144 replies to this topic

[Cluster Fox]

Spare Knight, on 10 July 2020 - 06:09 AM, said:

The new PSR is functional. I find myself moving up and down. Mostly down. However, there are some tweaks that need to happen next.

If you're moving slowly down, please update us when you hit bottom of T5. Cause there is nothing stopping you.

[Magic Pain Glove]

I see some people are confusing issues brought by the the merger of solo and group queue with the new PSR update . Lets get few facts straight :

• Tonnage imbalance : Soup queue
  
• Stompy matches : Soup queue ( 5% btw)
  
• Inability to balance groups with solos and against other groups : Soup queue

New PSR is a bandaid for the above mentioned issues that were brought with the soup queue . And we can get this from PGI also talking about "reducing" the apparently "minimal increase" in stompyness . And funnily enough even a perfect PSR system wouldn't fix them because it simply doesnt impact the things that were previously f***d over with the merger . And you have people pushing for it to thank for that .


Problems with the new PSR :

• People are not yet seeded ( this is not a problem , its just the way things will be for some time since it just launched .New psr is faster at seeding than the previous one.The only thing that can be improved here is if we introduced some sort of accelerated PSR gain for initial #number of matches .
  
• Even fresh accounts start in T3 atm , where we do have a large concetration of T1 players who didnt play enough matches to move out of it yet.

[OneTeamPlayer]

Magic Pain Glove, on 10 July 2020 - 07:04 AM, said:

I see some people are confusing issues brought by the the merger of solo and group queue with the new PSR update . Lets get few facts straight :

• Tonnage imbalance : Soup queue
  
• Stompy matches : Soup queue ( 5% btw)
  
• Inability to balance groups with solos and against other groups : Soup queue

New PSR is a bandaid for the above mentioned issues that were brought with the soup queue . And we can get this from PGI also talking about "reducing" the apparently "minimal increase" in stompyness . And funnily enough even a perfect PSR system wouldn't fix them because it simply doesnt impact the things that were previously f***d over with the merger . And you have people pushing for it to thank for that .



Problems with the new PSR :

• People are not yet seeded ( this is not a problem , its just the way things will be for some time since it just launched .New psr is faster at seeding than the previous one.The only thing that can be improved here is if we introduced some sort of accelerated PSR gain for initial #number of matches .
  
• Even fresh accounts start in T3 atm , where we do have a large concetration of T1 players who didnt play enough matches to move out of it yet.

A developer stated stomps made up 30% of games and this was before the new PSR patch made tonnage imbalances worse somehow.

30% is around 1 out of every 3 games ending in a stomp and is a statistic that is so detrimental to any competitive system that it still needs to be addressed properly.

I've also come to the sinking conclusion that sorting will not matter if most players are average. From the chart they showed they specifically wanted most players to end up in T3 in a bell curve style arrangement.

Problem is, that if Cadets start out at T3 and excellent groups make T1 we still have a T1-T3 spread that means that not only will top tier players always face new players, but also average players as well. The distribution of T1 and T2 at numbers that PGI stated the new system would create would simply ensure that there simply weren't enough people in T1 or T2 in the first place to create their own games regularly even if the matchmaker attempted to do so- keep in mind that they stated they were struggling to break 1k weekdays and 1.5K weekends.

The more i look at it the less I see how this system was ever expected to work out under the parameters given.

I think the bottom line is that unless Group and solo are split again there's not going to be an improvement, and even if they are we still might see a massive set of problems that our outright unrepairable.

[Magic Pain Glove]

@oneteamplayer I agree with the rest of what you said but PSR cant make tonnage imbalances worse . The only way why an increase in tonnage imbalance could happen is if Paul puts more weight on Tier balancing in the Matchmaking triangle ( Tonnage , Tier , Speed ) .

Once again if the group q / solo q were never merged and the new PSR system was implemented you wouldn't see the tonnage imbalance . PSR adresses how people are seeded across tiers , but the matchmaker triangle decides on what to focus in it , no matter how the tier distribution looks like . Technically since most people are stuck in T3 matchmaker shouldn't have a problem building T3 matches and finding suitable tonnage ( and the gates will open for T1s if there are not enough of them ) .

But like I said inclusion of groups throws a wrench in the entire system with their ability to underton as well and so far we've seen that the matchmaker is simply not able to compensate for that . So no matter what we do to PSR , tonnage imbalances are gonna remain . EVEN if the triangle was shifted all the way towards the tonnage matchmaking .

EDIT: Removed duplicated comment

Edited by Magic Pain Glove, 10 July 2020 - 03:41 PM.

[latinisator]

Couldn't they just put up a tier reset every 365 days? I mean, we already have seasons on S7 - if anyone plays that. Oh well, to me and this time it feels like the end of MWO's lifespan is really nigh. Hoping that I am wrong, though. LLAP, MWO, LLAP!

[Nearly Dead]

PSR reset wasn't even a band aid, it was blowing smoke.

Going over what they said, what they did, and how it worked out I have to assume that solo queue was a liability somehow.

Maybe solo players didn't spend enough money compared to players in the group queue or something, but they decided to kill solo queue off and make it group queue with mandatory opt in for solo players.

[Cluster Fox]

Ok I'm done with the review and summary of my 2 suggestions.

Fixing PSR in two easy steps - cause all the math has been done for PGI.
https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

[ShadowSpirit]

I see that actually playing objectives still means absolutely nothing.

Took a spider, captured 4 out of the 5 points, protected the capture points, and ran AMS ...

Lost rating even with a victory.

Edited by ShadowSpirit, 11 July 2020 - 07:47 AM.

[martian]

ShadowSpirit, on 11 July 2020 - 07:46 AM, said:

I see that actually playing objectives still means absolutely nothing.
Took a spider, captured 4 out of the 5 points, protected the capture points, and ran AMS ...

Lost rating even with a victory.

Raw damage and number of kills are more important for your match score and thus for your PSR move than points for capturing bases.

[ShadowSpirit]

martian, on 11 July 2020 - 09:02 AM, said:

Raw damage and number of kills are more important for your match score and thus for your PSR move than points for capturing bases.

Killing isn't always the objective. Winning is? I guess that's the point. The system encourages spray and spam weapons (MRM, LRM, LBX, ULTRA) and discourages use of precision weapons. It also pushes things toward the heavier end of the mech spectrum.

Taking a light, playing the objective, winning the match, and still losing rating is punitive and just flat broken.

It doesn't matter. We've had years to figure this out yet here we are. Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the response.

Edited by ShadowSpirit, 11 July 2020 - 09:30 AM.

[crazytimes]

ShadowSpirit, on 11 July 2020 - 09:26 AM, said:

Killing isn't always the objective. Winning is? I guess that's the point. The system encourages spray and spam weapons (MRM, LRM, LBX, ULTRA) and discourages use of precision weapons. It also pushes things toward the heavier end of the mech spectrum.

Yet oddly, the really good players seem to use builds built around pinpoint damage and seem to do a lot of high MS winning with them. Not sure I would call UAC builds 'spray and spam' either.

Quote

Taking a light, playing the objective, winning the match, and still losing rating is punitive and just flat broken.

Yeah it's weird how a couple of lights rushing cap whilst their team dies doesn't give higher match rewards.

I saw 2 firestarters in a group 'win' a game recently. They did 0 damage each with MS under 100 each and definitely went down in PSR... but they capped for a truly amazing and valuable win. Hopefully they enjoy doing that with their tier 5 buddies, playing the objective for 'fun'.

[Big-G]

martian, on 11 July 2020 - 09:02 AM, said:

Raw damage and number of kills are more important for your match score and thus for your PSR move than points for capturing bases.

Effectively making MWO nothing more than a shooter, no tactical thought required.

crazytimes, on 11 July 2020 - 08:19 PM, said:

Yeah it's weird how a couple of lights rushing cap whilst their team dies doesn't give higher match rewards.

I saw 2 firestarters in a group 'win' a game recently. They did 0 damage each with MS under 100 each and definitely went down in PSR... but they capped for a truly amazing and valuable win. Hopefully they enjoy doing that with their tier 5 buddies, playing the objective for 'fun'.

If so, then why have any of those game modes?

Edited by Big-G, 11 July 2020 - 08:58 PM.

[crazytimes]

Big-G, on 11 July 2020 - 08:26 PM, said:

If so, then way have any of those game modes?

Hard to say. The majority of the incursion games I get are because I save up a cheeky x8 or x9 and drop it on them. Other than that, I only vote conquest if I am in a fast mech with streaks, or assault just so you don't have to chase down that last shadowcat and can just cap their base when it's 11:0 and he's hiding on a mountain somewhere.

Objectives in QP are just there to add flavour. FP is a different matter, but then it's a different kind of player in FP.

[ghost1e]

ShadowSpirit, on 11 July 2020 - 09:26 AM, said:

Killing isn't always the objective. Winning is? I guess that's the point. The system encourages spray and spam weapons (MRM, LRM, LBX, ULTRA) and discourages use of precision weapons. It also pushes things toward the heavier end of the mech spectrum.

ok. so first off, UACs aren't spray'n'pray, I can demonstrate in a lobby if you'd like
now, why am I already T1 while mainly playing MPL/PPC??? explain pls
and to the part of heavier weightclasses being favored, my highest dmg/matchscore yet was in a light

[ShadowSpirit]

TheUltimateGhost, on 12 July 2020 - 12:30 AM, said:

ok. so first off, UACs aren't spray'n'pray, I can demonstrate in a lobby if you'd like
now, why am I already T1 while mainly playing MPL/PPC??? explain pls
and to the part of heavier weightclasses being favored, my highest dmg/matchscore yet was in a light

Sure, I was wrong about UAC. It was a mistake to include those. My point being it is sometimes more beneficial to just strip armor off stuff than it is to be surgical because that ramps up damage numbers. I have no doubt you're an amazing pilot. That's what the system currently rewards - killing mechs. My point is that the system doesn't actually reward playing the objectives.

We have base and point capture modes that benefit 0 from this scoring system when strictly playing to win. That is on PGI and it seems like it won't change because it hasn't changed.

I think my gripe is that we're calling this a revamp+reset when the reality is they haven't changed anything because the underlying method is flawed.

If people playing the objective are bound to lose rating then they should just get rid of those modes because it contradicts what is they're trying to do with "more smash, more points."

Edited by ShadowSpirit, 12 July 2020 - 02:14 AM.

[crazytimes]

ShadowSpirit, on 12 July 2020 - 02:12 AM, said:

That's what the system currently rewards - killing mechs. My point is that the system doesn't actually reward playing the objectives.

We have base and point capture modes that benefit 0 from this scoring system when strictly playing to win. That is on PGI and it seems like it won't change because it hasn't changed.

I think my gripe is that we're calling this a revamp+reset when the reality is they haven't changed anything because the underlying method is flawed.

If people playing the objective are bound to lose rating then they should just get rid of those modes because it contradicts what is they're trying to do with "more smash, more points."

The objectives are there to give the potatoes a shiny thing to look at whilst everyone else is shooting mechs. It works.

The common theme for people who think PSR is inherently wrong and unfair is that they were tier 1 under the old system and are now stuck in 3 or dropping. Tell me I'm wrong.

[Gagis]

And most of all, objectives are there to force both teams to engage. You can't just camp back and wait for enemy team to expose themselves if they can win by capping conquest points.

[crazytimes]

Gagis, on 12 July 2020 - 03:42 AM, said:

And most of all, objectives are there to force both teams to engage. You can't just camp back and wait for enemy team to expose themselves if they can win by capping conquest points.

I'd like to see a bit more world of tanks style approach to capping. Get one guy to push the capper out of the circle, then take turns shooting him until he's TKed. You had to push them out because the problem was that bad they changed the rules so shooting a friendly on cap was turn purple first shot and autoban second. Out of the cap was still 5-6 shots to turn purple.

Objectives just don't factor into QP in MWO usually. Saw a team do a base rush on incursion recently and they were within 5% of getting it... but they had an assault "sniper" who "supported" from the "flank". It was an interesting match, I enjoyed it, but it's definitely not normal.

[ShadowSpirit]

crazytimes, on 12 July 2020 - 03:33 AM, said:

The objectives are there to give the potatoes a shiny thing to look at whilst everyone else is shooting mechs. It works.

The common theme for people who think PSR is inherently wrong and unfair is that they were tier 1 under the old system and are now stuck in 3 or dropping. Tell me I'm wrong.

It's this type of mentality that leads to all the stupid nascar. People don't play objectives. I would argue there would be less nascar if PGI actually rewarded playing objectives.

Edited by ShadowSpirit, 12 July 2020 - 04:44 AM.

[selfish shellfish]

Look at the list that calculates match score:


win - Base value for winning.
loss - Base value for losing.
teamkills - Loss for team killing.
spottingassist - Gain for spotting an enemy and that enemy takes damage. (Press R)
componentdestroyed - Gain for destroying a component on an enemy.
death - Loss for dying.
capturewin - Bonus gain for winning by capture.
captureassist - Gain for helping others capture a capture point by being in the capture radius.
suicide - Loss for suiciding.
saviorkill - Gain for helping a teammate under fire and you get the kill shot on his highest damaging opponent.
defensivekill - Gain for helping a teammate under fire and you get the kill shot on an opponent damaging them.
uavkill - Gain for any kills happening under a UAV you deployed.
uavlockeddmg - Gain for any damage done to a target that is under your UAV.
uavdetection - Gain for any new enemy detected by your UAV.
counterECM - Gain for countering enemy ECM.
counterECMLockedDmg - Gain for damage done to enemies under your counter ECM.
turretkill - Gain for killing a turret.
killblow - Gain for getting the killing blow on your enemy.
killassist - Gain for damage done to enemies upon kill but you didn't explicitly get the kill shot.
teamdmg - Loss for team damage done.
damagedone - Gain for damage done to enemies.
killmostdmg - Gain for getting the kill shot and you did the most damage to your enemy.
solokill - Gain for killing an enemy without the assistance of your teammates.
scouting - Gain for targeting enemies without damage being done.
flanking - Gain for being out of LoS to your enemy and behind enemy line.
capture - Gain for capturing a capture zone.
capturepulse - Gain for time you are capturing in a capture zone.
firstcapture - Gain for capturing the first capture zone in a match.
brawling - Gain for being in combat agaist multiple opponents.
tagdmg - Gain for any damage done to an enemy you have tagged.
tagkill - Gain for any kill done to an enemy you have tagged.
narckill - Gain for any kill done to an enemy you have narced.
hitandrun - Gain for attacking an enemy and escaping their LoS for an amount of time.
tagstealth - Gain for tagging an enemy behind enemies and not being targeted by them.
lanceformation - Gain for time spent near lancemates.
protectmedium - Gain for killing an enemy who is attacking a medium class teammate.
protectlight - Gain for killing an enemy who is attacking a light class teammate.
protectproximity - Gain for killing an enemy who is near any teammate.
powercell_pickup - Gain for picking up a power cell.
powercell_dropoff - Gain for dropping off a power cell.
incrusion_destruction - Gain for destroying objective objects in Incursion.
kill_powercell_carrier - Gain for killing a power cell carrier.
ams_missile_destroyed - Gain for missiles destroyed by your AMS system.


Then your match score is compared to all the other players in the match to determine which PSR value you are given.

Now if it was my game I would keep the old experience bar / Tier system in place but calculate the actual match making hidden in the background.

The hidden match maker would only consider the following:
- Kills + damage done + hit accuracy.
- Points from damage done would be adjusted by weapon system:
LRM/Streak = reduced score
Lasers/hit scan = normal score
Weapons requiring lead = extra score

This would calculate the actual lethality of individual players and try to match them together rather than water up the calculation with all the nonsense.

In summary:
match score => Cbills, XP, Tier progress
dmg,kills,accuracy => PSR

Edited by selfish shellfish, 12 July 2020 - 10:53 AM.