]

justcallme A S H, on 21 November 2019 - 12:51 AM, said:

You really need to ask? Of course it's cherry pickin'. And why is that?

Well that moment when you play with the big boys in T1/2/3 and not the 20% users in T4/5 - what happens with your little ECM KFX?

You 0 bomb.




Or how about the very next match?

16 bomb.

Come on man, stop talking a big game.

Damn, busted for AFK. Twice in a row apparently. I was sick with the Flu and had some EPIC bathroom emergencies that night. I'd get to coughing so bad I would end up puking.

Please don't report me bro-ski.

And what is a Tier 1 doing playing against a Tier 4?



Take note of that.

[Rain Dark Sky]

Let me rephrase that, Since I only hit Tier 3 last night, what is a T4 doing playing with a T1?



And what does that mean?

[Rain Dark Sky]

OP isn't asking what the meta is, he's asking how to do more damage in potato tier. Since some of the "best players" on here haven't played with lowbies in (years?) except when lack of players for the match maker dictates... what makes them think they have more to offer than someone who literally just went through the exact same learning experience OP is going through?

Since OP started with one of the worst weapons in the game (UAC 20) it's not hard to improve from there.

Swap it for a couple/three RAC2s and he'll be doing serious damage. Nobody can seriously deny that. Op, (in his bracket with his skills) will do way more dmg per match with 2-3 RAC2s than with a single UAC20. Not only will his engagement range be far greater (twice as much), but he will have WAY higher DPS. I'd even argue that metaphiles would would do better too, if they would give it a chance... maybe even (OMG) change tactics, you know, just to mix things up?

What if you had 3 or 4 people with multi RACS all pounding at the same time on the same target? Instant delete. Wouldn't even need to "poke and twist" you'd steamroll them. It's all in the math. As long as you can "maintain a state of zen" that is. I'm sure not everybody has what it takes to be a machine gunner... At least not without practice, practice, practice. But "oh noes RACS are verboten. It's all "burst dmg and twist". Want to guess what new players aren't good at?

And twisting also doesn't apply (as much) to non XL builds, which are also "non-meta" lol. So, it's a win-win.


Even using the "non jam" of 5.0 dps x2 on the UAC20, it's only 10 dps. And you'll jam quickly anyways. With 3 rac2's it's 19.65dps for at LEAST 10 seconds= ~200dmg for a 10 second burst. Doesn't take much of that to win a game, or at least rack up 500dmg. All with (literally) double the engagement range. Every time he pokes over a hill he can engage effectively out to ~800 meters, vs only ~300m (with less than half the dps) of the UAC 20.

IF his next mech is a Streak boat IS medium (or a fast heavy), maybe a Dervish 7D, he'll be racking up massive damage.

Not good for picking off weak components? Well, that's actually true, sort of, RNG does send missiles to each component randomly, and it actually CAN work, especially on IS XL mechs. It's not predictable. Which is why it's good to slap a couple lasers on there, so you can direct some of your damage specifically.

As for streaks, IS streaks have fabulous DPS, same as IS/Clan of the same class. Clan takes a big hit in DPS (but gains some capability back in weight). Fact is, they aren't reliable for kills. Except for on lights. And sometimes you can't get a lock. But you make up for it. Especially a new player who doesn't have the skills (yet) to lead a target properly? It's point and click.

Here is where the Metaphiles have a heart attack. Oh Noes, it's dur low skills weapon.

So what?

Newbies are low skilled, by definition. And here is a weapon they can EASILY rack up 500dmg in a match with. Sure, maybe 1/4 of the matches they will run into an ECM and have issues, so get a BAP (or better, an ECM on counter) and git-r-dun.

Can't target components? well, sort of true, it's Random Number Generator, RNG, so it's not RELIABLE. So add a pinpoint weapon or 3 and go for it.

Put a TAG on there, and you'll get a faster lock.

Get a Dervish 7D and pack on 6 S-SRM4's (maybe a tag (and a med laser?))and watch it auto-delete lights. Especially running away ones.



He'll also get lots more XP and C-Bills.

And even if he doesn't get kills, dmg is dmg, maybe someone else can utilize the weak point he made.

And everybody will be happy when a piranha shows up.

Edited by CherokeeRose, 30 November 2019 - 08:25 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

So Cherokee comes back with more cherry picked screenshots farming Tier 5s.

Colour me surprised...

CherokeeRose, on 30 November 2019 - 06:00 PM, said:

Damn, busted for AFK. Twice in a row apparently.

That is your "excuse" when you get destroyed against Tier 1s?

[Rain Dark Sky]

justcallme A S H, on 30 November 2019 - 09:00 PM, said:

So Cherokee comes back with more cherry picked screenshots farming Tier 5s.

Colour me surprised...


That is your "excuse" when you get destroyed against Tier 1s?

THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO SETTLE THIS!

We'll have to duel. Best 2 out of 3. Recorded.

You already know what I'll bring, in me kit fox.

You post yours and if you agree to whatever I do, to me kit fox, Then we'll duel? Aye?

If you want to go back and forth for a bit, that'll be ok too. It's be like chess.

[Void Angel]

Nightbird, on 20 November 2019 - 12:52 PM, said:

also, never use RACs, bad weapon system

Yeah, I've tried to get them to work, because the buzzing chain gun autocannon is fun, but I can't see the net benefit of them - the lead time on even the RAC/2s is a huge drawback.

[Void Angel]

Rose, stop trolling. If you don't know he'd smoke you like a cheap cigar, take it from me - he would. As someone who has known and played with some of the best players in this game (while not quite being among them) I can tell you for a fact that achieving that level isn't just a matter of piloting skills, or teamwork, or meta loadouts; just the opposite, in fact - all those things flow from studying the game. So Ash knows what he's talking about here from an analytical standpoint; it's not just uberitis (though you can see that amongst top players, too,) but knowledge born of experience and verified by the only metric that matters - results.

He's harsher at times than he needs to be, but that's because he gets bone-tired of having people argue with his knowledge based on their inexperience - and it gets to him from time to time.

Edited by Void Angel, 01 December 2019 - 04:29 AM.

[CFC Conky]

CherokeeRose, on 30 November 2019 - 09:27 PM, said:

THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO SETTLE THIS!

We'll have to duel. Best 2 out of 3. Recorded.

You already know what I'll bring, in me kit fox.

You post yours and if you agree to whatever I do, to me kit fox, Then we'll duel? Aye?

If you want to go back and forth for a bit, that'll be ok too. It's be like chess.

I'd like to see that duel. My money is on Ash.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Tesunie]

CherokeeRose, on 30 November 2019 - 05:11 PM, said:

Pretty good point, but my "Normal" loadout for my Catapult and Kit Fox always ends up going back to the same setup, because it works dang good. And I have no intention of changing my Raven, It just works too good.

Kit fox is the 4mpl, 3lmg,

and Catapult is 2,4,4,6 S-SRM, tag and 3mpl. Always with a Light engine.

I used some trial mechs too, in November, to get some special events, so my stats will reflect that poor performance (outside of my comfort zone in an unleveled mech).

My Jarl's list was already posted. I must be doing something right. ~2:1 k/d ratio and my random team mates tend to win if I'm there knocking heads. @1.30 win/loss

You do know I'm talking about individual mech stats, not Jarl's list overall stats. At the top right of the web page, click the profile button. Then, in the subheader, click on the "stats" button. You can see individual mech stats from there. These stats are useful for showing how effective you personally use specific mechs and/or builds if you've maintained a specific build long enough on the mech.

As you've mentioned you've use specific builds on specific mechs, you should be able to get more reliable data on those specific build's performance for yourself. This data, though mostly relevant to yourself and whatever tiers you play at, is a better data set to debate a build's performance from. A few select screen shots on the other hand doesn't realistically prove anything, besides that you've had a few "good matches" with the mech/build in question.

Overall, K/D is also a questionable stat to look at, as you can do most of the work on a target only for someone else to have a well timed shot finish them off. W/L is a better gauge, but even that can have it's flaws. This is why I like to look at efficiency from more than a single data set, and I like to focus more on damage per match and damage per ton per match. This relates more to how effective you are with the tonnage you bring in per match.

Of course, each person will gauge their effectiveness (if they even care to) via different means and different metric sets. Average experience earned per match can also be a valid data point, as in theory this shows how much help you probably where to your team in a match. Just as an alternative example of data crunching.

CherokeeRose, on 30 November 2019 - 05:26 PM, said:

I stuck a BAP on my Catapult yesterday, and it didn't seem to work VS an ECM mech yesterday. Even with TAG. :-/

Maybe it just changes the range at which the streaks will lock?

Know what it does work against? Them lights trying to do a hit and run. LOL.



Yeah, RACs have some issues, but there is balance in all things. And they teach you to lead your target, something newbies need (or you just miss a lot and fail)

BAP and CAP each will disable the nearest enemy ECM unit within it's effective range. Most likely, you had multiple ECM units on you at once, and it overwhelmed your BAP abilities.

TAG will not work if you (as the TAGer yourself) are under the effects of enemy ECM.

BAP and CAP decreases the time needed to get data from a target lock. They do not have any effects on missile locks. This is the difference between a "target lock" and a "missile lock", and is a common confusion.

SSRMs also typically increase damage scores as they artificially spread damage across a target. Meanwhile, more pin point weapons tend to be more effective at landing damage onto a specific area, meaning damage "can" be placed more effectively to drop targets, resulting in typically lower damage scores but the possibility of more efficient damage placement and a better ability to kill targets while dealing less damage. (LRMs and ATMs also suffer this to some extent, but typically not as badly as SSRMs.)

My problem with RACs tend to be their wind up times. They can be used to good effect, but I personally prefer more responsive weapons on my mechs, such as UAC10s, lasers, PPCs, etc. Of course, this can come down to preference, which is why I've not said anything against RACs nor RAC builds.

[mxs]

Thanks ASH for this Marauder build. I'm not a really good player, (older guy) but love the game. I am also a big fan of the RAC's.I use them on all my Inner Sphere Mechs. This build will add to them!

Cheers!

Edited by mxs, 01 December 2019 - 02:02 PM.

[Rain Dark Sky]

Interesting. Jarl's List doesn't even come close to matching. WTF is up with that?

You can still see my Butterbee build is still awesome though. I mostly ran Streaks and MPL.

I've been using a lot of LRM for November (Purifier and Butterbee) because I've spent about 1/3 of my time playing with 750-1750 Latency. Stuck out in the woods with satellite, and nothing to do. Testing builds to see what might work with such crappy internet. Not much does work. When your Lag bounces +/- 1 second (almost) constantly you get so many lag spikes it really messes with your aim. Using guided weapons seems to help a little. Plus I had to disable VOIP because it cases random "several minute long" lag spikes. So I'm playing deaf too.

I expect my JL rating to plummet for November... don't care. LOL.

[Rain Dark Sky]

I made a special build just for Ash, just in case he tried to come at me with a Piranha in my Kit Fox. I did stipulate I could change my kit fox, what i didn't say is that includes turning it into a Butterbee.

So I tested it in QP tonight, stuck out in the woods, with a 750-1750 (or 1250 +/- 500 ms lag) -randomly spiking Satellite internet connection. If you can think of a worse handicap to test a build, I can't think of one. It's almost painful to play.

Probably almost approximates what it's like to be a newbie "just starting to play" this game. Since I played MW2/3 "back in the day" I'm not a TOTAL newb... sort of.

So I played only 5 games, with my "Piranha's are tasty build", and documented each one.

No cherry picking.













In 5 games, I had 6/2 K/D, and 3/2 W/L, 342dmg/match.

[Tesunie]

CherokeeRose, on 01 December 2019 - 07:16 PM, said:

Some number crunches:
Butterbee: (Consider damage spread from SSRMs.)
- Damage per match: 411.7
- Damage per ton per match: 6.8

Purifier:
- Damage per match: 371.56
- Damage per ton per match: 12.39

Huginn:
- Damage per match: 320.59
- Damage per ton per match: 9.16

[Rain Dark Sky]

Just changed it to this for QP, because of the way ammo is used, don't want to lose the last of my ammo just cause I lost the wrong torso at the end of the fight. Honestly it could stand to swap a JJ for a ton of ammo too.

Edited by CherokeeRose, 01 December 2019 - 07:59 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Ok so can I get a summary for the last 2 full pages, seems a lot of waffle.

A friend said some sort of 1v1 was issued. Whats the deal?

Straight up - I hate lights and even then it is going to be a waste of my time due to the skill gap I already know exists here.

[Horseman]

justcallme A S H, on 01 December 2019 - 09:08 PM, said:

Ok so can I get a summary for the last 2 full pages, seems a lot of waffle.

A friend said some sort of 1v1 was issued. Whats the deal?

Straight up - I hate lights and even then it is going to be a waste of my time due to the skill gap I already know exists here.

Cherokee kinda got ticked off at your previous post:

CherokeeRose, on 30 November 2019 - 09:27 PM, said:

THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO SETTLE THIS!

We'll have to duel. Best 2 out of 3. Recorded.

You already know what I'll bring, in me kit fox.

You post yours and if you agree to whatever I do, to me kit fox, Then we'll duel? Aye?

If you want to go back and forth for a bit, that'll be ok too. It's be like chess.

[Horseman]

CherokeeRose, on 30 November 2019 - 12:18 AM, said:

In case you missed it, OP is "low tier". So ARE y'all are going to try and badger OP into using "top tier" load outs for potato play?

We aren't going to badger him into using comp or FP loadouts in QP, if that's what you're thinking.

Quote

I've read the "meta" mechs posted on multiple web sites. Lots of XLs in full display.

Let me guess... MechSpecs?
XL engines' practicality depends on the mech's hitboxes. On chassis with huge STs like the Atlas, an XL is not an advantage but a liability (remember, IS XL - lose one side and there goes your entire mech).

CherokeeRose, on 30 November 2019 - 05:26 PM, said:

I stuck a BAP on my Catapult yesterday, and it didn't seem to work VS an ECM mech yesterday. Even with TAG. :-/
Maybe it just changes the range at which the streaks will lock?

BAP isn't for ranged counter-ECM use, it's a defensive item.
Without a BAP, if one enemy ECM gets into jamming range with you, you will be unable to get missile locks.
With a BAP, your lock-on will remain functional unless there's a second enemy ECM in jamming range.

CherokeeRose, on 30 November 2019 - 08:22 PM, said:

OP isn't asking what the meta is, he's asking how to do more damage in potato tier. Since some of the "best players" on here haven't played with lowbies in (years?) except when lack of players for the match maker dictates... what makes them think they have more to offer than someone who literally just went through the exact same learning experience OP is going through?

Experience after having crashed and burned in more ways than the number of times you've ever dropped?

Quote

But "oh noes RACS are verboten.

It's not "RACs are verboten", it's "RACs reduce your survival rate".

Quote

Clan takes a big hit in DPS (but gains some capability back in weight).

And they also gain it in range and tonnage.

Quote

It's all "burst dmg and twist". Want to guess what new players aren't good at?

Quote

Here is where the Metaphiles have a heart attack. Oh Noes, it's dur low skills weapon.
So what?
Newbies are low skilled, by definition.

You're effectively telling them "you're bad, don't bother trying to improve, just stay in your comfort zone" and think we're snobs for telling them they can do better and owe it to themselves to try?

Quote

Get a Dervish 7D and pack on 6 S-SRM4's (maybe a tag (and a med laser?))and watch it auto-delete lights. Especially running away ones.

Slow, hot, Bushwacker P1 supports same loadouts with better hitboxes.

Edited by Horseman, 02 December 2019 - 08:26 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Fight! Fight! Fight!

[Bowelhacker]

justcallme A S H, on 01 December 2019 - 09:08 PM, said:

Ok so can I get a summary for the last 2 full pages, seems a lot of waffle. A friend said some sort of 1v1 was issued. Whats the deal? Straight up - I hate lights and even then it is going to be a waste of my time due to the skill gap I already know exists here.

Come on, Cherokee, you've already got him running scared!!