490 replies to this topic

[Poor-Life-Choices]

Ok, look if you are going to do this, at least make it a rolling number. i.e the last 500 matches or something. Don't punish someone forever because they took a while to learn the basics. If you don't do well in the first 20 matches you are screwed forever. This is also how you get to something like zero sum.

[Worm Seraphin]

I agree with many here that both new and old calculations rely too much on win/loss, which is completely random.
I know it is meant to promote team play, but you've been beating that dead horse for years now. If it hasn't helped up to this point, why keep doing it?
Also I think the idea of moving up or down isnt the best method. Players should move toward a target tier. eg, a score of 250 should move the player toward tier 3, score 100 toward tier 5, score 500+ toward tier 1. Im not sure the current practice of moving up or down is accomplishing that.

Edited by Worm Seraphin, 04 June 2020 - 07:21 PM.

[Kamikaze Viking]

This is not the right way to do zero sum.

Paul Inouye, on 03 June 2020 - 12:09 PM, said:

Current PSR values:

Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -2
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 251-400 does not move.
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +1

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 does not move.
Match Score: 101-250 goes up in PSR by +1
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +3
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +5

New PSR values:
Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -5
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -3
Match Score: 251-400 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 401+ does not move.

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 does not move.
Match Score: 101-250 goes up in PSR by +1
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +3
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +5

New PSR values SHOULD BE:
Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -2
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 251-400 does not move +0
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +1

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 101-250 does not move +0
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +1
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +2

Edit:
Additionally. An experiment was done recently by a well known good player who started a new account and it took Just over 600 matches for him to reach tier 1.

You have advised that you will be implementing the 20 match PSR accelerator as I had Suggested in my original proposal, thankyou.
But may I recommend that you up that to 100 matches. Else it will take way too long for most players to see any effect after the changes come in, and too long for players to spread out and settle into the correct tiers.

EDIT 2 : This Suggestion has been superseeded by a better one later in this thread.
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6336540

Edited by Kamikaze Viking, 06 June 2020 - 07:15 PM.

[Valdorel]

While i supported a reset and adjusting the PSR system, this is exactly what many of us DID NOT WANT.

This will boil PSR down to just W/L.

What everyone I've talked to actually asked for was something like this if you were going to take W/L into account:

Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -5
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -3
Match Score: 251-400 does not move.
Match Score: 401+ goes UP in PSR by +1

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 goes DOWN in PSR by -1
Match Score: 101-250 does not move.
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +3
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +5

But as far as I recall, most people just wanted W/L to be completely divorced from the equation.

Edited by Valdorel, 04 June 2020 - 07:54 PM.

[Kamikaze Viking]

Kill2Blit, on 04 June 2020 - 07:38 PM, said:

this isn't zero sum either. both systems assume that for every player in one match score bracket, there's another player in an opposite bracket to match. say for example everyone gets a score of 230. in your suggestion the psr sum of all players is -12. in paul's it is -24. the scores obviously won't be that uniform but try it out for some existing match end screens. players need to be compared to each other for zero sum. a blanket set of match score brackets does not work.

Cheers, sorry first thing in the morning. Ive edited that first line.

Im not sure, but I was under the impression that Zero Sum means the total sum of the wining side balances the total sum of the losing side, within any given match. Is there another way to look at it?

Hence
Win = -1 +0 +1 +2 = +1
Loss = -2 -1 +0 +1 = -1
Win + loss = +1 -1 = 0

Edited by Kamikaze Viking, 04 June 2020 - 08:07 PM.

[MrMadguy]

Knew, that winning PSR changes were biased. But that much? +3? +5? When max PSR drop is -2? Thx for reset. Now insta-death matches will be -5 for me, as they should.

Oh, man. *facepalm*

Edited by MrMadguy, 04 June 2020 - 08:24 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

Zero sum means if someone is tier 1, someone has to be tier 5. You can't call this zero sum.

From what I can gather, this will do the same thing as before, just do it more slowly.

Maybe matches won't get any better, but at least tier 1 or 2 status would be more valuable. It might actually be better to do nothing if full zero sum isnt the goal.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 04 June 2020 - 08:19 PM.

[Davegt27]

Wasted trip

the try hards dont want to see or play with the low tier low skill chitters

same thing they said in 2014-2015

when they always cried they had to carry matches

so we moved on to PSR/Tier system

now another reset and it turns out we get to change our tags (T1,T2,T3,T4) but we will still see the same people
in drops


oh well

[KitK]

I am taking away from this thread that there are two things that artificially produce mobility between tiers, one by PGI and one by players. PGI using the win/loss factor in its calculations and match scores, and players farming match scores and group wins. If we don't have those things will zero-sum stagnate? Just asking.

On the win/loss front I will embarrass myself. I record my stats after every session, so I have some solid anecdotal evidence with which to embarrass myself. But I think this lends toward explaining why the lousy win/loss aspects of match score and PSR are so frustrating.

Kit's W/L Ratios (mostly QP): Please don't bother telling me to learn to play, I know these are not stellar numbers.
2016: 0.94 (1840 matches)
2017: 0.97 (1274 matches)
2018: 0.86 (1182 matches)
2019: 0.74 (1485 matches)
2020: 0.79 (95 matches)

Frankly, I simply find it hard to randomly draw a winning team. I always get the naked drunk people on my team. And, you still don't know if I played well, average or poorly. All you can say for sure, is that I am well accustomed to losing. You will note my frustration by the number of matches played this year.

And teamwork in QP over that timeframe is fantasy. The few times fiction becomes fact it still fails as often as not. QP for a very, very long time has been about individual effort. Winning or losing is just luck of the draw manifested in the aggregate of individual efforts.

Still I hope all of this works out. I will give it a try.

[Airwolf]

This question has probably been answered somewhere else but I'm going to ask it anyway...

Exactly, how is Match Score currently calculated?

I ask this because in the past few events, there was the condition that you had to get a Match Score of 500 or better to fulfill a rewards goal. I had several matches (and I'm sure everyone else here has too) where you've worked your *** off the entire match and you thought that you did extremely well in that particular match, but still ended up with a Match Score of less than 500 and then later you're in a game where you figured that you didn't do as well as the match where you really worked your *** off but somehow ended up with a match score of above 500.

I've heard people talk about high damage numbers ... yeah, I get it ... but how do you account for spread damage vs pinpoint damage (e.g. where several pilots gang up on a single enemy mech and take it down by doing massive damage across the entire enemy mech or take it down by taking out the CT in a coordinated strike with a LOT less overall damage done to the enemy mech?)

If this new PSR calculation is going to be based on Match Score, then I want to know how that is calculated so I can figure out what I have to do as a pilot in order maximize my Match Score.

Before anyone says: "Do more damage" ... there are plenty of ways to be valuable to the team without doing high damage. For instance, you're in a light mech and manage to successfully squirrel 3 enemy mechs away from the rest or their teammates or even make a 100 ton assault lose his/her concentration as they're trying to deal with you ... and your team capitalizes on what you did and wins the game. Does this mean that your PSR should go down if you didn't do enough damage to get a good match score?

Which is worth more, team-contribution-wise, doing 250+ damage to, let's say a Dire Wolf and it's still alive?, or killing one, doing less than 100 damage cause you were able to core it out from behind?

Someone ... anyone ... please tell me exactly how Match Score is calculated ...

Thank you in advance.

Edited by Airwolf, 04 June 2020 - 09:01 PM.

[rascje]

'cmon devs, listen advices from these posts or system improvements will never be ok!

[Kamikaze Viking]

Kill2Blit, on 04 June 2020 - 08:23 PM, said:

real match data:

/snip

Aha. Talking to Ash and co on stream and I think its clicked for me.

A: the match score thresholds need to be tweaked. OR even better flexible within the context of the total score of that match.
I already had it in my mind that we need to address MS calculations but I wanted to leave out suggesting that until AFTER the PSR fix, so as to not Muddy the waters with multiple changes.

B:
But Just now I realised as people were chatting about this that there is already a massive match score increase based on the WIN.
The system is already sort of 'double dipping' and this may explain your real world examples that sum to -14.
Hence the Solution to this would seem to be to reduce the Match Score granted for winning, so that the total MS for each player reflects better on their skill within the team.

Thoughts?

Edit: This is derived from the old suggestion from Decency back in my ancient reddit thread.
Where total match score was irrelevant. Only used as a tool to calculate your relative position to your teammates. Hence it should cancel out the Win Bonus issue i just raised as that its equal to all teammates.


Edit 2: the relative number of players going up and down doesn't have to be this 3/3/3/3 division, eg it could be 2/4/4/2. But that's up for discussion, and ultimately its Paul's decision.

Edited by Kamikaze Viking, 06 June 2020 - 07:17 PM.

[crazytimes]

KitK, on 04 June 2020 - 08:25 PM, said:

Frankly, I simply find it hard to randomly draw a winning team. I always get the naked drunk people on my team. And, you still don't know if I played well, average or poorly. All you can say for sure, is that I am well accustomed to losing. You will note my frustration by the number of matches played this yeary.

Actually, the team draws you as an individual, and you actively contribute to a loss. I'm sure you're a nice guy, but you are objectively pretty bad at stompy robots. For example- you don't need to record your stats manually, it's in your profile and on Jarls.

Yes, someone may get a team of 11 potatoes, even a run of them. However over thousands of games, any trend up or down is on you as an individual. Accepting that, reflecting on your technique and adjusting is a lot more useful than blaming the rest of your team for 4177 games.

My weakness is survival rate. I over extend and die earlier than I should. I know this and am working on it. That's my fault, not the other 11.people on the team.

[Chatin The Skunk]

"Match Score: 401+ does not move."

Were you guys high when you came to this decision?

As stated 30% are stomps. My w/l is around 50% in pubs with randoms, so with this new method I'd either continuously lose rank or never gain rank unless I played with a team.... I am simply dumbfounded. Not logged in here in months and had to come here to say whiskey tango foxtrot.

That said I could care less on the tier reset... it has needed one for years, but I don't agree to the PSR changes unless you remove the win/loss requirement. PSR should be adjusted by performance values alone in my opinion for pubs.

[Snowhawk]

Ok, interesting changes.

But just 2 questions:

What about the tonnage? Will the improved matchmaker try to balance the tonnage between the teams?

As far I know pgi mentioned that the first 20 matches with the new matchmaker will use some kind of "boost" for a faster placement. Is this still correct?

Addendum:

I noticed that winning or loosing the match has an huge impact in this new psr-system. Imagine you were lazy and you did just 105 matchscore but your team did a good work and won the match... your psr will go up.
And then in the next match you did well and earned a matchscore of 405 but your team was potato and lost the match…. Nothing will happen with your psr.

I think Winning and losing the match is overweightet. Your personel Performance should have the greatest Impact... not the dependence of your Team.

Edited by Snowhawk, 05 June 2020 - 07:28 AM.

[Therax]

Kamikaze Viking, on 04 June 2020 - 08:43 PM, said:

For the most part I like this suggested system, as it is actually sum zero, however it still has one flaw in that it assumes that the actions that lead to an increased match score are the same actions that lead to a win. As an example, boating AMS can significantly increase a players match score, but I am unconvinced that it contributes to a win to the same degree that it boosts match score. Similarly there are game types that have alternate win conditions beyond killing mechs, such as conquest, where a light mech running around and capping the entire game will earn very little match score, and yet might be the deciding factor in a win. Making a player skill ranking system based off of match score could very well end up changing player behaviors over time that reduce the skill ranking systems accuracy.

If the objective of any one match is to win, then any and all actions that factor into a positive win/ loss ratio need to lead to an increase in a players skill ranking, and any and all actions that contribute to a loss need to lead to a decrease in a players skill ranking. The current match score system does not do a good enough job at accurately reflecting this, and any player ranking system based on match score will be flawed due to this.

If solo queue in its previous form still existed, I would be advocating for a pure win/ loss based ranking system, and allow the law of averages to sort out which player behaviors led to wins and losses, however with groups now included with solo players I am unsure how that sort of system would now work out.

[Cipher2012]

The match score is going to need an adjustment if you go down this road. It's not fair to the people who do top damage on a fail team to go down in rating because they cant get to the 400+ match score in 80% of the matches. The changes are not going to fix stupid and the Nascar mentality is not going to stop just because they start dropping in rating. Which means decent players are gonna get dragged down in rating because of fail teams. You cant base the skill of the few on the stupidity of the many. You will never see high match scores when fail teams get stomped. SO enjoy another 7 year grind to the top.

[jamesbombed00420]

so if you start with 29.91% stomps then get 33.99% stomps, wouldnt that be a 13% increase not 5% increase?

[Kamikaze Viking]

Therax, on 04 June 2020 - 09:55 PM, said:

however it still has one flaw in that it assumes that the actions that lead to an increased match score are the same actions that lead to a win.

I agree, but

Kamikaze Viking, on 04 June 2020 - 08:43 PM, said:

I already had it in my mind that we need to address MS calculations but I wanted to leave out suggesting that until AFTER the PSR fix, so as to not Muddy the waters with multiple changes.

[DeathlyEyes]

Please if matches cannot be made up of similar tiered players just make sure that teams have a similar number of tier 1 and 2 players on them.