205 replies to this topic

[Rain Dark Sky]

(Gallus gallus domesticus) is a type of domesticated fowl, a subspecies of the red junglefowl (Gallus gallus). They are one of the most common and widespread domestic animals, with a total population of more than 19 billion (+1) as of 2011. Dec 2019


What he's really scared of is showing his load out only to be countered by(crazy or awesome, what's the difference?) building skills.

He knows it. I know it. Y'all should too. We could go back and for forth a while, because load outs really are like chess. The META is only Meta for a certain playing style. And if he's as good as he thinks he is, he'll know that. Change the style? The META changes. Different group combat tactics? With good communication and coordination? You could make about any mix of loadouts Meta, with the right tactics.

That's what really scares the metaphiles. They worked hard to develop those tactics, be a shame if someone came up with a different way of doing it, that still works, maybe even better.

Y'all realize I'm essentially challenging him to a Dance Off?

With the final 2 or 3 round being live fire.

It's pretty close to the clan method of dispute resolution. They start with underbidding each other back and forth, and since I already started with a light... well, I do have to reserve the right to a Butterbee if he pulls out a Piranha. It's like 87 dimension chess. But for most fights I'll go with a kit fox. I guess he thinks he won't have to work for it. Which is why Jarl's list is Unreliable Weighted.

Frankly, I don't blame him for being hesitant. His reputation on the line against a "newbie"? A Newb who is Piloting a Solaris Tier 7 Kit Fox? Can you imagine the hit to his reputation if he lost?

People be like "WTF Ash, how could you let CherokeeRose beat you like that?



And the real kicker, is that we'd only fight- if we both thought our load out would win in that fight.

[Vxheous]

CherokeeRose, on 02 December 2019 - 08:56 PM, said:

(Gallus gallus domesticus) is a type of domesticated fowl, a subspecies of the red junglefowl (Gallus gallus). They are one of the most common and widespread domestic animals, with a total population of more than 19 billion (+1) as of 2011. Dec 2019


What he's really scared of is showing his load out only to be countered by(crazy or awesome, what's the difference?) building skills.

He knows it. I know it. Y'all should too. We could go back and for forth a while, because load outs really are like chess. The META is only Meta for a certain playing style. And if he's as good as he thinks he is, he'll know that. Change the style? The META changes. Different group combat tactics? With good communication and coordination? You could make about any mix of loadouts Meta, with the right tactics.

That's what really scares the metaphiles. They worked hard to develop those tactics, be a shame if someone came up with a different way of doing it, that still works, maybe even better.

Y'all realize I'm essentially challenging him to a Dance Off?

With the final 2 or 3 round being live fire.

It's pretty close to the clan method of dispute resolution. They start with underbidding each other back and forth, and since I already started with a light... well, I do have to reserve the right to a Butterbee if he pulls out a Piranha. It's like 87 dimension chess. But for most fights I'll go with a kit fox. I guess he thinks he won't have to work for it. Which is why Jarl's list is Unreliable Weighted.

Frankly, I don't blame him for being hesitant. His reputation on the line against a "newbie"? A Newb who is Piloting a Solaris Tier 7 Kit Fox? Can you imagine the hit to his reputation if he lost?

People be like "WTF Ash, how could you let CherokeeRose beat you like that?



And the real kicker, is that we'd only fight- if we both thought our load out would win in that fight.

You haven't proven yourself enough to warrant anyone taking you up on the challenge. Ash is proven, he's part of the World Championship team that's won multiple World titles in this game. Just like how you're saying it's like the clan method of dispute resolution, that method is reserved only for warriors of the warrior caste. Since you're unproven, in that method you don't qualify.

The idea that you would want to bring a streakboat if he plays a piranha is absolutely stupid. No one in their right mind would play a paper thin light into an opponent that is boating the one weapon system that is intended to one-shot lights. It's like you bringing a streak boat, and Ash bringing a Stealth Armour Wolfhound Grinner specifically so you can't target lock him, period. It proves nothing.

As to your whole "That's what really scares the metaphiles. They worked hard to develop those tactics, be a shame if someone came up with a different way of doing it, that still works, maybe even better." you think we've never used streaks in competitive play? Every weapon system/mech builds/mech chassis has been tested extensively in internal practices, and yeah, the meta has shifted over time. The "tactics" aren't set in stone, they continually evolve. It doesn't seem like you understand that, since (and I could be wrong) you've never put in the time and effort to play this game at a competitive level. Funny thing is, if you actually did that, you probably wouldn't be so obstinate and think you know best, and Ash might actually fight you because it would come from a place of respect.

You want to prove youself? Join a team, compete in a league or two, and maybe, just maybe we might take you seriously. Until then, you're just another one of the countless that have come and gone and run their mouths off, while EmpyreaL remains at the top. ggclose.

Edited by Vxheous, 02 December 2019 - 09:59 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

CherokeeRose, on 02 December 2019 - 08:56 PM, said:

Spoiler

(Gallus gallus domesticus) is a type of domesticated fowl, a subspecies of the red junglefowl (Gallus gallus). They are one of the most common and widespread domestic animals, with a total population of more than 19 billion (+1) as of 2011. Dec 2019


What he's really scared of is showing his load out only to be countered by(crazy or awesome, what's the difference?) building skills.

He knows it. I know it. Y'all should too. We could go back and for forth a while, because load outs really are like chess. The META is only Meta for a certain playing style. And if he's as good as he thinks he is, he'll know that. Change the style? The META changes. Different group combat tactics? With good communication and coordination? You could make about any mix of loadouts Meta, with the right tactics.

That's what really scares the metaphiles. They worked hard to develop those tactics, be a shame if someone came up with a different way of doing it, that still works, maybe even better.

Y'all realize I'm essentially challenging him to a Dance Off?

With the final 2 or 3 round being live fire.

It's pretty close to the clan method of dispute resolution. They start with underbidding each other back and forth, and since I already started with a light... well, I do have to reserve the right to a Butterbee if he pulls out a Piranha. It's like 87 dimension chess. But for most fights I'll go with a kit fox. I guess he thinks he won't have to work for it. Which is why Jarl's list is Unreliable Weighted.

Frankly, I don't blame him for being hesitant. His reputation on the line against a "newbie"? A Newb who is Piloting a Solaris Tier 7 Kit Fox? Can you imagine the hit to his reputation if he lost?

People be like "WTF Ash, how could you let CherokeeRose beat you like that?



And the real kicker, is that we'd only fight- if we both thought our load out would win in that fight.

So just another post of waffle.

Either pick the weight classes you wanna do or we can even use Trial Mechs so there is no "oh but you brought META". It then comes down to nothing other than skill.


I will not be posting builds prior - nor should you. That's just pure stupidity.

[Horseman]

Vxheous, on 02 December 2019 - 09:41 PM, said:

It doesn't seem like you understand that, since (and I could be wrong) you've never put in the time and effort to play this game at a competitive level.

Of course he didn't, he's been playing the game for just over five months and is still struggling with fundamentals (as evidenced by the discussions regarding XL Atlas and BAP).

Quote

You want to prove youself? Join a team, compete in a league or two, and maybe, just maybe we might take you seriously. Until then, you're just another one of the countless that have come and gone and run their mouths off, while EmpyreaL remains at the top. ggclose.

QFT

Edited by Horseman, 03 December 2019 - 03:07 AM.

[Void Angel]

As an aside, Cherokee, the reason Ash, and Vxheous, and even I think we're better qualified to help the newbie than you are - despite your having "just gone through the exact same learning process" - is that we've all been through that initial learning process ourselves. And the next learning curve, and the next. Know what we found out? Lots of the things we thought we learned that first time around were wrong in some way. The whole point of a new player help thread is that we share the results of those experiences.

You don't have those experiences. Near as I can tell, what you mostly have is an inferiority complex and a mouth.

That's not going to get you any traction here - and it will cripple any effort you make to become a better player.

Edited by Void Angel, 04 December 2019 - 05:44 AM.

[Mr D One]

Void Angel, on 03 December 2019 - 05:19 AM, said:

You don't have those experiences. Near as I can tell, what you mostly have is an inferiority complex and a mouth.

That's not going to get you any traction here - and it will cripple any effort you make to become a better player.

Well typed Void. You see Rose, as Vxheous aka [redacted] and R1nismoid aka [just call meash] have given some sound words.
However, they have not told you the real secret too MWO, and that is the (no not ping) it's the power of the kliq.

The Kliq gives 3 or 4 players with some ability to portray an air of superiority. For example, if you drop with the names on these accounts in a faction games and expect coms. don't. they are on dare own team speak or discord. Then when you ask what the plan is on coms. silence. then even if you win, by playing decently, but don't do as well as these creatures controlling these accounts, expect to be called out on the forums.

So my advice, suck up to EMP, MJ12, 228 or F8L, players, they are the best of whats left. Suck so hard on e-peen that they will let you join them, then like void said ;

you will have an inferiority complex and a mouth, but also high damage scores.

[Sebastyan Black]

To bring it back to the original question...

Keep in mind that you can do damage beyond the optimal range of your weapons, so think about it if it´s worth to do that, possibly backstabbing and killing the almost dead mech that poses a threat to your team or not. Otherwise you might just announce your position and become a juicy target yourself.

Press R to know what the enemy mech got. If he is all alone and only got LRMs... Get close and bite off his nose. Usually such boats don´t have much backup weapons (if any at all), so don´t get scared because of two small lasers. Even CLMRMs don´t do that much damage at close range.

Oh and don´t cuddle with your team mechs. I know an Atlas looks snugly and gives you a lot of cover, but give your guys a bit space so that they can maneuver if needed.

Just some things that I haven´t read here so far, maybe because it´s too basic or I am blind, not sure.

[Void Angel]

Blind. But it's still good advice.

[Rain Dark Sky]

I happen to be passing through town tonight so I can play with low lag, but I've got less than an hour. I'll be doing 5 games in a row and posting the results, I'm at tier 3 so I may be playing Tier 1 thru 5 randomly. I'll respond to some of the previous comments at a later date, when I have time. I'll be piloting my Butterbee with the same loadout as last time when I played with potato lag via satellite, in order to provide a direct comparison of handicap vs no handicap. Keep in mind I my be on the winning or losing side of a steam roll, so results may vary. But such is the nature of random samples with low sample size. In a build like this your own teams performance is critical to how well you do. And...... GO!

No Cherry picking and no bathroom breaks.

[Rain Dark Sky]

3/2 K/D

3/2 W/L

480 dmg average.

[justcallme A S H]

Summary:

In the Tier 1-3 matches = you are getting rekt.
In the Tier 3-5 matches = you're farming superbad players.


Good to see what Isaid a number of pages back is entirely accurate.

[Void Angel]

Cherokee, you seem to be under the misapprehension that you're going to prove multiple experienced players wrong with anecdotal evidence consisting of 5 whole matches. You are mistaken.

Even within your small data set, do remember that Streaks are famous for inflating damage because of their random targeting.

[Rain Dark Sky]

Ash, did you really spend the time to look up each player in each match, figure out their tier and then average the tier of the players of each game I played tonight (then figured out if they were players with primary tier one accounts who just happened to be leveling up a new account) O_o

Sounds like a lot of work... But you don't have time for three matches against me "cause you are better than me, and it's a waste of your time to prove it". ROFL

And by extension, you apparently admitted that for (and against) new players "non-meta" load outs actually work to get high scores, more c-bills and faster progression up the tier? :-p

Just wait till the newbs figure out what adding a TAG and an AMS (and maybe even switching an ECM to counter occasionally) will do to their scores... Not to mention using seismic skills and popping a UAV every time they see a bunch of little red dots flashing on their mini map.

Here is a load out that is ridiculously effective in QP. No "cheating" with ECM either. Some people might be surprised how much a little ol' kit fox gets ignored when standing next to an assault. Free trades for the win.



Obviously you can swap heat sink and ammo locations, maybe trade a ton of ammo or a heat sink one way or the other. Shave or add armor a bit here and there. It's a work in progress. But I've gotten to the point I can basically build a mech on the fly and be about 95% "perfect". I'm still a newb though, so every time I look back at a hasty build I see some tiny thing I missed.

Note that by dropping ECM it adds a MG (and a switch from LMG to MG adds a fair amount of DPS up close). And it adds a fair amount of free armor to the right arm.

And allows 100% of the heat generating weapons to be on your heavily armored arms where they won't miss when jumping over a Piranha- always a good thing.

Even a kit fox can take on a piranha, but jump jets need to be closer to maxed out, so swap those legs back to jump jets for most terrain.

And laugh as you get hits on said piranha while you are above his firing arc.

For newbs trying such things, stick close to the more scary mechs on your team (annihilators, king crabs, etc) and while the enemy is "distracted", give them the whole nine yards. Maybe even duck behind said "friend" if you start taking hits, but for the most part you will be ignored.

I'm not done with you yet, sweethearts, the metaphiles left some pretty glaring weak points in what they thought passed for an argument/come back earlier. :-p

[Rain Dark Sky]

Void Angel, on 05 December 2019 - 11:33 PM, said:

Cherokee, you seem to be under the misapprehension that you're going to prove multiple experienced players wrong with anecdotal evidence consisting of 5 whole matches.  You are mistaken.
Even within your small data set, do remember that Streaks are famous for inflating damage because of their random targeting.

Which is why I ALWAYS include pinpoint weapons on my builds.So post a load out you think will win against my main kit fox load out, I've posted it several times. I even posted an alternate non-ecm load out just now. "Only cheaters use ECM" LOLHow about "Only lamers target a red box?" I use my eyes 99% of the time anyways, not just "watch for the red box to appear" :-p If I don't think my load out will win, I'll post a retort. Most likely an alternate kit fox build (if that, I'm rather fond of MPL and MG builds).The only other mechs I have leveled up is a Heretical RAC2/MG/S-SRM Huggins (mostly only useful for QP farming newbs. Am I right?) And a Butterbee (you've been warned, if you try a piranha on me I'll waste you're butt). We can go back and forth a bit if you like...and once we agree to fight we'll record it and see who wins 2/3. Seems like a fair contest of not only piloting skills, but more importantly building skills.Which is what this thread is about.Understanding of the dynamics of weapon load outs is one of the most important aspects of this game.Something the metaphiles seem to have forgotten. And when their Meta starts getting slapped down they start months long threads spamming (or is is whining at) the developers to nerf this and that so their "Meta" still works. :-PBringItOn

[Rain Dark Sky]

Void Angel, on 03 December 2019 - 05:19 AM, said:

As an aside, Cherokee, the reason Ash, and Vxheous, and even I think we're better qualified to help the newbie than you are - despite your having "just gone through the exact same learning process" - is that we've all been through that initial learning process ourselves. And the next learning curve, and the next. Know what we found out? Lots of the things we thought we learned that first time around were wrong in some way. The whole point of a new player help thread is that we share the results of those experiences.

You don't have those experiences. Near as I can tell, what you mostly have is an inferiority complex and a mouth.

That's not going to get you any traction here - and it will cripple any effort you make to become a better player.

Mouth?

Inferiority complex?

I've already offered to duel (not just based on piloting skills but on building skills), and all I get it "I'm so much better than you I don't even have to prove it, newb."

Maybe they are scared their meta... isn't?

Maybe they looked at my "newbie" stats and were all like "FML, I wish I was even close to that good when I was just starting out"?

I see they post "Jarl's List" when the boast. I see a dearth of screen shots from this web site. Weapon hit %,, mech stats, etc. Even load outs. What are they afraid of?

A list which has already been shown to be highly inaccurate (being off by ~87% compared to the web site stats) isn't exactly a glowing recommendation.

Perhaps the "old schools" have forgotten what it is like to not have twisting/poking/snap shooting and memorized maps down to a science.

So they are (unknowningly?) giving bad advice for a new player who is basically lucky to just be hitting their target. And keeping up with the group. And not getting out of position.

Fast mechs with high DPS and easy to hit with weapons will always be better for newbs, so they can keep up with the group and not get left behind in the rotatoe potatoe NASCAR, and do lots of damage while doing so.

[PhoenixFire55]

I'm not sure whats sadder ... The fact that the thread got completely derailed, as always, or the fact that a tier-3 noobie teaches everyone how to play the game, or the fact that supposedly elite players refuse to just smash his face in a 1v1 an finally do the [/thread], or the fact that this idiocy has lasted for 7 pages and counting ...

Like ... it takes 15 mins and 3-4 screenshots, not that hard at all. Coz I hope you do realize that "go join a comp team and prove yourself" is the lamest excuse for not doing a 1v1 challenge. If he is so beneath you then prove it, go and smash him, whats the big deal? Otherwise you look rather weak yourself.

[Rain Dark Sky]

justcallme A S H, on 03 December 2019 - 12:26 AM, said:

So just another post of waffle.

Either pick the weight classes you wanna do or we can even use Trial Mechs so there is no "oh but you brought META". It then comes down to nothing other than skill.


I will not be posting builds prior - nor should you. That's just pure stupidity.

LOL

I should start up a salt mine.

I've already posted mine.

What are you afraid of?

Your precious meta getting shown to be total BS?

Or your lack of flexible building skills and understanding of how load out effects play style, and how different load outs effect the tactics of combat vs other load outs?

I won't even ask you to post your skill tree.

What I see is someone who is farming with a click on their own private team speak channel, with no regard to actually helping the WHOLE team win, just increasing the stats of their own little click within each game. Just so they can boast on a web site, using a highly inaccurate and weighted "Jarl's List", to bolster their claim of superiority.

Ironically it does actually help the team win, but at the expense of the "cannon fodder".

And then using those (semi) artificially inflated stats to claim you are so much better than anyone who calls you out, that you are above proving it in an open 1 on 1 game. Recorded for all to see.

Your cop out of "lets play trial mechs" is pitiful, at best.

Get your best "meta" mech that you think can beat my kit fox (worst tier for solo combat, BTW, if I read the Solaris rating right). And post it. You've seen mine. If I think I can mod mine to beat yours I will. You are welcome to do the same. Back and forth as needed. If you are too scared to even try, that's not my problem.

It does however present a problem to your worshipers.

[justcallme A S H]

CherokeeRose, on 06 December 2019 - 12:10 AM, said:

Ash, did you really spend the time to look up each player in each match,

No?

When you've played the game for as long as I have you can instantly tell from the drop screen the approximate tier.

Some of the screenshots have players I know and know to be decent. In those you've clearly got destroyed. That means it is a Tier 1-3 match.
Some of the screenshots have absolutely no one I know, not a single name of the 23 players, therefore it is a Tier 3-5 match.

The population is so small that is is VERY easy to work these things out these days.

[Vxheous]

Sigh.....here you go, either of these first two wolfhounds would tear a Kit fox apart. 3rd one if you're actually worried about streaks (even though Wolfhounds are notoriously robust against streaks, even against 6xstreak huntsman, but NRG is NRG):





Basically two alphas to tear off your leg, and GG, or also, since you don't frontload armour, basically two alphas through a Kitfox CT to kill you. There's a reason why the wolfhound is played as a light in 99% of all comp matches in a light mech spot, it goes fast enough to manage cap points/move to reinforce fights, and robust enough to fight larger mechs and win light fights.

Edited by Vxheous, 06 December 2019 - 03:57 AM.

[Horseman]

CherokeeRose, on 05 December 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

https://i.imgur.com/TIDzOCC.png

Your team
Opfor
Combined

CherokeeRose, on 05 December 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

https://i.imgur.com/UrILPTk.png

Your team
Opfor
Combined

CherokeeRose, on 05 December 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

https://i.imgur.com/xuksxdK.png

Your team
Opfor
Combined

CherokeeRose, on 05 December 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

https://i.imgur.com/lG48nWM.png

Your team
Opfor
Combined
Your best match, very clearly T3-5.

CherokeeRose, on 05 December 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

https://i.imgur.com/GlxZdEj.png

Your team
Opfor
Combined

Edited by Horseman, 06 December 2019 - 06:41 AM.