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#101 General Solo

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 05:10 PM

View PostKosomok, on 24 June 2020 - 08:09 AM, said:


If the system worked and the population was large enough, the concerns you list would not have been an issue ITFP.

Guess what, even with the new system you are still going to have T1 and cadets in the same drops. There isn't enough population for it to be otherwise.

The problem isn't so much the MM system as it is the limited population.


That's because the developers decided to do something about MM at the end of the games minimally viable lifespan, basically trying to raise it from the dead, Instead of sorting MM in all queues on day 1.

Thats why the population is low, all those people who silently left due to game dissatisfaction due to MMing.
but wot eva.
Buy a mech pack or don't

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 25 June 2020 - 05:11 PM.


#102 General Solo

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 05:15 PM

View PostBelorion, on 24 June 2020 - 10:56 AM, said:


I have not seen anything from you that would suggest that this is true in actual matches. By the definition of your modeling this is true because you based the theoretical win on past WLR. This taints your data set, and makes it an unproven hypothesis.


You mean like when the queues were not mixed. Oh yeah w/l totally revalent because before queues were not mixed and now they ARE!

Maybe they used the stats from FW, thats the same as now, just no respawns.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 25 June 2020 - 05:18 PM.


#103 MEH0W

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 01:06 AM

View PostNesutizale, on 24 June 2020 - 07:52 AM, said:

@PGI

Can you please hide the Tier system? People realy seam to get the idea that its some ranking you need to work your way through.

PLEASE, PLEASE DO! Display leaderboard's CURRENT RANK in game instead and show tier only under web profile.

PRETTY PLEASE

#104 Kamikaze Viking

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 01:22 AM

View PostMEH0W, on 26 June 2020 - 01:06 AM, said:

Display leaderboard's CURRENT RANK in game instead
/snip


Sorted by Avg match Score NOT number of games grinded out this month.

even better AVG Match score multiplied by W/L (or something like that, maybe include the C variable)

Edited by Kamikaze Viking, 26 June 2020 - 01:24 AM.


#105 RRAMIREZ

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 02:50 AM

PSR (or Tier) AND rank/ladder are irrelevent (edit : Informztion to show) for a non competitive queue IMHO
I feel it's all the point : How is QP considered.
if Non competitive: Hide PSR info (which is MMR in fact in this case), even maybe don't publish leaderboard.
if Competitive: Show PSR, publish leaderboard and Yes, in this case climbbing the ladder should/can be a goal.

I feel we are in an inbetween

Edited by RRAMIREZ, 26 June 2020 - 05:12 AM.


#106 General Solo

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 03:03 AM

Groups pushing their agendas as usual. Leave the UI as is.

Leader boards in a mixed queue pff. Go ahead appease the ones that killed every queue they were in.

Group kensar in mixed queue. They so guid for the game if you want to shrink it.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 26 June 2020 - 03:05 AM.


#107 MadcatX

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 03:26 AM

View PostTamerlin, on 25 June 2020 - 04:54 PM, said:

Which the proposed system does


I see that now. I had simply seen the following and thought that it was representative of the system in general:

View PostPaul Inouye, on 23 June 2020 - 05:12 PM, said:

Running the top player on the losing team's numbers we get:
PSR Change = -1(5) - 20 + 20(0.6(229/183) + (1-0.6)(229/242)
= -2.4


Any word on group balancing, if there will be any changes to that as well. Honnestly I forget how it was implemented in the group queue, if it was just average of tier of all players in the group or you got pulled up to the highest tier.

Will MM attempt to match a team together that using an average PSR of all members?

#108 General Solo

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 04:52 AM

Isnt -2.4 losing PSR, for the top player on the losing team?
But of course
"Which the proposed system does" Yeah sure.

#109 RRAMIREZ

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 05:05 AM

View PostOZHomerOZ, on 26 June 2020 - 04:52 AM, said:

Isnt -2.4 losing PSR, for the top player on the losing team?
But of course
"Which the proposed system does" Yeah sure.

There's an error in the written text, the datasheet gives +6.1 for player 14 (Core 2C)
I think it has been stated in page 1 but not corrected on OP

edit:

View PostBrauer, on 23 June 2020 - 05:43 PM, said:

At a glance this looks like a positive change to me. Thank you for the update and for pursuing a change to PSR.

FYI there is an error in your breakdown of the system. The top performing player on the losing team is actually Player 14 and they will see a PSR increase of 6.1.


Edited by RRAMIREZ, 26 June 2020 - 05:07 AM.


#110 OneTeamPlayer

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 05:12 AM

View PostMEH0W, on 26 June 2020 - 01:06 AM, said:

PLEASE, PLEASE DO! Display leaderboard's CURRENT RANK in game instead and show tier only under web profile.

PRETTY PLEASE


We're already making the change, why hide the tier from everyone in the most logical place to show game information over the very rare complaint from a fraction of forum goers who represent a fraction of the population? In what world is "take useful in game information and remove it from game but place on an external site" good UI or game design? If anything we should be asking for more metrics to be represented in-game not less.

If we decide which metrics to show by bad feelings can we also cut the endgame matchscore, damage done, kills, win/loss, and basically any other metric that can be either high or low?

Let's just pop up a screen with a big smiley next to everyone and a "good job, sport"

Then we can all line up, shake hands, then drink capri-sun and eat orange slices.

Thanks in advance!

Please, for the love of razor toothed fish, don't pull this "participation trophy" garbage and cut the tier display so that "everyone feels like a winner".

MWO has to be rated at least PEGI 13, which is about the age when its expected that folk put on their big boy pants and accept that some people win, some lose, some are great players, and some are terrible.

This is coming directly from someone with incredibly mediocre stats by the way, so it's not some elitist screed, by a long shot.

Edited by OneTeamPlayer, 26 June 2020 - 05:16 AM.


#111 Jman5

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 05:30 AM

View PostOZHomerOZ, on 25 June 2020 - 03:39 PM, said:

Pre made meatshield sangwitch double front coming up.

When premades say push let them and steal their kills from the back.

More solo tips in future installments.


Playing solo in faction play taught me to never trust a premade to push when they say to push. Always move just a touch slower to make sure they're actually committing. Too many times I've seen them just trying to use the pugs as expendable meatshields before they go in.

#112 Cluster Fox

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 07:18 AM

So for those arguing MatchScore sorting will push groups up, here's some graphical representation of why it won't be as effective as WLR.

This is actual season 46 data pulled from Jarl's database. All 34581 players.
Posted Image

Jarl's list doesn't give information about groups, because that's not recorded. However Jarl's list does give a player's unit tag or lack thereof.

Assumption: Players without a tag are more likely to play solo and players with a unit tag are more likely to play in groups. Not 100% but it's the closest to accurate group information we can get. If anything, any deviation from this assumption will push both averages closer together.

I have processed the plot as if it was a normal distribution, but there's some skewing, especially for WLR. I'm keeping it simple and it's close enough to see the trends.

X axis is WLR
Global average is 1.017
Approx Solo(no tag) average is 0.998
Approx Group(w/tag) average is 1.342
Box depicted represents the standard deviation. Approx 67% of players lie within that box.

Y axis is avgMS
Global average is 218.4
Approx Solo(no tag) average is 215.8
Approx Group(w/tag) average is 263.4
Box depicted represents the standard deviation. Approx 67% of players lie within that box.

Approximately 45% of players lie within the combined XY box.

The red lines are the global average MS and global average WLR. Where they cross is the average player.
Both yellow marks show the average Solo(no tag) and average Group(w/tag) player.

Facts:
The correlation between Match Score and WLR is 0.656. Which I would call moderate.
Correlation between KDR and WLR is 0.697.
Correlation between KPM and WLR is 0.670.
There is no correlation between Mech weight class and WLR.
The correlation between Jarl's adjusted MS and WLR is weak at 0.420.

Analysis:
So we see that outliers tend to stagnate in Match score, but still skyrocket to the right on WLR. Even when the Matchscore is in the 150s, which would suggest "poor skills". However the stats show that those "poor skills" are more likely to win a game than some players in the 300s.

Interesting trend is that Group(w/ tag) has a more pronounced effect on WLR than on Matchscore (any surprises there?)
Also, we can see there are much more lower scoring players with high WLR than low WLR players with high score.

Stomps:
Number of stomps are directly related to how skilled players are at winning a game, not at scoring high.
To explain, we know about 35% of games are stomps. Regardless if you are on the giving or receiving end.
So 35% of losses are losses to stomps, 35% of wins are wins with stomps.
This is related to WLR directly here's how:

0.0 WLR:
35% stomp losses
0% stomp wins

0.5 WLR:
23.3% stomp losses
11.7% stomp wins

1.0 WLR:
17.5% stomp losses
17.5% stomp wins

2.0 WLR:
11.7% stomp losses
23% stomp wins

The total of stomps is always 35% of games. HOWEVER, WLR is a direct indication of how likely you will suffer a stomp, which decreases the more WLR goes up, and how likely you are to stomp people.

Once you team up similar WLR other than 1.0 together, you get an increased probability of causing/suffering a stomp. In reality, the numbers are probably not evenly distributed, and chance of stomps is probably lower around the 1.0 WLR mark and higher at the other ends, but linear approximation still gives the idea.

If you team up players, statistics are doing their weird thing. By teaming up the 2.0 WLR with the 0.5WLR vs 2 players with 1.0WLR, you get about an equal chance to see a stomp from either side. However by making teams with average 1.5 and 0.7 WLR each, you get a 43% chance of seeing a stomp.

Stomp chance is a function of team combined WLR. Matchscore is moderately correlated to stomps.

I might get around making correlations to Matchscore later, but that's less useful. I don't claim being a stats guru so please point it out if I made a mistake.

Have fun discussing stats!

Edited by Cluster Fox, 26 June 2020 - 02:00 PM.


#113 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 07:45 AM

ROFL Potato Corner.. love it!

#114 Nightbird

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 07:57 AM

View PostCluster Fox, on 26 June 2020 - 07:18 AM, said:

snip


Very nice work. If it wouldn't be too much work, could you do Season 45 MS versus Season 46 WLR, and Season 45 WLR against Season 46 WLR? The question is which of the two past data-points is better at predicting the future.

Could I also ask how you grabbed Jarl's database data? If you can share the last season or last 3 seasons to me, I can run a sim as well. Thanks!

Edited by Nightbird, 26 June 2020 - 10:15 AM.


#115 Nesutizale

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 08:34 AM

View PostOneTeamPlayer, on 26 June 2020 - 05:12 AM, said:


We're already making the change, why hide the tier from everyone in the most logical place to show game information over the very rare complaint from a fraction of forum goers who represent a fraction of the population? In what world is "take useful in game information and remove it from game but place on an external site" good UI or game design? If anything we should be asking for more metrics to be represented in-game not less.

and more......


You missed the point. Its not about "lets all shake hand and go to the happy place". The idea spawned from the fact that some people missunderstand what the Tier system will be in the future.
People think of it of a progress or status (**** messurement) thing instead of a matchmaking tool...and even then skip Tiers completly. Just show people the raw numbers, no need to to have the abstract Tiers.

So either PGI could try to come up with a way to explain what it is, faceing people that don't want to change their mind, missunderstand it or what not or you can simply hide the Tier and just have it on the website for those who realy want to see their Tier.

Also the usefullness of knowing ones Tier will deminish quite a lot when the system works. It might not go away completly but its mostly for competetive players who want to get good but then you can still find that information.

Maybe a compromise could be a new submenue that not only shows your Tier but also all the other stats like average damage, Matchscores etc. Something that would be actualy usefull for seeing where you need to improve then haveing just an abstract Tier.

#116 Nightbird

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 08:46 AM

View PostNesutizale, on 26 June 2020 - 08:34 AM, said:

You missed the point. Its not about "lets all shake hand and go to the happy place". The idea spawned from the fact that some people missunderstand what the Tier system will be in the future.
People think of it of a progress or status (**** messurement) thing instead of a matchmaking tool...and even then skip Tiers completly. Just show people the raw numbers, no need to to have the abstract Tiers.

So either PGI could try to come up with a way to explain what it is, faceing people that don't want to change their mind, missunderstand it or what not or you can simply hide the Tier and just have it on the website for those who realy want to see their Tier.

Also the usefullness of knowing ones Tier will deminish quite a lot when the system works. It might not go away completly but its mostly for competetive players who want to get good but then you can still find that information.

Maybe a compromise could be a new submenue that not only shows your Tier but also all the other stats like average damage, Matchscores etc. Something that would be actualy usefull for seeing where you need to improve then haveing just an abstract Tier.


You missed the point, the PSR value proposed has no beneficial match making purpose. It's only value is in showing the casuals where their place in the hierarchy is. Hiding it defeats the very purpose of its existence.

#117 RRAMIREZ

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 10:34 AM

View PostRRAMIREZ, on 26 June 2020 - 02:50 AM, said:

I feel it's all the point : How is QP considered. [competitive or not]

View PostNightbird, on 26 June 2020 - 08:46 AM, said:

It's only value is in showing the casuals where their place in the hierarchy is.

Ironical or not, I think this answers my question ^^

#118 Nearly Dead

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 11:51 AM

I like the end screen information now. Could care less about tier, I just want to know at the end of the game if I did my part.

In fact, I would love it if the end screen summary of players and damage etc could be sorted by MS, Kills, DMG etc so I wouldn't have to scan up and down the list counting how many people out scored me. (Or how close to the bottom I was in some matches.)

Looking forward to seeing if there is any effect on match quality as PSR shakes out; and if they make any other tweaks to MM in terms of mech classes, lance assignments etc. Might even buy a new mech to play with.

#119 General Solo

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 11:53 AM

View PostCluster Fox, on 26 June 2020 - 07:18 AM, said:


Jarl's list doesn't give information about groups



So all this spag bowl numbers soup is based on assumptions.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 26 June 2020 - 11:53 AM.


#120 Nesutizale

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 12:08 PM

View PostNearly Dead, on 26 June 2020 - 11:51 AM, said:

I like the end screen information now. Could care less about tier, I just want to know at the end of the game if I did my part.

In fact, I would love it if the end screen summary of players and damage etc could be sorted by MS, Kills, DMG etc so I wouldn't have to scan up and down the list counting how many people out scored me. (Or how close to the bottom I was in some matches.)

Looking forward to seeing if there is any effect on match quality as PSR shakes out; and if they make any other tweaks to MM in terms of mech classes, lance assignments etc. Might even buy a new mech to play with.


I would like to add that it would be nice if we could, like in World of Warship, decide when we don't want to look at the afterscore screen anymore or pull up the data after leaving instead of beeing kicked out after a certain time.

I think its more interesting and meaningfull to have such data for those who want to improve their play. Like beeing able to see that maybe you did a lot of damage but don't kill anyone. Most likely because you LRM-a-lot but it could also mean your aim is....less then stellar and you even spread with a laser or Gauss.





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