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Psr Update And Changes - Jun 2020


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#141 Laser Kiwi

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 06:39 PM

View PostVixNix, on 04 June 2020 - 02:56 PM, said:



turn the wrong corner and you are dead - low match score
get left behind by nascar and you are dead - low match score

no control of the team you get put on.


no one has any motivation to do anything except go to the same place on the map and then rotate...

no balance on the teams

no balancing of equipment on the teams

constantly get stuck on long range maps in short range mechs

etc etc


You never had control of teams, but despite that everyone goes up before, now not as much

Left behind by nascar, well you weren't going up anyway

No balance on teams and equipment, oh well its usually 50/50

Which brings me to the point. Most people sort of have that w/l of 1 going on.

If you get 250+ you net 2 points per pair of games

Less than 250 you lose 2 points per pair of games.

If you get lower than 250 you will eventually get 250 as you go down

If you get more than 250 you might eventually go down to 250 as players get tougher.

The really good players, sorry boys, nothing we can do about that, you're just going to go up because you can legitimately positively bias all outcomes.

[Redacted].

Hey its not perfect, for true zero sum the above commentators are probably better ideas, but meh.

Edited by GM Patience, 05 June 2020 - 02:05 PM.


#142 NumberFive

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 06:40 PM

How about we go extremely simple on this then.

Review the allocation of match score for achieving mission and team outcomes, such as capping points, scouting, escorting the fatties, etc. Increase rewards for component destruction; if possible, rewarding weapon destruction would be an ideal addition. Reward team and mission outcomes more highly than sheer damage.

Assign player tiers based on ranking all players using the rolling average match scores of their most recent 20 matches. Update the 'tier' field in the database every day. It doesn't need to be exact.

There is no 'negative' scoring. There is no perceived punishment - no offensive little down-arrows on the match outcome screen. It's simply a matter of comparative ranking.

Players will quickly settle to a level which is about right for their skill level and will be easily able to climb out of a hole if they've been goofing around, levelling a mech or learning new game roles like learning to pilot a light.

Match make games to get an approximate equal mix of players of tiers in mechs of weight classes - equal numbers of same level players in same type of mechs would be ideal, but it obviously needs to be a bit fuzzy.

If you want to play high level competitive matches with your buddies, there's private queues for that. If you want to keep the existing player base playing, it's not going to be feasible to have one half playing boring meta and the other half playing dum-dum league. The top players will get bored and the bottom players will get frustrated.

Edited by NumberFive, 04 June 2020 - 06:44 PM.


#143 Akillius II

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 06:54 PM

Paul I'd like to suggest 5 match score levels for the New PSR values:

Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -5
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -3
Match Score: 251-400 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 401-600 does not move.
Match Score: 601+ goes up in PSR by +2

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-50 goes down in PSR by -2
Match Score: 51-100 does not move.
Match Score: 101-250 goes up in PSR by +1
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +3
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +5

The bolded font indicates the changes from what Paul proposed in OP.
1. To reward only the best players on a loosing team.
2. To not reward non-team players, nor the AFK on winning teams.

#144 Thebackson

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 06:55 PM

View PostThebackson, on 04 June 2020 - 02:30 PM, said:

I almost think a better way to calculate PSR on the matches would be to take the 24 players of the match, then rank them by their match score and give the following psr modification

1-3 get +5
4-6 get +3
7-10 get +1
11-14 get 0
15-18 get -1
19-21 get -3
22-24 get -5

This is also a net 0 PSR on the scores but rewards performance independent of whether you win or lose but also naturally favors the winning team since the winners are typically going to have a higher match score. At the same time it rewards a great player on a losing teaming and lowers the really bad players on a winning team.

The number of nights where I have had 8-12 loses in a row while at the same time pulling top 1-3 damage and match scores over 300 while still losing is staggering, under the proposed system I would do nothing but lose psr in those 8-12 matches.



Based on my previous post with a PSR rating system based off of pilot skill instead of who wins or losses I wanted to post an example scoring from a match.

Posted Image
https://imgur.com/a/A1WYHDS

You can see the winner has a more + than - yet the AFK NTG-H on the winning team ends up getting a -5 while 2 people on the losing side got a +5 due to being very effective even though their team loss. It is a net 0 system and pushes good player up to tier 1 and not just players who happen to be on the winning team.

From there you can adjust what gives a good match score separately if you want to reward certain types of play. IE reduce what AMS adds to match score and maybe give higher bonus to hit and run for an example.

Edited by Thebackson, 04 June 2020 - 07:15 PM.


#145 Poor-Life-Choices

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 07:12 PM

Ok, look if you are going to do this, at least make it a rolling number. i.e the last 500 matches or something. Don't punish someone forever because they took a while to learn the basics. If you don't do well in the first 20 matches you are screwed forever. This is also how you get to something like zero sum.

#146 Worm Seraphin

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 07:16 PM

I agree with many here that both new and old calculations rely too much on win/loss, which is completely random.
I know it is meant to promote team play, but you've been beating that dead horse for years now. If it hasn't helped up to this point, why keep doing it?
Also I think the idea of moving up or down isnt the best method. Players should move toward a target tier. eg, a score of 250 should move the player toward tier 3, score 100 toward tier 5, score 500+ toward tier 1. Im not sure the current practice of moving up or down is accomplishing that.

Edited by Worm Seraphin, 04 June 2020 - 07:21 PM.


#147 Kamikaze Viking

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 07:28 PM

This is not the right way to do zero sum.

View PostPaul Inouye, on 03 June 2020 - 12:09 PM, said:

Current PSR values:

Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -2
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 251-400 does not move.
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +1

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 does not move.
Match Score: 101-250 goes up in PSR by +1
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +3
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +5

New PSR values:
Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -5
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -3
Match Score: 251-400 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 401+ does not move.

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 does not move.
Match Score: 101-250 goes up in PSR by +1
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +3
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +5

New PSR values SHOULD BE:
Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -2
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 251-400 does not move +0
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +1

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 101-250 does not move +0
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +1
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +2

Edit:
Additionally. An experiment was done recently by a well known good player who started a new account and it took Just over 600 matches for him to reach tier 1.

You have advised that you will be implementing the 20 match PSR accelerator as I had Suggested in my original proposal, thankyou.
But may I recommend that you up that to 100 matches. Else it will take way too long for most players to see any effect after the changes come in, and too long for players to spread out and settle into the correct tiers.

EDIT 2 : This Suggestion has been superseeded by a better one later in this thread.
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6336540

Edited by Kamikaze Viking, 06 June 2020 - 07:15 PM.


#148 Valdorel

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 07:53 PM

While i supported a reset and adjusting the PSR system, this is exactly what many of us DID NOT WANT.

This will boil PSR down to just W/L.

What everyone I've talked to actually asked for was something like this if you were going to take W/L into account:

Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -5
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -3
Match Score: 251-400 does not move.
Match Score: 401+ goes UP in PSR by +1

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 goes DOWN in PSR by -1
Match Score: 101-250 does not move.
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +3
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +5

But as far as I recall, most people just wanted W/L to be completely divorced from the equation.

Edited by Valdorel, 04 June 2020 - 07:54 PM.


#149 Kamikaze Viking

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 08:04 PM

View PostKill2Blit, on 04 June 2020 - 07:38 PM, said:

this isn't zero sum either. both systems assume that for every player in one match score bracket, there's another player in an opposite bracket to match. say for example everyone gets a score of 230. in your suggestion the psr sum of all players is -12. in paul's it is -24. the scores obviously won't be that uniform but try it out for some existing match end screens. players need to be compared to each other for zero sum. a blanket set of match score brackets does not work.


Cheers, sorry first thing in the morning. Ive edited that first line.

Im not sure, but I was under the impression that Zero Sum means the total sum of the wining side balances the total sum of the losing side, within any given match. Is there another way to look at it?

Hence
Win = -1 +0 +1 +2 = +1
Loss = -2 -1 +0 +1 = -1
Win + loss = +1 -1 = 0

Edited by Kamikaze Viking, 04 June 2020 - 08:07 PM.


#150 MrMadguy

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 08:07 PM

Knew, that winning PSR changes were biased. But that much? +3? +5? When max PSR drop is -2? Thx for reset. Now insta-death matches will be -5 for me, as they should.

Oh, man. *facepalm*

Posted Image
Posted Image

Edited by MrMadguy, 04 June 2020 - 08:24 PM.


#151 Kin3ticX

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 08:17 PM

Zero sum means if someone is tier 1, someone has to be tier 5. You can't call this zero sum.

From what I can gather, this will do the same thing as before, just do it more slowly.

Maybe matches won't get any better, but at least tier 1 or 2 status would be more valuable. It might actually be better to do nothing if full zero sum isnt the goal.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 04 June 2020 - 08:19 PM.


#152 Davegt27

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 08:18 PM

Wasted trip

the try hards dont want to see or play with the low tier low skill chitters

same thing they said in 2014-2015

when they always cried they had to carry matches

so we moved on to PSR/Tier system

now another reset and it turns out we get to change our tags (T1,T2,T3,T4) but we will still see the same people
in drops


oh well

#153 KitK

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 08:25 PM

I am taking away from this thread that there are two things that artificially produce mobility between tiers, one by PGI and one by players. PGI using the win/loss factor in its calculations and match scores, and players farming match scores and group wins. If we don't have those things will zero-sum stagnate? Just asking.

On the win/loss front I will embarrass myself. I record my stats after every session, so I have some solid anecdotal evidence with which to embarrass myself. But I think this lends toward explaining why the lousy win/loss aspects of match score and PSR are so frustrating.

Kit's W/L Ratios (mostly QP): Please don't bother telling me to learn to play, I know these are not stellar numbers.
2016: 0.94 (1840 matches)
2017: 0.97 (1274 matches)
2018: 0.86 (1182 matches)
2019: 0.74 (1485 matches)
2020: 0.79 (95 matches)

Frankly, I simply find it hard to randomly draw a winning team. I always get the naked drunk people on my team. And, you still don't know if I played well, average or poorly. All you can say for sure, is that I am well accustomed to losing. You will note my frustration by the number of matches played this year.

And teamwork in QP over that timeframe is fantasy. The few times fiction becomes fact it still fails as often as not. QP for a very, very long time has been about individual effort. Winning or losing is just luck of the draw manifested in the aggregate of individual efforts.

Still I hope all of this works out. I will give it a try.

#154 Airwolf

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 08:25 PM

This question has probably been answered somewhere else but I'm going to ask it anyway...

Exactly, how is Match Score currently calculated?

I ask this because in the past few events, there was the condition that you had to get a Match Score of 500 or better to fulfill a rewards goal. I had several matches (and I'm sure everyone else here has too) where you've worked your *** off the entire match and you thought that you did extremely well in that particular match, but still ended up with a Match Score of less than 500 and then later you're in a game where you figured that you didn't do as well as the match where you really worked your *** off but somehow ended up with a match score of above 500.

I've heard people talk about high damage numbers ... yeah, I get it ... but how do you account for spread damage vs pinpoint damage (e.g. where several pilots gang up on a single enemy mech and take it down by doing massive damage across the entire enemy mech or take it down by taking out the CT in a coordinated strike with a LOT less overall damage done to the enemy mech?)

If this new PSR calculation is going to be based on Match Score, then I want to know how that is calculated so I can figure out what I have to do as a pilot in order maximize my Match Score.

Before anyone says: "Do more damage" ... there are plenty of ways to be valuable to the team without doing high damage. For instance, you're in a light mech and manage to successfully squirrel 3 enemy mechs away from the rest or their teammates or even make a 100 ton assault lose his/her concentration as they're trying to deal with you ... and your team capitalizes on what you did and wins the game. Does this mean that your PSR should go down if you didn't do enough damage to get a good match score?

Which is worth more, team-contribution-wise, doing 250+ damage to, let's say a Dire Wolf and it's still alive?, or killing one, doing less than 100 damage cause you were able to core it out from behind?

Someone ... anyone ... please tell me exactly how Match Score is calculated ...

Thank you in advance.

Edited by Airwolf, 04 June 2020 - 09:01 PM.


#155 rascje

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 08:26 PM

'cmon devs, listen advices from these posts or system improvements will never be ok!

#156 Kamikaze Viking

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 08:43 PM

View PostKill2Blit, on 04 June 2020 - 08:23 PM, said:


real match data:

/snip


Aha. Talking to Ash and co on stream and I think its clicked for me.

A: the match score thresholds need to be tweaked. OR even better flexible within the context of the total score of that match.
I already had it in my mind that we need to address MS calculations but I wanted to leave out suggesting that until AFTER the PSR fix, so as to not Muddy the waters with multiple changes.

B:
But Just now I realised as people were chatting about this that there is already a massive match score increase based on the WIN.
The system is already sort of 'double dipping' and this may explain your real world examples that sum to -14.
Hence the Solution to this would seem to be to reduce the Match Score granted for winning, so that the total MS for each player reflects better on their skill within the team.

Thoughts?

Edit: This is derived from the old suggestion from Decency back in my ancient reddit thread.
Where total match score was irrelevant. Only used as a tool to calculate your relative position to your teammates. Hence it should cancel out the Win Bonus issue i just raised as that its equal to all teammates.
Posted Image

Edit 2: the relative number of players going up and down doesn't have to be this 3/3/3/3 division, eg it could be 2/4/4/2. But that's up for discussion, and ultimately its Paul's decision.

Edited by Kamikaze Viking, 06 June 2020 - 07:17 PM.


#157 crazytimes

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 08:47 PM

View PostKitK, on 04 June 2020 - 08:25 PM, said:


Frankly, I simply find it hard to randomly draw a winning team. I always get the naked drunk people on my team. And, you still don't know if I played well, average or poorly. All you can say for sure, is that I am well accustomed to losing. You will note my frustration by the number of matches played this yeary.


Actually, the team draws you as an individual, and you actively contribute to a loss. I'm sure you're a nice guy, but you are objectively pretty bad at stompy robots. For example- you don't need to record your stats manually, it's in your profile and on Jarls.

Yes, someone may get a team of 11 potatoes, even a run of them. However over thousands of games, any trend up or down is on you as an individual. Accepting that, reflecting on your technique and adjusting is a lot more useful than blaming the rest of your team for 4177 games.

My weakness is survival rate. I over extend and die earlier than I should. I know this and am working on it. That's my fault, not the other 11.people on the team.

#158 Chatin The Skunk

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 09:49 PM

"Match Score: 401+ does not move."

Were you guys high when you came to this decision?

As stated 30% are stomps. My w/l is around 50% in pubs with randoms, so with this new method I'd either continuously lose rank or never gain rank unless I played with a team.... I am simply dumbfounded. Not logged in here in months and had to come here to say whiskey tango foxtrot.

That said I could care less on the tier reset... it has needed one for years, but I don't agree to the PSR changes unless you remove the win/loss requirement. PSR should be adjusted by performance values alone in my opinion for pubs.

#159 Snowhawk

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 09:55 PM

Ok, interesting changes.

But just 2 questions:

What about the tonnage? Will the improved matchmaker try to balance the tonnage between the teams?

As far I know pgi mentioned that the first 20 matches with the new matchmaker will use some kind of "boost" for a faster placement. Is this still correct?

Addendum:

I noticed that winning or loosing the match has an huge impact in this new psr-system. Imagine you were lazy and you did just 105 matchscore but your team did a good work and won the match... your psr will go up.
And then in the next match you did well and earned a matchscore of 405 but your team was potato and lost the match…. Nothing will happen with your psr.

I think Winning and losing the match is overweightet. Your personel Performance should have the greatest Impact... not the dependence of your Team.

Edited by Snowhawk, 05 June 2020 - 07:28 AM.


#160 Therax

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 09:55 PM

View PostKamikaze Viking, on 04 June 2020 - 08:43 PM, said:

Posted Image


For the most part I like this suggested system, as it is actually sum zero, however it still has one flaw in that it assumes that the actions that lead to an increased match score are the same actions that lead to a win. As an example, boating AMS can significantly increase a players match score, but I am unconvinced that it contributes to a win to the same degree that it boosts match score. Similarly there are game types that have alternate win conditions beyond killing mechs, such as conquest, where a light mech running around and capping the entire game will earn very little match score, and yet might be the deciding factor in a win. Making a player skill ranking system based off of match score could very well end up changing player behaviors over time that reduce the skill ranking systems accuracy.

If the objective of any one match is to win, then any and all actions that factor into a positive win/ loss ratio need to lead to an increase in a players skill ranking, and any and all actions that contribute to a loss need to lead to a decrease in a players skill ranking. The current match score system does not do a good enough job at accurately reflecting this, and any player ranking system based on match score will be flawed due to this.

If solo queue in its previous form still existed, I would be advocating for a pure win/ loss based ranking system, and allow the law of averages to sort out which player behaviors led to wins and losses, however with groups now included with solo players I am unsure how that sort of system would now work out.





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