86 replies to this topic

[Mochyn Pupur]

FP has been broken for years. What we have left is the rotting remnants of what used to be a great sub-culture on MWO.

Johnathan and ccrider are bang on target with their comments and unless you played in FP before it became CW, you have sorely missed the best that team play had to give.

Things like spawn camping were rare, rolls weren't but the losing side threw everything they had at fighting back and they were recognised for their efforts. Re-drops with the same teams were good natured, chat was fun and people kept playing on.

I and a great bunch of folk were in IDI who regularly dropped one or two full groups. We were feared, not so much as being a top tier 1 unit (although we certainly gave them a run for their money), but because we played fairly, often gave the initial advantage away and usually ended up killing ourselves for the laughs. Today, all I see is seal clubbing, getting the most rewards from the drop (not necessarily the best reward - fun) and systematic poor play.

Seeing the comment of someone coming back to MWO and their disappointment vs the "git gud" or "it's all your fault" liners just re-enforces the current state of the player base. Sad.

[Horseman]

Leadpaintchips, on 05 May 2020 - 08:12 PM, said:

Our team dropped in a spread of tonnage,

Which, unless you were in Conquest mode, should not have happened. Domination you only need one light per team, Incursion between zero and two. Everyone else should drop on the heaviest, deadliest mech in their drop deck first. In any other mode, everyone should do so, period.

Quote

while we had one of the drops on the other team just running Awesomes, and they were coordinated. They ran right up to the middle spawn and spawn camped the poor souls there, completely disregarding everything else.

They had to cross the whole map to do so. Why did your team not notice them or do anything about them earlier?
And it's not like the AWS is even optimal for that purpose. It's a weapons platform capped to 60.8 KPH (except for the hero variant), poorly armored (no armor quirks, just structure quirks), with massive hitboxes and typically dependent on weapons that are suboptimal for close range engagements. The team you were referring to could have done this much more brutally with Victors (faster, better armored, pretty much designed for CQC).

Leadpaintchips, on 07 May 2020 - 08:45 PM, said:

I barely saw anyone even attempt to give anything other than a 'git gud' or 'lul get friends' advice. Yes, I didn't clarify really anything because the OP was just a initial rage post, and it took about a full page of replies before anyone even thought about asking what my deck was, and by that time I knew that I wasn't going to post it just because of the tone of the responses I got already.

Dude. If you start with a rage post you get treated as little more than a troll. Especially when the post describes tactical mistakes done by your team from the start.

Quote

Solaris seemed like the typical 1v1/2v2 epeen waving, and that's not my thing (nothing against those who is, if that's your jam go for it) so I haven't even attempted that.

Try it in about two weeks from now, when the next season's launch event starts. It's useful in developing your one-on-one combat skills - and those do become useful in FP and QP when the match progresses into close quarters.

Quote

Faction play, with the persistent map and various rewards, sounded more like what I want outside of QP so I figured I'd give it a go.

FP hasn't had a persistent map since last year. Now it's more like a rotating wheel of campaign scenarios between randomly selected factions.

Quote

That first impression that I got from just one match, where a full team just rolled, again to clarify, a single lance by dropping assaults and pushing right up to spawn and spawn camped their way through almost another lances full deck was horrible. Why was this even allowed in the design phase? I'm as ok as someone can be with having a well coordinated team rolling over a bunch of pugs thrown together, but this was something else.
Like I know I can improve in play. I have made that clear so far. But I can't think of anything that I could've done to turn around another's spawn being camped by 4 Awesomes. That's a lot of armor to chew through and what little I was able to do against them showed that they were actually coordinated enough to turn as one on me.

Allowing the opfor to get in your spawn points is game over unless they're already heavily beaten up.
Your team should have recognized the threat and responded to it earlier, by the time they were in your spawns already it was too late.

Quote

But the responses I got here is either git gud or find friends. So if I'm on the lower end of skill currently, not interested in finding a group as of yet, and still working my way through my mechs, I should just not do FP? Would've been a better response than the page of responses that I got.

FP is the endgame mode. There's even a fullscreen warning about that the first time you go into the FP menus. It's not that you shouldn't do FP, it's that you should prepare more before going in again. Build your mechs, optimize them and get enough to be able to field at least one focused mid or long range deck with some mechs you can swap in for different roles if needed (ERLL sniping, CQC/brawl, you'll also want one very fast light mech as a capper for modes that require that).
You can swap mechs in your drop deck when the lobby starts, make use of that to adapt to the mode and terrain.

Edited by Horseman, 08 May 2020 - 06:39 AM.

[Jack Booted Thug]

PeppaPig, on 08 May 2020 - 02:25 AM, said:

Things like spawn camping were rare, rolls weren't but the losing side threw everything they had at fighting back and they were recognised for their efforts. Re-drops with the same teams were good natured, chat was fun and people kept playing on.

Spawn camping was a common, maybe the most common strat years ago - for the historical record. That's why they changed the drop zones. Sulferous drop zone near the alpha gate was the worst.

Let's not make it out to be something it wasn't. It was a lot of fun for a while, it really was, and was supposed to be so much more..... be we all know the story of broken promises..


EDIT: That reminds me, killing mechs before their feet touched the ground was hilarious, so much fun

Edited by Jack Booted Thug, 08 May 2020 - 04:58 AM.

[Leadpaintchips]

ccrider, on 07 May 2020 - 10:07 PM, said:

Here, let me give you some actual decent advice. One: as a newer player this whole 2 decks thing is crap. Find 1 deck that you do well in (don't set a damage number like 1000 a match, set a goal to improve your numbers each match till you hit 1000-2000, there's no rush.) Use that deck constantly till you get up into decent numbers for damage, kills etc. Preferably pick something thats good mid-range, most maps cater to that and if you need to brawl, midrange weapons are better at it than long range. 2. Talk to people on your team. Any good player will give advice. If they act like a ****, mute them. Keep talking to people until you find a few who are helpful. It will also help you make friends so you can drop with a group without committing to a unit. 3. Remember that even while your learning and getting rolled, your earning LP and that'll get you extra mechs bays so it's never useless to play FP as a newer player.

O7, welcome to FP.

Thanks for the actual advice. What should've I done in the situation that triggered the rage post though? I know without hearing what my deck was it limits the advice, but as a general rule what should be done by a solo player when the reds roll up to a spawn with assaults and just camp the poor souls?

I'm still wondering why that is even a thing people can do.

[ccrider]

Leadpaintchips, on 08 May 2020 - 08:51 AM, said:

Thanks for the actual advice. What should've I done in the situation that triggered the rage post though? I know without hearing what my deck was it limits the advice, but as a general rule what should be done by a solo player when the reds roll up to a spawn with assaults and just camp the poor souls?

I'm still wondering why that is even a thing people can do.

unfortunately there's not much you can do in that situation except slap override and get in as much damage as you can. But a way to prevent it a little is convince your team early to move away from the spawn points. A good rule of thumb is not to engage within 1000m of spawn, that way, as people die bit takes the enemy too long to reach your spawn and you have time to receive their damaged mechs with your fresh wave 2 mechs.

[Mochyn Pupur]

Jack Booted Thug, on 08 May 2020 - 04:54 AM, said:

Spawn camping was a common, maybe the most common strat years ago - for the historical record. That's why they changed the drop zones. Sulferous drop zone near the alpha gate was the worst.

Let's not make it out to be something it wasn't. It was a lot of fun for a while, it really was, and was supposed to be so much more..... be we all know the story of broken promises..


EDIT: That reminds me, killing mechs before their feet touched the ground was hilarious, so much fun

I feel sorry for your matches. The nearest we came to camping would be at the end game when it was necessary to kill all the opposition. Even then, we always offered one-to-one fights against the fresh drops against our battered mechs to allow for kill bonuses to be picked up on the losing side.

Like I said, it's the players that make the difference and the pool is looking decidedly shallow and murky now a days.

Again ccrider's advice is sound. f you can drag the initial engagement away from drop zones, decent players appreciate it and will tend to make a better experience for all.

[Horseman]

Leadpaintchips, on 08 May 2020 - 08:51 AM, said:

Thanks for the actual advice. What should've I done in the situation that triggered the rage post though? I know without hearing what my deck was it limits the advice, but as a general rule what should be done by a solo player when the reds roll up to a spawn with assaults and just camp the poor souls?

What you should have done is not allow that situation to happen in the first place.
If the enemy gets an entire lance in your spawn unopposed it's too late to do much if anything but override and do as much damage as you can.
Beyond that, after the match you should review what you've observed during the match and analyze what led to that sordid situation.
* Did your team not notice four enemy mechs missing from the fight?
* Were they spotted but ignored?
* Or were there such large gaps in your team's battlefield awareness that nobody reported seeing these mechs?

Quote

I'm still wondering why that is even a thing people can do.

Because if they couldn't, one coward could hide in their spawn zone for twenty minutes and keep twelve players on the other side locked into the match.

Edited by Horseman, 08 May 2020 - 10:44 AM.

[Leadpaintchips]

Horseman, on 08 May 2020 - 10:38 AM, said:

Because if they couldn't, one coward could hide in their spawn zone for twenty minutes and keep twelve players on the other side locked into the match.

Or they could've designed it so that players had to come out of spawn to not lose, while giving them options to not get spawn camped like alternate ways out? I dunno, spawn camping is pretty indefensible in my opinion, both forms of spawn camping. There are ways to design around it.

[Ignatius Audene]

It's always a hard balance choice. They already worked on the siege maps to prevent this from happening. Qp maps are just band aid to fit fp. So fights can more easily get near the spawns (caustic #hust#).

Best way to prevent it is engage earlier, but still there is nothing u can do if the red team roles u that hard (like I said, I win only 30% solo, and cannot always prevent it after years of faction).

In mode with objective; placing the spawn with even more distance makes defending impossible, if a waves goes south.
A safe zone u have to leave in x secs with the current size of maps would be even worse, because enemy can easily wait in front of line x and execute u on the way out. In fact the best we could have ever hoped for is, that u can choice your spawn point more easily.

P.s. u missed the part with taking command and switch lance (and with it spawn zone) on purpose ? I mentioned it at least 2 times now.

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 08 May 2020 - 11:29 AM.

[Leadpaintchips]

Ignatius Audene, on 08 May 2020 - 11:27 AM, said:

P.s. u missed the part with taking command and switch lance (and with it spawn zone) on purpose ? I mentioned it at least 2 times now.

I didn't miss it, they rolled another drop zone before they rolled through mine. By the time they got to mine, I just gave up trying to do anything.

[Horseman]

Leadpaintchips, on 08 May 2020 - 11:01 AM, said:

Or they could've designed it so that players had to come out of spawn to not lose,

They do lose on timeout. That hasn't stopped some people from doing that anyway, on maps such as Vitric Forge (where all spawns are on raised platforms and if a team doesn't have jump jets it's perfectly possible for a player on the attacking side to just sit in spawn and blow raspberries at the opfor until the timer runs out).

Quote

while giving them options to not get spawn camped like alternate ways out?

Option to switch dropships was suggested to PGI multiple times. "CAN'T DO IT KEPTIN, EEZ HARDCODED!"

[Ignatius Audene]

Leadpaintchips, on 08 May 2020 - 11:32 AM, said:

I didn't miss it, they rolled another drop zone before they rolled through mine. By the time they got to mine, I just gave up trying to do anything.

U rly think it would have any better, when they would not have rolled the spawns? Game was lost before the first shot was fired. There is nothing u can do to carry such a matchup. That is why I don't suggest the solo not even 2 drop deck route. U WILL LOOSE and U WILL LOOSE a lot and so dirty, that no amount of lube can safe u (the difference 2 the Mr. Nice guys here, is just that I say this straight).Of course u can do it, but not if u give up that fast.

Initial CW was the some of the biggest **** fest on earth. U could spawn camp red team and gen rush without even moving, because the defender land on the fricking cannon platform. The reason some memories of this time are better, is just because there where more group vs group matches! And the Jadefalcon and all mercs vs Steiner (and then the Rest of the map) wasn't all golden.

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 08 May 2020 - 12:33 PM.

[xX PUG Xx]

GweNTLeR, on 06 May 2020 - 09:12 PM, said:

I just have realised that MWO does not have any FACTION PLAY FOR DUMMIES STARTERS thread.

I had to go back 3 years and it's not exactly a "guide" per say but it does outline the basics AND has a link to Leones thread.

Perhaps it would give some new blood players a starting point?

https://mwomercs.com...n-faction-play/

[C H E E K I E Z]

I'll just leave this here. Shadow of a better time, as spider says, tons of guys with no tags, not gonna make them run into a fire line, thats no fun for anyone, lets get out there and have fun.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/88952398




Edit: HI CC <3 hows your butt feeling these days ;p

Edited by C H E E K I E Z, 08 May 2020 - 07:15 PM.

[Hellbringer]

what computer voice (bitching betty) was mod is that? sounds hawt!

[Khalcruth]

C H E E K I E Z, on 08 May 2020 - 07:00 PM, said:

I'll just leave this here. Shadow of a better time, as spider says, tons of guys with no tags, not gonna make them run into a fire line, thats no fun for anyone, lets get out there and have fun.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/88952398

Holy cow I miss Spider. Those were the days. Thanks for that Cheekiez.

P.S. - Still rocking the black and white

Edited by Khalcruth, 12 May 2020 - 09:31 AM.

[n00biwan]

Don't lose your drop zone. If the team lets that happen it's bad, can't blame just yourself or just them. Can't blame the opponents either, they're just "forward until contact"ing... can't blame them if your side dies or doesn't show up to fight them.

Dropping solo can suck, often saddled with people who have no idea how to drive a mech, or with no coms, or are determined to just tough out bad matches to get mechbays. Or worse the lance of 4 premade that ignores the other 8 and goes off and does their own thing (to the detriment of the team, not saying it can't be pivotal, just it's a when and how thing, probably comes under minimap is losttech).

My point is it's a mess, reduce stress and mess by dropping in a group.

Don't lose the dropzone, it's like a 2ry objective.

It's open, mech spawning mechanics are well known and consistent, if the enemy are there, clear them out as a priority, if your team is being dumb about it, just do what you can and try not to salt the deck too heavily when the dropships carry the surviving losers home.

Dropping with a group, even if you aren't the unit or whatever, helps. A lot of us are in dead units with only a few active players in but still come and make groups around twitch or TS servers that serve as hubs. They'll help with choices.

Even an LFG group can help, since you can decide together on mech/tactical choices pre game so you can be more cohesive in game.

Mechs and decks are a personal issue, but you probably want to avoid bracket builds and overdependance on LRM, there are lots of people that will spend time with you to hammer out what you can achieve with your mechs and cbills.

Tactically, it's not like QP at all, even on QP maps.

Don't cower in the corner, don't overcommit, don't nsr, but sometimes a hard push is the only winning tactic. NSR with 12 atlasses(or equivalent) through a gate on seige isn't NSR if those 12 guys run through in a 5 second window, go to the same place and shoot the same targets.

Tactics work best in a group.

Solo play as a learning returner will suck 70% of the time, 20% of the time you'll drop with a 8+ premade and get carried to victory whether you do a good job or not.

Everyone has bad fp matches, solo dropping increases the chances of this.

My final point, other than don't lose the dropzone, is that playing solo is a tough way to engage with FP and not always conducive to positive experiences or opportunities for learning. Even if you intend to play mostly solo, play with some groups to get the idea of what should be happening so you can go with the flow better in games with no coms (where you get lucky enough to play with competant pugs.)

I nearly always drop solo(I have no friends) and my win rate reflects that, but it can be fun and once you've got your FP legs the losing matters less, someone said it already, that awesome lance was just trying to end the match quickly because it wasn't fun for them either, not even enough fight to stop 4 awesomes waddling up to a DZ. It's not personal, or even unfair.

[Khalcruth]

As other people have mentioned, you *can* solo in Faction. Heck, I do fairly regularly, since I'm a Steiner loyalist and most of my friends do not really care what side they are on, and so they often switch sides.

However, the mode is 1000 times more rewarding when you play it with people you like to play with. Win, or lose.

The trick is to find people you like to play with. It isn't easy these days, most of the old Teamspeak hubs are gone now. Probably your best bet is, when you're playing in a game with a group, ask them if you can join their group, and get on the communication platform (Teamspeak or Discord) they are on. Most groups are willing to take on another warm body, provided

1) You listen to the plan and do your best to follow it. That doesn't mean you have to talk yourself, if you don't want to. You don't even need to own a microphone.
2) You're honest about your competency. Few people are going to fault you for being bad, as long as you're honest about it and seem to be trying to do better. We were all terrible once.
3) You aren't a jerk

That's pretty much it. Try out a group for a night. Like the people there? Go back another night. Don't like the people there? go group up with some other folks. If you try out several groups, chances are you'll find one you like.

There are groups of people I'll always try to group up with, because I like those guys. And there are groups of people I've found that I no longer want to group up with - maybe I don't like those guys, or maybe I don't like their playstyle, or maybe they're so incompetent that it drives me nuts, or maybe I have no confidence in their plans and it's not fair to group up with them (because that tacitly implies I'm going to follow their plan no matter how idiotic I think it is).

And I'll note that a group doesn't have to be 80 billion people. A group could be be one other person.

Lastly there are lots of different kinds of groups. Some play to win, 100% of the time. Some play just to play, if they win great, if not, who cares. Some have a rigid hierarchy and military-like mindset. Some are just a bunch of folks with the bare minimal semblance of order or a plan. And there's every combination in between on those spectrums. You have to figure out what you want, and the best way to do that is try out several groups with different philosophies. Even still, your own preference may change as time goes on.

Edited by Khalcruth, 12 May 2020 - 10:46 AM.

[Alreech]

amisu, on 07 May 2020 - 09:41 AM, said:

Faction play is horrible. You get paired with derp pugs and get absolutely destroyed by small groups.

So no difference to Solo & Group Quickplay.
Except the drop decks that allow you to choose fitting Mechs for the Map and you got respawns so a dead is not a Game Over.

[Alreech]

Leadpaintchips, on 06 May 2020 - 04:42 PM, said:

Ah yes, there are no discussions only arguments on the internet. The advice that I've seen is 'git gud' so far in this thread, with only one that even considered that there's a problem with the system. And yes, I did stop playing after that one game. Turned off notifications and will not look back. The concept I really like (actually having a longer 'campaign' to play through), but from what I've seen the execution is very much lacking.

You got stomped in Faction Play.
The same can happen to you in Solo Quickplay if the enemy team has by chance players that play well together.

Quote

I did some research before jumping in, and most of the top google hits over the past year have been complaints about wait times for FP. That shows that the majority of the population doesn't play that mode, because no one is complaining about wait times in QP.

Complains about waiting times in Group Quickplay have been pretty common for the last 2 years.
Some times you have had to wait for more than 10 minutes, only to get stomped by a better team or because you dropped with the wrong mech on the wrong map.
Some players stopped playing Group Quickplay and left MWO, other went to Solo Quickplay ("made it the most succesfull gamemode", as some one sayed lol), some went to Faction Play.
PGI recent change of reducing the group size to 4 and merging Solo & Group Quickplay reduced waiting time for matches drastically.
IMHO it's even shorter than in 2012 - 2014 (can't went to the fridge to get a beer because the match maker is so fast now).

The faction player will probably hate it, but using a maximum group size of 4 or 8 in faction play to avoid problematic group sizes like 9 & 10 that only work in one combo (9+3, 10+2) would speed up match making in Faction Play too.
MWO also needs IMHO smaller drop decks for the "normal" maps. 4 Mechs & 265 tons are too much for any thing else than the big siege maps.