142 replies to this topic

[Michelle Branch]

But... its not hurting the game. I do my own thing frequently.

Heres when it works.

http://www.twitch.tv...2468?sr=a&t=12s

Plenty of games where doing my own thing works.

Plenty of games where i get a lance of people that kill me but still win regardless.

It's completely viable to do your own thing. Quit acting like everyone needs to pander to your specific design in solo que.

Edit - I'm positive there's hundreds of other examples of other people doing their own thing, and it works out wonderfully, or the very least, they do way better than the rest of the team by a very large margin.

Edited by Krasyespesky, 08 September 2020 - 11:26 PM.

[Kroete]

Dashen, on 08 September 2020 - 11:11 PM, said:

All the arguments i read on this forum are just sprung from whiny people who can't comprehend how a team game works and pretend that since they play alone they are not supposed to work togheter.

Never played something in schoolsports with pick up groups?
Never played basketball in the yard or soccer on a boltzplatz with pick up groups?
Never played a computergame with pick up groups?
Poor guy,
you missed half of your youth and socializing if you never experienced all the good and bad it can bring.


Despite the above,
more then 80% of the players still had fun in pick up groups, even if they cant understand how the game works.
Or maybe they understand it but you cant understand that there are more ways to play then you want or like?

Edited by Kroete, 09 September 2020 - 01:35 AM.

[Dashen]

Kroete, on 09 September 2020 - 01:21 AM, said:

Never played something in schoolsports with pick up groups?
Never played basketball in the yard or soccer on a boltzplatz with pick up groups?
Never played a computergame with pick up groups?
Poor guy,
you missed half of your youth and socializing if you never experienced all the good and bad it can bring.


Despite the above,
more then 80% of the players still had fun in pick up groups, even if they cant understand how the game works.
Or maybe they understand it but you cant understand that there are more ways to play then you want or like?

I'm sorry but you cannot do whatever you want in a team game and expect people to not call you out, are you delusional or what?

Plus i've won a bronze medal back in the old cs days almost 2 decades ago, so quit yet whining.

[Dashen]

Krasyespesky, on 08 September 2020 - 11:19 PM, said:

But... its not hurting the game. I do my own thing frequently.

Heres when it works.

http://www.twitch.tv...2468?sr=a&t=12s

Plenty of games where doing my own thing works.

Plenty of games where i get a lance of people that kill me but still win regardless.

It's completely viable to do your own thing. Quit acting like everyone needs to pander to your specific design in solo que.

Edit - I'm positive there's hundreds of other examples of other people doing their own thing, and it works out wonderfully, or the very least, they do way better than the rest of the team by a very large margin.

I'm not acting like people needs to pander to my speficic design, and it's not called solo queue, it's called quick play. I'm actually acting like people are whining about everything, blame pgi for everything they do and then they act like sociopaths in game expecting the rotato potato stomp to not happen.

Edit : To add that the stomp happens because people run around like clueless chickens, have 0 map awareness and completely ignore team mechanics, sure you get the good round but i wonder how many people throw the towel and will let you play with yourself.

Edited by Dashen, 09 September 2020 - 02:07 AM.

[Kroete]

Dashen, on 09 September 2020 - 01:50 AM, said:

I'm sorry but you cannot do whatever you want in a team game and expect people to not call you out, are you delusional or what?

Working together with random people to archiev an goal is needed in most jobs and p(ick)u(p)g(roups) in multiplayergames and the above used examples.

Sorry that i just used examples that most people would understand,
didnt know that i need to explain some obvious to you.

Dashen, on 09 September 2020 - 02:05 AM, said:

but i wonder how many people throw the towel and will let you play with yourself.

Less then 20%, if more then 80% prefered to play pugs?

Edited by Kroete, 09 September 2020 - 02:26 AM.

[Dashen]

Kroete, on 09 September 2020 - 02:17 AM, said:

Working together with random people to archiev an goal is needed in most jobs and multiplayergames.

Sorry that i just used examples that most people would understand,
didnt know that i need to explain some obvious to you.

Dude you're literally saying the same thing i'm saying....

[Michelle Branch]

Dashen, on 09 September 2020 - 02:05 AM, said:

I'm not acting like people needs to pander to my speficic design, and it's not called solo queue, it's called quick play. I'm actually acting like people are whining about everything, blame pgi for everything they do and then they act like sociopaths in game expecting the rotato potato stomp to not happen.

Edit : To add that the stomp happens because people run around like clueless chickens, have 0 map awareness and completely ignore team mechanics, sure you get the good round but i wonder how many people throw the towel and will let you play with yourself.

Solo que/quickplay. Was relatively the same thing for a few years. Tomatoe/Tomato

There's alot to blame PGI for, there really isn't anything deny that. Alot of head scratching decisions coupled with ignoring the majority community either for their own decisions because as Blizzard has so eloquently put it "We think we want it, but we don't." Or pandering to a specific group that hurts the majority as a whole. THERE. IS. ALOT. OF. STUFF. You can research most if it yourself and more than likely go "Wow, geewiz, these guys really don't give a crap."

I won't blame them for people losing interest in an old game. That's not their fault.

I will blame them when they make some dumb **** decision that nobody in the community wanted and blatantly ignores us. Yet. Again.

I won't get into the long history of PGI vs the Community for the 100000th time, you can find it anywhere. You can look up the fiasco of when they tried kick starting a game during the Star Citizen craze. You can look up when they introduced ghost heat despite mass protest. You can look up engine desync and see massive protest. There's a long list of grievances as to why most veterans hold PGI in absolute disgust, and why I don't even think of this game as part of the MechWarrior franchise. It's a slow motion point and click shooter.

[Dashen]

Krasyespesky, on 09 September 2020 - 02:30 AM, said:

Solo que/quickplay. Was relatively the same thing for a few years. Tomatoe/Tomato

There's alot to blame PGI for, there really isn't anything deny that. Alot of head scratching decisions coupled with ignoring the majority community either for their own decisions because as Blizzard has so eloquently put it "We think we want it, but we don't." Or pandering to a specific group that hurts the majority as a whole. THERE. IS. ALOT. OF. STUFF. You can research most if it yourself and more than likely go "Wow, geewiz, these guys really don't give a crap."

I won't blame them for people losing interest in an old game. That's not their fault.

I will blame them when they make some dumb **** decision that nobody in the community wanted and blatantly ignores us. Yet. Again.

I won't get into the long history of PGI vs the Community for the 100000th time, you can find it anywhere. You can look up the fiasco of when they tried kick starting a game during the Star Citizen craze. You can look up when they introduced ghost heat despite mass protest. You can look up engine desync and see massive protest. There's a long list of grievances as to why most veterans hold PGI in absolute disgust, and why I don't even think of this game as part of the MechWarrior franchise. It's a slow motion point and click shooter.

Been here for 7 years, i've never complained about ghost heat, i actually find it interesting, i would have loved to see powerdraw implemented, engine decoupling was a not so succesful decision and i can get behind the complaint but it did not hinder my enjoyment of the game. The map redesign was also something that was done in a hurry, that didn't detract from my enjoyment either.

I do not feel entitled to make developers do stuff for me because i command it, or because my clan unit suddenly cannot vomit 18 bazillion lasers at the same time.

In fact the level of ego of this vocal "comunity" is beyond godly.

This is not our game, we do not have the right nor the entitlement to tell developers how to develop their games, hell i'm a game designer myself and i do not voice my opinion on what pgi does because it's their product and they have their own vision.

The people who complain about pgi's decisions are those who are actually losing something when they play. Perhaps you were using that kdk-3 with 4 uac10 with the potential to deliver 80 damage in a single double tap without overheating. Perhaps people who were complaining about the ecm were those lrm80.

That is why you don't have to listen to your playerbase complaints but detach and try to see the pros and the cons.

[Michelle Branch]

Dashen, on 09 September 2020 - 02:50 AM, said:

This is not our game, we do not have the right nor the entitlement to tell developers how to develop their games, hell i'm a game designer myself and i do not voice my opinion on what pgi does because it's their product and they have their own vision.

This type of personality is completely detrimental to any business model let a lone a game that it baffles me that anyone actually believes that nonsense.

You as a game designer should understand that you probably should listen to the community. It's not just the developers game, but it's everyone's. This is the same exact reasoning why I have such an issue with a lot of movies that are so completely brain dead but I'm told to shutup and enjoy the pretty lights. Yeah, no. Can't do.

Remember when EA introduced loot boxes into every game they made? And then made it P2W? And then made it to where it was such an absolute grind, that the game no longer becomes a game but a chore to play? That's Battlefront 2. And guess who was vocal about it? The community.

It's up to the consumer to voice constructive criticism, and to basically vote with their wallet. If you don't like a game, don't buy it, or invest into it. However, if it's a beloved franchise that you actually have invested a large portion of your life into, then be vocal. It's one thing to take a single individuals idealistic version of whatever he dreamed up, but it's entirely another thing to take an established franchise and turn it upside down. You're going to receive backlash for it. And if you tell people to just "suck it up, it's not your game," well my friend, you A. Failed and probably lost alot of your business (which you kind of need to uh...fund other games, ya know?), and B. You'll get a resounding "F*ck you" from the majority/target audience.

TL:DR We can say "**** you, make your game less ****." That's part of criticism.

So yeah, we can tell them how to develop a game. If you're telling me it takes me $500,000 for a fund raiser to achieve space flight...In a space simulator, I'm going to tell you you're an idiot and should probably rethink on how you want to develop your game.

If you tell me that Mech's get stuck on a tiny ******* rock and get stomp over it, then yeah, I'll probably tell you you're garbo and should rethink on how you develop a game.

If your game consists of numerous invisible walls that not even Stephen Hawking could memorize and you haven't fixed them in 8 years, then yeah, I'll probably tell you how to develop a game.

This community isn't really ego driven. Sure you have mech dads that are completely awful at the game and will blame their wife for making them do 20 damage in a match, or you have guys that will say lasers are cheap, so on and so forth, but then you still have sane minded people who do look at everything as a whole, and realize what a god damn crap shoot it's been.

Edit - To further destroy your logic here, I'll do a comparison as I love to do. Lets say I'm a mechanic for Honda but I drive a Kia.

I hate Kias as much as I hate Hondas. But I didn't design the car so it's what right do I have to say about the design? Nevermind that the alternator is placed on the bottom of the engine, or that the radiator is placed next to the dash rather than the front of the engine. Or that the battery is located under the drivers seat of **** all places. I'm not allowed to be critical of ****** design because I'm a mechanic? Or how about this, if I wasn't a mechanic, and therefor, I fail to realize the actual genius behind such design?

It's stupid and asinine and to think otherwise is an utter failure.

Be critical to a game. It helps more if you are rather than just remaining silent and going "WELL GEE WIZ MY HOUSE IS ON FIRE BUT I'M NOT A FIREFIGHTER SO I GUESS THIS IS OKAY!"

Edited by Krasyespesky, 09 September 2020 - 03:19 AM.

[Dashen]

Krasyespesky, on 09 September 2020 - 03:08 AM, said:

This type of personality is completely detrimental to any business model let a lone a game that it baffles me that anyone actually believes that nonsense.

You as a game designer should understand that you probably should listen to the community. It's not just the developers game, but it's everyone's. This is the same exact reasoning why I have such an issue with a lot of movies that are so completely brain dead but I'm told to shutup and enjoy the pretty lights. Yeah, no. Can't do.

Remember when EA introduced loot boxes into every game they made? And then made it P2W? And then made it to where it was such an absolute grind, that the game no longer becomes a game but a chore to play? That's Battlefront 2. And guess who was vocal about it? The community.

It's up to the consumer to voice constructive criticism, and to basically vote with their wallet. If you don't like a game, don't buy it, or invest into it. However, if it's a beloved franchise that you actually have invested a large portion of your life into, then be vocal. It's one thing to take a single individuals idealistic version of whatever he dreamed up, but it's entirely another thing to take an established franchise and turn it upside down. You're going to receive backlash for it. And if you tell people to just "suck it up, it's not your game," well my friend, you A. Failed and probably lost alot of your business (which you kind of need to uh...fund other games, ya know?), and B. You'll get a resounding "F*ck you" from the majority/target audience.

TL:DR We can say "**** you, make your game less ****." That's part of criticism.

So yeah, we can tell them how to develop a game. If you're telling me it takes me $500,000 for a fund raiser to achieve space flight...In a space simulator, I'm going to tell you you're an idiot and should probably rethink on how you want to develop your game.

If you tell me that Mech's get stuck on a tiny ******* rock and get stomp over it, then yeah, I'll probably tell you you're garbo and should rethink on how you develop a game.

If your game consists of numerous invisible walls that not even Stephen Hawking could memorize and you haven't fixed them in 8 years, then yeah, I'll probably tell you how to develop a game.

This community isn't really ego driven. Sure you have mech dads that are completely awful at the game and will blame their wife for making them do 20 damage in a match, or you have guys that will say lasers are cheap, so on and so forth, but then you still have sane minded people who do look at everything as a whole, and realize what a god damn crap shoot it's been.

Edit - To further destroy your logic here, I'll do a comparison as I love to do. Lets say I'm a mechanic for Honda but I drive a Kia.

I hate Kias as much as I hate Hondas. But I didn't design the car so it's what right do I have to say about the design? Nevermind that the alternator is placed on the bottom of the engine, or that the radiator is placed next to the dash rather than the front of the engine. Or that the battery is located under the drivers seat of **** all places. I'm not allowed to be critical of ****** design because I'm a mechanic? Or how about this, if I wasn't a mechanic, and therefor, I fail to realize the actual genius behind such design?

It's stupid and asinine and to think otherwise is an utter failure.

Be critical to a game. It helps more if you are rather than just remaining silent and going "WELL GEE WIZ MY HOUSE IS ON FIRE BUT I'M NOT A FIREFIGHTER SO I GUESS THIS IS OKAY!"

You can criticize, you cannot be entitled to tell Klas or Honda how to make a certain vehicle, they can either listen to your criticism or not, consider it viable or untrue or biased.

If they don't listen you can either chose to buy their car or skip it/sell it.

It is not their fault if you drive it like an ***.

[Michelle Branch]

Just wow...I couldn't think of a worst response but...you've done it. I rest my case at this point.

Edited by Krasyespesky, 09 September 2020 - 03:49 AM.

[Dashen]

Krasyespesky, on 09 September 2020 - 03:48 AM, said:

Just wow...I couldn't think of a worst response but...you've done it. I rest my case at this point.

Suit yourself.

[Michelle Branch]

Just make sure you PM me PGI's salary, I'll be happy to change my tune.

[Lykaon]

Nightbird, on 07 September 2020 - 09:56 PM, said:

Most people that say push in public games proceed to not push and instead use their teammates as fodder to get more damage and kills in. It's always good practice to look for the one that calls push and see what they are doing, you'd be surprised.

A lack of trust that becomes a lack of cooperation. And that is why groups are more effective. A significant portion of solos will assume as you have that an order given has an alterior motive rather than simply being the right thing to do at the right time.

Ever wonder why that is? PGI never fostered a community that learned how to cooperate and trust their teams. Instead PGI decided that rather than encourage players to play the game in an effective manner they would instead support players wishing to not cooperate effectively. We got split queues,no effective means for player units to recruit,poor in game communications tools, and very late addition to needed in match communication tools like in game comms.

When you see a player who calls for a push but doesn't initiate the push themselves it's probably not because they intend to use their team as fodder. It's probably because they want to wait and see if anyone actually initiates the push so that the player who gave the order doesn't get hung out to dry by pushing alone. Lack of trust is again the reason. Team members won't follow orders out of distrust and players who would other wise lead do not trust that their orders will be completed.

It's a formula for failure pure and simple. And rather than adapt to play in a more successful way the soloists of MWo chose instead to demand to get a separate queue for the distrustful to be allowed to play as solo portions of a disorganized team.

The Solo mentality is very selfish on average and suspicious of their own team mates in general. Because PGI never built a game to teach players how to be members of teams. Any of the team building done in MWo was done by the initiative of the players and frequently in spite of the game supplied by PGI.

Conversely Group players tend to assume that the solos or "pugs" are simply unreliable rabble not to be relied upon for completing any plan towards victory. Many group players don;t hold PUGs in high regard because to them their lack of trust looks like a lack of skill.


I will say it again. If the game was meant for soloing then soloing would be as viable as grouping. But it isn't because grouping is objectively better at gaining positive results. PGI never altered the game mechanics to support solo play as being equal or objectively better so we can assume MWO was from day one designed for teams who used teamwork to succeed.

It is what it is.The game plays as it plays. We have mixed queues so we can complain and get salty or learn to adapt to how the game actually plays and not how we wished it would.

This means stop being divisive along solo/group lines and instead play as red vs blue as teams.

Groups need to actually talk to their solo team mates and not sit on their own private comms the whole time.

Solos need to learn how to trust their team the way group members trust each other.

Everyone needs to learn how to cooperate and communicate more.

[Nightbird]

Lykaon, on 09 September 2020 - 10:25 AM, said:

In other words, "everyone should play the game the way I want them to play it"

Good luck with that...

[Lykaon]

OZHomerOZ, on 07 September 2020 - 10:11 PM, said:

Pretty sure that was groups seal clubbing and as you said groups exclude, that fostered a US vs THEM
In fact
Im certain, FW was the only place groups and solo's mingled apart from the very early days of one queue for all.

Go back and read our long and storied past on these forums.

The majority of the complaining was in the form of players failing to adapt to the game they were given and demanding that the players who did succeed not be allowed to compete against them.

It was the solo players who were pushing for division.Most of the early group players were Unit members. The Units wanted recruits and those players they were seeking were the solos who did not have a unit.

The Units wanted to include the PUGs in their potential prosperity but the salty solos rejected the invitation and formated reams of excuses as to why they can't join a group/unit.

PUGs were invited the Solos rejected and the Units learned to ignore them. And this is where the failure of MWo began.

Make no mistake it was not groups wanting to seal club solos it was UNITS wanting the PUGS and the Solos rejecting the units and PGI pandering to the solos at expense of the Units that created the divide.

Once the queues were seperated the solos had their sandbox and the groups had theirs but the player units lost their recruitment grounds. The solo players were not exposed to player unit groups in the quick play queue anymore. The new solo player was issolated from Units and this caused a trickle down effect that poisoned the growth of MWo.

Player units should have been the backbone of community continuity and the driving force behind a robust and well realized community warfare system. Instead the way the queue was divided resulted in slowly bleeding the player units to death and the issolation of new players from effective support structures in the form of the units.

So what happened to us?

By the time we had seperated queues the Groups were already sick of being villainized by PUGs as malicious seal clubbers that the US vs THEM was cemented on both sides.

Initially the groups of MWo did not exclude.The player units honestly wanted to grow and prosper and include players. The exclusion resulted from the solo salt being heaped upon groupers.Players will only accept so much crap from others before they simply ignore those players.

The New solos were not exposed to Unit players and only had the other solos to rely upon for support and education and honestly the new players were taught Groups are evil and little else of use on how to actually play MWo successfully.

Go on and read the past I am not lying about the history.

[Lykaon]

Nightbird, on 09 September 2020 - 10:37 AM, said:

In other words, "everyone should play the game the way I want them to play it"

Good luck with that...

In your words maybe.

You (and many others) need to understand that this game is as it is it plays as it plays. We have mixed queues and that is fact. The player population will NOT support divisions any longer. Our choices are likely this (mixed queues) or nothing.

If the groups leave the population dwindles if the solos leave the population dwindles so what options do players who want to play MWo have?

We need to learn how to play TOGETHER .

The irony of you saying "everyone should play the game the way I want them to play" is very telling.

I didn't make this game I didn't choose for groups to play more effectively than soloing. I simply realize that it is what it is and more cooperation will net results.

Thus group win more is a truth. As is play inclusively with ALL your team members (groups and solos) will win more.

You don't have to join groups to expect to win but you should expect to play as a team and coordinate and communicate. You should by now expect that the team with more coordination deserves the victory more.

I have been saying that we ALL need to learn to play the game as it is and it seems like you want to have the game played the way you wished it was played.

MWo is what it is now it's not going to radically change at this point. We adapt and keep playing or we don't.

The thing is adapting will likely net positive results while not will likely mean more time on the forums being salty.

Edited by Lykaon, 09 September 2020 - 11:08 AM.

[Nightbird]

Lykaon, on 09 September 2020 - 11:02 AM, said:

I adjust the way I play every match based on what other people are doing, be it enemies or allies. I don't ask either to play a certain way and I certainly don't blame what others do for my own performance.

[Lykaon]

VonBruinwald, on 07 September 2020 - 11:38 PM, said:

You blame PGI for the us vs. them mentality but your word-play boils down to "shut-up, git-gud, group-up". That's not PGI talking, that's you.

A better way to spin this whole situation though:

Some of us like Solaris. If we were to petition for PGI to abandon soup queue completely so the only two modes are FW and Solaris and they followed through how would you feel. All those casual groups who don't want to fight 12-mans would be crushed and your response is "shut-up and 12-man, it's the best way to play".

Nevermind, this game is marketed as MWO:Solaris-7. Let's abandon FW while we're at it.

Actually what I'm saying is the game is as it is it plays as it plays and wishing it wasn't what it is and didn't play as it plays at this LATE stage is essentially a giant complainfest that does NOT improve anyone's game play and does NOTHING to increase a player's chances of success.

If PGI did as you said and did remove the quickplay queue from the game and players were still complaining about the game not being what they wanted I would still be saying adapt to the game that is and not cry about what isn't.

I'm not saying "shut up git gud" That you think that was my point speaks volumes about the issues this community has.

You don't want to hear that maybe just maybe there is a more effective way to play MWO and the groups were doing it the whole time.And maybe just maybe if solos want to succeed they may want to try cooperation as well.

What I am advocating is ALL players on a team learn to play as a team. Play inclusively and drop the old B.S. of solo vs group.

This means Groups need to stop hiding away on their third party VOIP channels and use the public comms.

This means Solos need to trust in their team mates more and support players who opt to take the lead.

This means groups need to see their solo team mates as TEAM members and not a side effect of the matchmaker.

This means solos should probably try grouping because I can assure the vast majority of grouped players have soloed.

And everyone needs to step up and take responsibility for their part in a TEAM. Everyone needs to grasp that the team that played better as a team should deserve to win.


If PGI were to remove the ability to group entirely I would still be correct in assuming cooperation wins games. And I would still tell players to play the game we have in the most successful manner if they want wins they need to cooperate as a team.


PGI by dividing the community with mechanics like queue splitting PGI did foster division in the community.

Let's think about when the split happened.

Did we have in game comms?
Did we have a PSR system?
Did we have player tiers?
Did we have group weight limits?

No we didn't and instead of fixing the queue to work as a unified community PGI opted for splitting up the queue.

Nobody gets to play the game they want to and succeed unless they also play a game in a successful manner.

Omaha, on 09 September 2020 - 12:38 PM, said:

The "is as it is" thing, sorry but I find that a bunch of crap. If it was as it was, then why do all the changes, balancing attempts?
Gauss changes, etc. It is was it is right?

That was then. What we have now is a game on life support we will not see many if any sweeping changes it is what it is adapt to what is or complain about what could have been.

[RAM]

Bigbacon, on 16 July 2020 - 05:52 AM, said:

I like this game, been playing for years now but recombining the queues has absolutely killed the MM and the game is so lopsided now it isn't fun.

Splitting the Queue initially is what killed the game.


RAM
ELH