313 replies to this topic

[Khalcruth]

I will note that there's something the World Championship stats don't take into account - 4 mech drop decks.

I think you're going to have a hard time convincing many people that the Clans have some rather noticeably better mechs in the light and medium categories. And it makes a difference if you can take a two high tonnage assault mechs and know that you're not going to have to compromise drop 3 and 4 quality pairing them with frankly awesome 20 and 50-55 tonners.

I'll also remind some folks that there is no longer a tonnage disparity - both sides have 265 tons to work with. It's been this way for at least a year now.

[KH Slaine]

Clan deck shows 255 max for me Khal.

[Brauer]

In worlds IS dominated the light and medium classes. The only class where clan mechs were brought more were heavies. The assassin and Vulcan are straight up terrors, and IS have plenty of other strong lights and mediums (flea, commando, wolfhound, dervish, I might be forgetting some). Clan side you've got what, the piranha, Arctic wolf, and Veagle as top choices unless I am forgetting something, and then mostly situational picks from there?

As IS you are perfectly fine to take two assaults and then two lights or pseudo-lights. Clans can do the same, but you sacrifice a lot more by going light on waves 3 and 4.

Edit: thanks to Toaster for making some charts to illustrate all of this.

Edited by Brauer, 30 December 2019 - 01:33 PM.

[Khalcruth]

KH Slaine, on 30 December 2019 - 12:13 PM, said:

Clan deck shows 255 max for me Khal.

Huh. I could have sworn it was up at parity, but all I can find in the April 18th 2018 (unannounced) change from 240 to 255.

Don't mind me.

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

When I see Comp Championship : IS mechs dominate.

When I see Solaris : IS mechs dominate event more.

When I see Faction Play : Clan players dominate.

I'm guessing it's mostly down to group mechanics bypassing any attempt at balancing matchmaking, but also maybe only having 1 or 2 worthwhile clan assaults results in automatic deck matching for clan assaults.

[Prototelis]

You actively dodge IS groups of 4 and up.

Of course you see clan groups dominate; you go out of your way to sync with good groups or exclusively against pugs.

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

Prototelis, on 30 December 2019 - 06:07 PM, said:

You actively dodge IS groups of 4 and up.

Well as I already posted that's because there's no option for solo players to passively dodge groups.

Solo players actively chasing enemy (full) groups is overrated.

Prototelis, on 30 December 2019 - 06:07 PM, said:

Of course you see clan groups dominate; you go out of your way to sync with good groups or exclusively against pugs.

In fact I just check the "war log", and no I never posted that and don't go out of my way to sync with good groups, except when I accept an invitation to join one, which as you already pointed out multiple times I never receive anyway (your words).

And as I did already say, someone who goes out of his way to keep dropping with good (more like god) group ~every day, can easily be singled out through an excessive team win ratio. My own team win ratio is plain average because I don't.

We get it, you don't like me : Feel free to stop trolling every thread I post in.

[Vxheous]

Khalcruth, on 30 December 2019 - 11:40 AM, said:

I will note that there's something the World Championship stats don't take into account - 4 mech drop decks.

I think you're going to have a hard time convincing many people that the Clans have some rather noticeably better mechs in the light and medium categories. And it makes a difference if you can take a two high tonnage assault mechs and know that you're not going to have to compromise drop 3 and 4 quality pairing them with frankly awesome 20 and 50-55 tonners.

I'll also remind some folks that there is no longer a tonnage disparity - both sides have 265 tons to work with. It's been this way for at least a year now.

I just threw together 8 IS drop decks off the top of my head, and every single slot has a Top IS mech in it, there's no real compromise in any mech choice. There's even decks with 2 assaults + 1 heavy + 1 light. These decks are all pretty damn strong, easily capable of going toe to toe with clan.

Edited by Vxheous, 30 December 2019 - 11:57 PM.

[Prototelis]

Humble Dexter, on 30 December 2019 - 07:29 PM, said:

In fact I just check the "war log", and no I never posted that and don't go out of my way to sync with good groups, except when I accept an invitation to join one, which as you already pointed out multiple times I never receive anyway (your words).

Bro, there is a whole pile of screencaps floating around of you whinging in faction chat and telling people not to queue up. Yet you show back up once that group switches to clan side to kick off a match.

I've seen you sook about 2 JGX on a team with 10 pugs and call it a 12 man.

Quote

can easily be singled out through an excessive team win ratio. My own team win ratio is plain average because I don't.

Cool story, I'm grouped up less than a third of the time. If I played the majority of my games grouped I'd have something better to show for it than a measly 1.8-2.0 win ratio lol.

I play the majority of my matches in the middle of the day. There either are no groups, or if there are it's random people trying to kick off a match.

You'd get invites to better groups if you weren't a complete pariah and brought mechs suited to the map.

Edited by Prototelis, 30 December 2019 - 08:13 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Prototelis, on 30 December 2019 - 08:12 PM, said:

Bro, there is a whole pile of screencaps floating around of you whinging in faction chat and telling people not to queue up. Yet you show back up once that group switches to clan side to kick off a match.

I've seen you sook about 2 JGX on a team with 10 pugs and call it a 12 man.

Can confirm.

Have seen Humble say MANY a time in global chat windows to AVOID playing because a group is on the other side. Might only be a group of 3, in fact it often is...

I mean what kinda of person would want to ACTIVELY deter people from playing a match? That's utterly disgraceful and is the kinds of stuff PGI should be banning people for.

[denAirwalkerrr]

justcallme A S H, on 30 December 2019 - 08:58 PM, said:

Can confirm.

Have seen Humble say MANY a time in global chat windows to AVOID playing because a group is on the other side. Might only be a group of 3, in fact it often is...

I mean what kinda of person would want to ACTIVELY deter people from playing a match? That's utterly disgraceful and is the kinds of stuff PGI should be banning people for.

Bruh it took them like 5-6 years to finally perma crybabywood and only after he started having some serious mental breakdowns on voip and actively going for teamkills.

[Horseman]

Hazeclaw, on 28 December 2019 - 03:14 PM, said:

the amount of starchiness in this thread is next level, I'm glad HHoD is taking on new players, but you people need to explain to them why they're losing, not just tell them "clam op"

Last I've seen, HHOD insisted on not including any information regarding Clan mechs and weapons in their training - comparisons included..
*shrug*
I guess they just don't care much for what that Sun Tzu guy thought.

Rustyhammer, on 28 December 2019 - 05:56 PM, said:

You keep claiming you get new players and train them but every time I see your group in FP it's the same players doing the same dumb ****.

I can actually explain that, having been in HHOD through most of 2018.
At the time, HHOD was more inclined to fill out drops with members of... I think it was C4?... than to take their own trainees, recruits or applicants into FP.
Recruits were shunted to a training company that was not allowed on organized FP drops until they completed training and were accepted by one of the organized companies.
Due to the acceptance process in place, and a lack of designated evaluation drops or concrete acceptance criteria, most of the new members were then shunted into the casual roster instead.
Unless that situation made a sudden one-eighty in the past year, I doubt HHOD is taking any more newbies into FP today than they did back then.

Kurlon, on 29 December 2019 - 08:32 AM, said:

At one time DatMoFoe would have been kicking teeth in for anyone hackusating in comms or chat without solid video proof, sadly it appears that rule has gone away in HHoD.

That must have been long ago. By 2018 they had company leaders and SMs who saw nothing wrong with one member telling another that, quote, "all <your countrymen> should just leave the unit" or ****-talking the opfor when losing a match even though both were against their code of conduct.

Johnathan Tanner, on 28 December 2019 - 09:45 PM, said:

Idk, Their problem today is that they are stuck in 2015 CW mentality, The super ridged adherence to DC calls, little to no freedom to engage and trade as you judge is best. Derp charging into firing lines.

Their problem is that they have been coasting on their previous reputation so long that they lost what originally earned it and all that remains is an echo chamber reinforcing their conviction of their own infallibility.

sinba1ew, on 28 December 2019 - 11:00 AM, said:

PS. Blod Asp has really fast twist....

It doesn't, the Blood Asp has normal twist rate for a 90 tonner: https://docs.google....#gid=1674340949

BlaizerP, on 28 December 2019 - 11:20 AM, said:

BAS torso twist is actually 40% slower than Cyclops,

Yes, but that's because Cyclops is the outlier here, with the twist rate of a 60-tonner.

Edited by Horseman, 31 December 2019 - 06:26 AM.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Don’t need to teach about clan stuff when you can simply say that they are op and we’re glorious Davions putting up uneven fight against them and it’s primary reason why we’re losing.

[ghost1e]

^^ nothing to add

[ghost1e]

Khalcruth, on 30 December 2019 - 11:40 AM, said:

I think you're going to have a hard time convincing many people that the Clans have some rather noticeably better mechs in the light and medium categories. And it makes a difference if you can take a two high tonnage assault mechs and know that you're not going to have to compromise drop 3 and 4 quality pairing them with frankly awesome 20 and 50-55 tonners.

Why did Grand Finals teams this year use more IS mediums and lights for comp than Clan?
(Not like marginally more, actually more than double.)
Something doesn't make sense here, don't you think?

The only category where Clan mechs were in favor by a lot was the heavy class.
And now you're saying pairing 2 Clan Assaults with 1 Medium and 1 Light is OP...

So, TL;DR: IS has pretty strong decks, and I'd probably even say that IS with optimal decks would have a slight edge over Clan with optimal decks with 2 equally good 12mans... Sadly that's not a possible scenario, so I guess you guys have to keep blaming your losses on "OP mechs" instead of looking at how you play.

[Y E O N N E]

Khalcruth, on 30 December 2019 - 11:40 AM, said:

I will note that there's something the World Championship stats don't take into account - 4 mech drop decks.

I think you're going to have a hard time convincing many people that the Clans have some rather noticeably better mechs in the light and medium categories. And it makes a difference if you can take a two high tonnage assault mechs and know that you're not going to have to compromise drop 3 and 4 quality pairing them with frankly awesome 20 and 50-55 tonners.

I'll also remind some folks that there is no longer a tonnage disparity - both sides have 265 tons to work with. It's been this way for at least a year now.

ITT: everybody else quoting Khalcruth's post here not reading it properly. Notice that there is no negative in the second sentence? Unless he mis-typed, that sentence is saying the same thing as "you are going to have a hard time convincing many people that IS have some terrible 'Mechs in the light and medium categories".

This post is saying that IS drop decks don't have to compromise because IS Lights and Mediums are so strong, combined with a larger tonnage limit allowing them to drop in duplicates of their quite capable Assaults with confidence knowing that their smaller options later in the deck are not going to be meh. AKA, he's saying that IS are not UP.

C'mon guys, pick the right targets.

Edited by Y E O N N E, 31 December 2019 - 11:43 AM.

[Vxheous]

Y E O N N E, on 31 December 2019 - 11:42 AM, said:

ITT: everybody else quoting Khalcruth's post here not reading it properly. Notice that there is no negative in the second sentence? Unless he mis-typed, that sentence is saying the same thing as "you are going to have a hard time convincing many people that IS have some terrible 'Mechs in the light and medium categories".

This post is saying that IS drop decks don't have to compromise because IS Lights and Mediums are so strong, combined with a larger tonnage limit allowing them to drop in duplicates of their quite capable Assaults with confidence knowing that their smaller options later in the deck are not going to be meh. AKA, he's saying that IS are not UP.

C'mon guys, pick the right targets.

Yup, I posted those random decks to support his point

[Khalcruth]

Thanks for the support Yeonne and Vxheous.

Unfortunately, Yeonne spotted my error - I DID mistype the first time, and I DO think that clan lights and mediums such as the Piranha, Huntsman, and Vapor Eagle are ridiculously superior to anything the IS has at the same tonnages. It's likely we're just going to have to disagree on that one, you're just never going to convince me any Locust or Flea loadout can hold a candle to a Piranha, for example.

[Vxheous]

Khalcruth, on 31 December 2019 - 12:25 PM, said:

Thanks for the support Yeonne and Vxheous.

Unfortunately, Yeonne spotted my error - I DID mistype the first time, and I DO think that clan lights and mediums such as the Piranha, Huntsman, and Vapor Eagle are ridiculously superior to anything the IS has at the same tonnages. It's likely we're just going to have to disagree on that one, you're just never going to convince me any Locust or Flea loadout can hold a candle to a Piranha, for example.

Flea vs Piranha, in pure backstab no, but in sheer mobility, yes. Flea with 2 med pulse 5 small laser will outlast the Piranha over time (not head to head per se) since the Flea and masc dance peek poke, and the piranha cant. In terms of Vapor Eagle vs any IS medium I agree, but that's where the IS +10 tonnage deck comes along. Clan going 90/90 in assaults (Mad Cat MK II/Blood Asp) vs IS going 90/90 in Assaults (Dual Sleipnir), puts Clan at 55 Veagle, 20 Piranha to finish the 255, vs the potential of IS going 65 Roughneck/Thunderbolt/Jagermech/(60) Quickdraw IV4, and dropping to 20 flea, or splitting that last 75 tons into Vulcan+ Wolfhound, which taken together is stronger than Veagle + piranha.

Clan lights outside of 20 ton piranhas are significantly weaker than IS counterparts, to the point where you don't see any of them used for any competitive play (outside of an Incubus 4 for mid long range laser poking). There's no reason to play a Mist Lynx or Arctic cheetah over a Piranha, Kit Fox/Adder/Cougars are slow and get rekted by Wolfhound/Vulcans/(even Urbie K9)

This is the problem with clan lights outside of piranhas being crap (I blame the CSPL nerf down to 4 damage for the gutting of the Arctic Cheetah, prior to that, it was the 30 ton clan analog to MPL Firestarter/Wolfhounds). This reminds me back before the arctic cheetah came out, where Clans only had the choice of Mist Lynx (pre MG arms)/Kit Fox/Adder to deal with IS Wolfhound/Firestarters that went 30-40 kph faster. At least on those days, the power of Timberwolf/Stormcrow made it where Clans didn't need to bring lights per se.

Edited by Vxheous, 31 December 2019 - 12:48 PM.

[Brauer]

Khalcruth, on 31 December 2019 - 12:25 PM, said:

Thanks for the support Yeonne and Vxheous.

Unfortunately, Yeonne spotted my error - I DID mistype the first time, and I DO think that clan lights and mediums such as the Piranha, Huntsman, and Vapor Eagle are ridiculously superior to anything the IS has at the same tonnages. It's likely we're just going to have to disagree on that one, you're just never going to convince me any Locust or Flea loadout can hold a candle to a Piranha, for example.

Originally my post on the last page quoted you, but then I figured you were actually speaking in favor of IS lights and mediums, I think you're way off in thinking clan has the upper hand at the lighter end of the range. Clan lights were essentially never taken in the finals (4 times total across all drops is basically 0). The Veagle saw a lot of play, but the Vulcan was the most taken mech bar none, and you also have the assassin being taken quite a bit and the Dervish seeing some play. There's a good reason IS dominated mediums as well as lights.

As Vx said even taken in context IS lights and mediums hold up really well in FW dropdecks and make it so IS does not give up as much when taking two strong assaults. I also would recommend considering that looking at same tonnage options isn't always the way to go. The Vulcan is extremely good, and given it only costs 40 tons is a downright bargain in any setting where tonnage matters. The Veagle on the other hand takes 15 tons more, and while there are more potentially useful Veagle variants the tonnage that a Veagle costs is a real sacrifice in a dropdecks.

If you really want to compare on a per ton basis as well you can compare the ACW to the ASN and the Vulcan. Sure the ACW can do high alpha or bring ridiculous dps, but it's a glass cannon compared to the IS pseudo-lights, and the Vulcan beats it on range as well.