379 replies to this topic

[ESC 907]

VanguardianC64, on 30 June 2020 - 10:59 PM, said:

One other thing that I noticed after the patch is the Hunchback IIC-A -B & -C somehow lost all their quirks.

Pretty sure that was pre-existing.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

ESC 907, on 30 June 2020 - 11:15 PM, said:

Pretty sure that was pre-existing.

Yes, they didn't have any quirks to begin with.

[Vanguardian C64]

Sorry, Smurfy's does say that they have few quirks, so that must not be a new change.
The Hunchback IIC-B I got long ago has a long laundry list of quirks, that's why I was so surprised the new one had none.

Edited by VanguardianC64, 30 June 2020 - 11:38 PM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

screenshot? I'm 100% sure both don't have any quirks and never had.

[Biomechtric]

VanguardianC64, on 30 June 2020 - 11:25 PM, said:

The Hunchback IIC-B I got long ago still lists the quirks but in the store they are blank.
I just got a IIC-A a day or two ago and it's blank both in the store and in my Mech bay.

Do you have any skill points applied to the old one? Skill point stats are listed the same as quirks, same colour, same size, same place.

[General Solo]

Time to beta test match maker, Monitor
Tweak if results not as intended
Repeat till done

Stomp to your ability to accelerate the process
Just like a jab from a shot in the arm, Hopefully the medicine works eventually

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 30 June 2020 - 11:59 PM.

[FearThePaladin]

Is it possible to get an update that shows your PSR increase / decrease for a given match?

Thanks,
Paladin

[Ghoja]

Ok, so you've got the PSR thing sort of figured out... Now you just need to make MS actually show player skill and not just that they were able to do a ton of dmg.

More emphasis needs to be put on KMDD and Solo Kills vs just straight dmg.

Also, only 50% of LRM/ATM dmg indirect (fired without LOS) should count, or half of it should be credited to the mech(s) holding the target lock. It takes no skill what so ever to build a missile boat and fire at targets from hiding. A little more for ATMS than LRMS only because of firing pattern. There was a huge thing about "carrying" lesser players in the debate over this, at least in the beginning, and those boats are the only ones I see that are actually carried, get huge match scores, and just all in all rewarded for doing almost zero effort. With doing that comes an issue though, because all that dmg should count. Just not in a way to reflect PSR. Because lurm boats are a zero skill mech.

Also, if we have 46k players, there is almost zero reason we can't balance the teams for tonnage. Or at least make the MM sort the lances (and where they drop) grouping the high tonnage and low tonnage together. Not this crap where you have assaults, mediums and lights in ALL the lances. Failing that, at least make it so when team command is taken and the player order changed, it changes the drop position not just the lance you're in. Everyone nascars away from their assaults now because everyone starts all over, you rush to one lance and the another's assault is left to rot.

[Esoterix]

Matchmaking is still broken. Why my team is overrun 2/12 in 5 min. over and over again for like 10 matches in a row ? How can I win a few matches from time to time instead of loosing every single time ? I'm tier 5 in one account and tier 2 in an other, same thing for both. I'm realy loosing interest in the game...

[OneTeamPlayer]

Esoterix, on 01 July 2020 - 08:49 AM, said:

Matchmaking is still broken. Why my team is overrun 2/12 in 5 min. over and over again for like 10 matches in a row ? How can I win a few matches from time to time instead of loosing every single time ? I'm tier 5 in one account and tier 2 in an other, same thing for both. I'm realy loosing interest in the game...

If you have two accounts how did you manage to make tier 5 in one already while hitting tier 2 already on another? Did you sandbag on one account just to see what life at the bottom would be like?

[cl4sh]

Kudos to all who made this thing happen. Thanks PGI for the open process.

[kapusta11]

Paul Inouye, on 23 June 2020 - 05:12 PM, said:

In an ideal world, this graph is a bell curve graph. With full zero sum implementation, we might get there.

In an ideal world THIS is how it should be:



The better you are the more impact you have on the outcome of the game the more important it is to separate you from everyone else. Someone with K/D ratio of 2 or 3 is worth at least 2 players with K/D ration of 1. It makes no sense to separate bad players because the difference in their performance is negligible. The diffrence between 0.8 and 1.2 is not the same as between 1 and 3 or 2 and 4.

The problem is that tiers are overcrowded with people who don't belong in them. Matchmaker puts even number of T1 and T2 players on both sides but one side gets bows3r the other gets a nobody like me, both in T1. Guess who gets farmed in the resulting stomp.

Again, you can pick people randomly among the buttom 50% of the player base and the games will be more or less balanced because they have W/L, K/D ratios of 1 or less. It's when you add high skill players that things start to change drastically, especially when you're wrong in your accessment of "skill".

Edited by kapusta11, 01 July 2020 - 10:20 PM.

[morosis]

after playing yesterday, i think dropping in a premade group needs to be factored into the match score calculation.

i saw way too many elite players dropping in 4 man groups to do a bunch of seal clubbing on casuals, solo players, and cadets in their race back to tier 1.

as a result i experienced way, way, way too many stompy non competitive games in both directions (W/L), with the reason for the stomps almost always being that one team or the other had a really good pre-made 4 man group on it. by my notes, at one point 17 of 24 games were won or lost by a score of 12-6 or worse, with the majority of those being 12-4 or worse, and only 2 of them being in any way competitive.

the reason for all the bad games was not that a variety of skill levels were present, it was the fact that elite players were basically ganging up together to annihilate everyone in every game. no solo player stands a chance when a coordinated group of 4 elite players scout him and pick apart his mech from the dark corners of the map. nor it is a reflection of that solo pilots skill that this happened to him. nor is it a reflection on the premade group player's individual skill that he was able to do that damage or get that kill. and yet the current PSR system will penalize that solo player for having a bad match score and reward the premade group player for having a good match score. on top of the benefit of the W/L.

to be clear, i'm neither a good player nor a bad player. i play for fun. From where I sit, elite players already have an advantage over the rest of us in their individual skill, and when the game basically rewards them for teaming up, it gives the casual player no chance to have a decent game, and therefore gives PSR no data to properly evaluate either the solo player who is more often getting wrecked, or the pre-made group player who is consistently exploiting a huge unmeasured advantage to wreck people. i believe that PSR encouraging this behavior is bad for the community and the future of the game. unless the desire is to drive all the casuals out so that the same 100 elite pilots can just play against each other?

my proposal is that match score has a "premade group factor" built in. if you would have gotten a 500 match score for your performance in a game, i propose that it should be 450 (90%) if you dropped in a 2 man group, 400 (80%) if you dropped in a 3 man group, and even less for a 4 man group, maybe 60% or something quite extreme. regardless of the exact percentages, it should account for the advantage a player gets by having someone, or multiple people, looking out for them in a match. and if you drop in a group and lose, you should have an equivalent penalty % added. keep PSR zero sum, but account for groups.

Basically, if we want PSR to reflect what an individual pilot's skill level is, it needs to account for the fact that playing in a premade group gives a huge benefit to both match score and W/L ratio. seeing as these are the two biggest drivers of Tier rating and PSR, it only makes sense. I want the elite players out of my way so i can have fun again, but i want the elite players to be recognized as elite because of their individual skill, and i want my own rating to be representative of my individual skill. I did not see the system working yesterday, i saw it being exploited.

Edited by morosis, 01 July 2020 - 11:58 AM.

[Anomalocaris]

Trifakt, on 30 June 2020 - 08:59 PM, said:

TBH with over 500 games played last month, most of them solo, I dont really see that stomps are exlusivley occuring when groups are present (assuming most of the groups have the same clan tag). I was actually playing solo quick play since the game was released and I have the feeling that stomps always happend. I think they are more related to the dynamics on the battlefield and as long as not all 12 players are in the same discord there is always a risk that people dont care about the others. I always observe stomps for example when individual mistakes are made such as lights dying in the front or assaults runing directly into the enemy. And I truely believe that this will also happen within the new tier 1.
Regarding new players: the first time in many years I could actually convince one of my friends to start new with this game only because it is now possible to play together. And even he was dragged to tier1 games because of me we had plenty of fun. His K/D is still < 0.5 but his W/L is actually around 1.1.
I think now I would rather quit MWO than stop playing with my friend. Its a great experience after so many years of playing solo

Lol, well I quit MWO so I wouldn't have to play with you and your friend as a group. You f****d up solo queue, now live with the consequences of Paul screwing things up even worse.

[ghost1e]

morosis, on 01 July 2020 - 11:16 AM, said:

as a result i experienced way, way, way too many stompy non competitive games in both directions (W/L), with the reason for the stomps almost always being that one team or the other had a really good pre-made 4 man group on it. by my notes, at one point 17 of 24 games were won or lost by a score of 12-6 or worse, with the majority of those being 12-4 or worse, and only 2 of them being in any way competitive.

morosis, on 01 July 2020 - 11:16 AM, said:

the reason for all the bad games was not that a variety of skill levels were present, it was the fact that elite players were basically ganging up together to annihilate everyone in every game.

well, maybe the reason could also be the snowball effect, making 12-11 games pretty rare (I mostly only encounter them if a comp player plays casually and switches to tryhard when he's the last one left)

[morosis]

TheUltimateGhost, on 01 July 2020 - 12:02 PM, said:

well, maybe the reason could also be the snowball effect, making 12-11 games pretty rare (I mostly only encounter them if a comp player plays casually and switches to tryhard when he's the last one left)

I thought about that, but i've played consistently multiple hours/day since the group merge into solo queue and yesterday was dramatically different. I'd estimate that in the last month, i probably experienced on average 2 noncompetitive games or "stomps" per 10 games, sometimes in my favor sometimes not. Often driven by the presence of a premade group or exceptional player, but sometimes its just the snowball effect as you said.

The big difference yesterday was that it was happening in almost every game. If you had the elite group try-harding on your side, you win 12-4 or worse, and often have no fun and leave with your 100 match score for doing nothing because those guys went off and did their own thing and didn't involve you. and if you are on the opposite side from the elite group that's try-harding, you get headshot by a guy you never saw who has a dedicated scout, or stabbed in the back by 3 coordinated pirahnas, and you leave with your 100 match score for doing nothing. neither of those is good if people are really interested in this being a healthy community of players. the game has to be fun for everyone, not just 100 elite pilots that get to have fun at the expense of everyone else.

and lest we forget, if the matchmaker "worked" yesterday and you happened to get an elite group on both sides, then all the casual players got farmed and whichever elite group did a better job of doing so while preserving their armor got to win. again, the theme being that the current PSR system rewards match score and win rate as proxies for individual skill, and yet does not factor in groups. in the current system, the best players are encouraged to maximize match score and win rate by grouping up. this benefits the elite players at the expense of everyone else.

[D U N E]

People stomping should be in a higher tier, in group or not. Since the likely hood is, is they get high MS in a good team, they are beating their group - or beating their team in MS gain.

Higher tier means the MM should try to pair these people with less people on a lower tier, which means after this is all over and everyone has stabilised, people SHOULD get less stomp games.

Any argument people should be penalized for stomping, or that they are always in a group and should get MS penization, etc. Does not see the point of the MM. It's to create fairer games, not boost CBill rewards or deal extra damage, etc. Being tier 1 should give you tougher opponents, if you are upset against facing pilots like EMP or JGx, you shouldn't be tier 1.

[morosis]

D U N E, on 01 July 2020 - 12:26 PM, said:

People stomping should be in a higher tier, in group or not. Since the likely hood is, is they get high MS in a good team, they are beating their group - or beating their team in MS gain.

Higher tier means the MM should try to pair these people with less people on a lower tier, which means after this is all over and everyone has stabilised, people SHOULD get less stomp games.

Any argument people should be penalized for stomping, or that they are always in a group and should get MS penization, etc. Does not see the point of the MM. It's to create fairer games, not boost CBill rewards or deal extra damage, etc. Being tier 1 should give you tougher opponents, if you are upset against facing pilots like EMP or JGx, you shouldn't be tier 1.

to say it again, i dont care if i'm in tier 1 or tier 5 since i'm a casual player and here to have fun. however, i absolutely do want the matchmaker to be able to create good games for me, and for that it needs an accurate reflection of my individual skill. that is what PSR is supposed to be.

this is why what you wrote misses the point. groups need to be factored in if PSR is to be a metric that classifies my skill rating, as it is nominally. the fact that it can, and is, being exploited by elite groups to climb back to a perceived status tier is just the corollary to the fact that it penalizes me as a solo, casual player.

lets have an example:

if you gave me any mech and said go fight this group of 4 elite pilots with the same mech 1v4, i would lose. their psr goes up, mine goes down. is it a reflection of my skill that i got killed by 4 players with the same mech? partially but very little.

if you gave me any mech and said go fight this group of 4 pilots of my own skill level, with the same mech, 1v4, i would lose. their psr goes up, mine goes down. is it a reflection of my skill that i got killed by 4 players with the same mech? partially but very little.

if you gave me any mech and said go fight this group of 4 pilots slightly below my own skill level, with the same mech, 1v4, i would lose. their psr goes up, mine goes down. is it a reflection of my skill that i got killed by 4 players with the same mech? partially but very little.

if you dont see that as a problem when PSR is explicitly supposed to be a metric of individual pilot skill, then i don't know what to say.

this game is not fast twitch enough to let one player beat multiple enemy players focused on just him. grouping is a huge driver of match score and win loss and needs to be included in the PSR calculation if those are the metrics it uses to evaluate me and match make me for future games.

Edited by morosis, 01 July 2020 - 01:30 PM.

[spannerturner]

Haven't played since the change due to work, but fully expected the matches to be all over the place as soon as the reset happened. Remember, everyone is starting out at Tier 3, regardless of their actual skill. It's going to take some time and people playing for the system to work and sort them out into the appropriate Tiers. Right now MM sees a mess ton of Tier 3s (except for those who have already made movement by playing good or bad) and is grouping everyone together.

Fully expect at least the first month to not be the same experience as it was 2 or 4 or 6 months ago. You just have to give the system time to work. And the only way to do that is for people to play the game... (I know, I know, I'll start up again as soon as my workload/family life allows for it. Hopefully this weekend.)

[Tongo Rad]

So does everyone start at 3?