142 replies to this topic

[Scout Derek]

OZHomerOZ, on 29 August 2020 - 10:01 PM, said:

Funny how the queue wait times are not getting shorter
Instead getting longer
As predicted by a few

Definition of madness
Doing the same thing over and over, when the result is the same, a bad result.

And this is why I invest time in other games more often these days. A friend gifted me Space Engineers, been playing the hell out of it since.

[MTier Slayed Up]

Willard Phule, on 29 August 2020 - 10:24 AM, said:

Because it's not your decision in the first place? Nobody liked Paul's changes to FP and demanded it be rolled back only to be told it can't happen. Same thing here. Paul made the decision to let those that still spend real money on the game farm those who don't. It simply is. Complaining about it won't change anything.

The QP you remembered is gone. Never coming back. Accept it.

But, there are places you can go where you don't get rolled by a group now. Faction Play is nothing but a bunch of solos queuing up now. The groups are in QP. Granted, it's still the broken design Paul gave us, but at least there aren't groups there harvesting solos anymore.

1. I can critique a bad change.
2. So after x amount of years of this game being out, you're now insiuating this a P2W game? Here, I got something for you...

Said every bad player ever though. Solved that mystery.

3. Nope, again, won't accept it. Part of the critique. Same reason why I complain about Rey being a Mary Sue in those ****** SW sequels. It's in there, but it's garbage. Please retcon.
4. FP is the last place I want to go to if I want to solo, are you kidding me? Imagine being stuck with a bunch of tier 3's/4's that have about as much common sense as a wooden plank. Instead of dealing it with for what, 3 minutes? I have to spend a half hour? **** off. Lol.

Listen, if you want more people to play FP, just say it. Don't try to sell us this goofball notion that we have to play your game mode for arbitrary reasons you spaz.

Edit- Don't get me started on the wait times for FP...People complain about QP but I feel like I'm playing a lobby simulator if I decide to play a FP match.

Edited by mynameis T R A S H, 30 August 2020 - 07:10 PM.

[Willard Phule]

mynameis T R A S H, on 30 August 2020 - 07:08 PM, said:

1. I can critique a bad change.
2. So after x amount of years of this game being out, you're now insiuating this a P2W game? Here, I got something for you...

Said every bad player ever though. Solved that mystery.

3. Nope, again, won't accept it. Part of the critique. Same reason why I complain about Rey being a Mary Sue in those ****** SW sequels. It's in there, but it's garbage. Please retcon.
4. FP is the last place I want to go to if I want to solo, are you kidding me? Imagine being stuck with a bunch of tier 3's/4's that have about as much common sense as a wooden plank. Instead of dealing it with for what, 3 minutes? I have to spend a half hour? **** off. Lol.

Listen, if you want more people to play FP, just say it. Don't try to sell us this goofball notion that we have to play your game mode for arbitrary reasons you spaz.

Edit- Don't get me started on the wait times for FP...People complain about QP but I feel like I'm playing a lobby simulator if I decide to play a FP match.

I know you've been around enough to have seen this same migration happen time and time again. Remember when FP was brand new? Both groups and solos were all over the place and solos were told to "join a group." Remember that? Remember when the solos just gave up and went to QP?

This is the same thing all over again. If winning is important to you in QP, join a group. That's the way it is. If you don't care, then don't worry about it. Or, alternatively, if you want to play without being harvested by a T1 premade group, then go to FP. They're not over there anymore, they're in QP harvesting potatoes. It simply is. You cannot change that which Paul has decreed. Seriously. At which point has PGI ever listened to their playerbase?

[Mister Glitchdragon]

Meh.

Sometimes the matches feel really slanted one way or the other, but if you've played solo long enough, you know that's how it's been for a while before the changes to PSR, MM, and small groups in QP. Instead of the MM lumping you in with a bunch of individual bads on one hand or a bunch of gods on the other, now the MM is dropping a big premade block of bads or gods in to jack your game. I used to think that granularity in the MM was vital to solo queue; having played in this environment for a season, it doesn't feel much different than before. Stomps and rolls.... stomps and rolls...

morosis, on 17 July 2020 - 11:36 PM, said:

i miss being able to track meaningful stats about my performance as a solo player against other solo players.

This is probably the greatest loss for solo players. When it became clear that there was never going to be any real immersion in this game, I started to have fun paying attention to my stats as a way to find some kind of continuity or meaning to my play.

But even still, hasn't it always been this way? How many "Ace of Spades" badges have been earned by group coordination while farming casual groups and solo tots in group/faction queues, for example? PGI never distinguished stats and badges earned in group play from stats and badges earned by solos, so we'll never know. If you're a solo player in this game, your stats have always been biased downward against the stats of group players.

Ultimately, I think a lot of this "debate" on the matter of premades in the PUG is so much pi**ing in the wind. This wasn't some "quality of life" improvement, or some decision made after taking into consideration the desires of the community. The player base is shrinking, and group queue is non-viable dead weight. Even in old solo qp, matches were taking longer and longer to find, especially in off-peak hours. Consolidating the queues is the fastest, easiest fix in order to stave off the inevitable.

Given my choice, I'd rather have solos fighting solos and groups fighting groups. But I'm not so blind as to see that this game is dying, and my choice is a luxury I don't have if we want to keep the servers up and keep playing, which for now I still do.

In "maintenance mode" hard decisions have to be made. This thread is little more than the reading aloud of writing that's been on the wall for a while, now.

Edited by Mister Glitchdragon, 01 September 2020 - 07:23 AM.

[Kroete]

Mister Glitchdragon, on 01 September 2020 - 07:09 AM, said:

In "maintenance mode" hard decisions have to be made.

We have 90% soloplayers and 10% groupplayers that also can play solo in the soloqueue,
so let the 90% suffer to cater for the 10% to save the game?

I know pgi is not murican but that sounds trumpish ...

Edited by Kroete, 02 September 2020 - 01:17 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Kroete, on 02 September 2020 - 01:05 AM, said:

We have 90% soloplayers and 10% groupplayers that also can play solo in the soloqueue,
so let the 90% suffer to cater for the 10% to save the game?

I know pgi is not murican but that sounds trumpish ...

Far closer to what we've got with Democrats when you stop to consider that the 10% group players are the only people that consistently dump real money into PGI's bank accounts. The solo players tend to understand that there's no point in spending real money to get harvested like a baby seal. It's all about the cash.

Much like our Democrats. Money talks. Donate enough, you can land a State Department job.

[Nighthawk513]

You know why groups tend to have an extreme influence on the outcome of a match? It's simple.

They are more likely to use comms.

No, really. Groups are more likely to communicate, and by extension communicate with the team. And in MWO, the team that follows the call of a drop caller who knows what they are doing is going to beat a team that isn't coordinated 80% of the time, possibly more.
Team work makes the dream work. Remember that.

The fact that said drop caller typically has a few people from the group who will listen to their call certainly doesn't hurt, of course. But a group that manages 80%+ winrates is not only dropping as a group and doing well, but generally also calling to make the rest of the team do better.


Personally, merged que was the only reason I came back to this game. Group Que was dead, and solo que was boring. With the merge, I can play with a few friends and have a good time. The main issue at the moment is the tier reset. The vast majority of the population wasn't ready to deal with a lance of ex-t1 players working together as a cohesive unit in a battle, moving together and focusing down targets, and that level of play was virtually unseen at t3, much less lower. Once the tiers get sorted back out, it will be much better.

Edited by Nighthawk513, 03 September 2020 - 08:02 PM.

[OmniFail]

Willard Phule, on 02 September 2020 - 05:02 AM, said:

Far closer to what we've got with Democrats when you stop to consider that the 10% group players are the only people that consistently dump real money into PGI's bank accounts.

Citation or documented evidence needed to support your claim.

I do not believe you.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

I do not believe your 10% nor the money dumping thing. Source?

[Lykaon]

Nighthawk513, on 03 September 2020 - 08:01 PM, said:

You know why groups tend to have an extreme influence on the outcome of a match? It's simple.

They are more likely to use comms.

No, really. Groups are more likely to communicate, and by extension communicate with the team. And in MWO, the team that follows the call of a drop caller who knows what they are doing is going to beat a team that isn't coordinated 80% of the time, possibly more.
Team work makes the dream work. Remember that.

The fact that said drop caller typically has a few people from the group who will listen to their call certainly doesn't hurt, of course. But a group that manages 80%+ winrates is not only dropping as a group and doing well, but generally also calling to make the rest of the team do better.


Personally, merged que was the only reason I came back to this game. Group Que was dead, and solo que was boring. With the merge, I can play with a few friends and have a good time. The main issue at the moment is the tier reset. The vast majority of the population wasn't ready to deal with a lance of ex-t1 players working together as a cohesive unit in a battle, moving together and focusing down targets, and that level of play was virtually unseen at t3, much less lower. Once the tiers get sorted back out, it will be much better.

Many Solo players have a deep seeded aversion to TRUST. When I played solo (most of the time) I didn't feel the same degree of trust in my team as I felt when I was grouped.

I was far more willing to play aggressively in a group and when you play aggressively your team dictates the battle while the enemy has to react.

Uncoordinated reaction is usually closer to panic than a plan.Therefore coordination + aggression = wins

It is really as simple as that and nearly impossible if there is a lack of trust in your team.


it would be nice if players would stop looking at the game as solo vs group and instead focus on Red vs Blue.

Use your whole team all the time and win more matches. This means EVERYONE needs to trust more and learn to follow a leader or step up and lead when leadership is absent.

A bad plan frequently beats no plan and a good plan beats a bad plan.

I do not mind losing to a better coordinated team But I don't place a high value on victory won on the simple virtue of my team sucking slightly less then the bad guys.

And that is why I liked playing against coordinated teams. The victory was earned and not an accidental side effect of a capricious matchmaker.

[Nesutizale]

When there are only 10% group players, what are the solos complaining about? The chances of meeting them are rather slimm. Or there are more and PGI is indeed catering to a good number of people, more then you might think. Maybe solos aren't that much of a majority.

Concidering that I basicly see a small group at least every second match, more likely its more often, then I did say that small groups make up more like 35-40% of the playerbase.

[Knight Captain Morgan]

Nighthawk513, on 03 September 2020 - 08:01 PM, said:

You know why groups tend to have an extreme influence on the outcome of a match? It's simple.

They are more likely to use comms.

No, really. Groups are more likely to communicate, and by extension communicate with the team. And in MWO, the team that follows the call of a drop caller who knows what they are doing is going to beat a team that isn't coordinated 80% of the time, possibly more.
Team work makes the dream work. Remember that.

The fact that said drop caller typically has a few people from the group who will listen to their call certainly doesn't hurt, of course. But a group that manages 80%+ winrates is not only dropping as a group and doing well, but generally also calling to make the rest of the team do better.


Personally, merged que was the only reason I came back to this game. Group Que was dead, and solo que was boring. With the merge, I can play with a few friends and have a good time. The main issue at the moment is the tier reset. The vast majority of the population wasn't ready to deal with a lance of ex-t1 players working together as a cohesive unit in a battle, moving together and focusing down targets, and that level of play was virtually unseen at t3, much less lower. Once the tiers get sorted back out, it will be much better.

Yeah! That way groups can use public chat to tell their “team” to push while using their discord chat to laugh at all the scrubs who push and draw the enemy’s attention while their real team hangs back and racks damage sniping a distracted enemy.

Got tired of blocking the selfish who call for a push or yell at others to get in the circle while they themselves refuse to do either that I just stopped paying any mind to chat at all.

Edited by Knight Captain Morgan, 04 September 2020 - 05:14 AM.

[East Indy]

It comes down to the matchmaker not knowing how to handle edge case groups that are far better or worse than quantified, although there's a separate possibility that returning players who belong in Tier 4-5 provide an endless stream of mismatches.

Having data on both (first, group makeup on sweeps; second, number of newly returning players) would help greatly. Can someone page Paul?

[VonBruinwald]

East Indy, on 04 September 2020 - 10:58 AM, said:

Having data on both (first, group makeup on sweeps; second, number of newly returning players) would help greatly. Can someone page Paul?

It would also be nice to know what % of matches are dropping with group(s) present.

A further breakdown of the difference in number of group players per team would be appreciated.

[Anomalocaris]

Well it looks like the misinformation continues to flow. Just noted that player numbers on Steam charts have dropped back to April levels (when I quit playing) and the trend looks downward so I though I'd stop by and see if PGI had realized their merge queue errors. Yeah, like that was gonna happen.

1. Groups have a disproportionate influence on a match in both directions. That means bad groups impact team performance negatively just like good groups do so positively. So it isn't communication that's playing a role here, it's the grouping of similarly skilled players in a way that the matchmaker can't handle. Good groups tilt the matchmaker in the favor of their team (and yes communication contributes to their success), and grouping good players is a force multiplier, especially when said players bring synergistic build choices. Bad groups tilt the other way as a negative force multiplier. Multiple bads dropping together pretty much do even more stupid stuff than they could get away with alone even if they communicate.

2. Groups are not a big part of the population. Even taking into account the solos like me who stopped playing after merge queue, and the influx of "I wanna play with my friends" folks who came back to try merge, you're still looking at a maximum of 33% assuming every match has 2 groups of 4. And we know that doesn't happen. It's probably closer to two groups of 3 every other match if you look at streamer drops, youtube videos and such, which would equate to about 10-15% of the population. Not that PGI will ever share actual raw data on that. Either way, match quality dropped noticeably after merge queue was implemented, and the PSR reset has not done anything to fix that.

If you judge by match quality or player population, the merge was at best a net neutral change, but when you take out the population jump after the PSR reset (another missed opportunity), the numbers suggest it was a net negative for the game.

I'll check back in another month or two to see how far the player numbers have fallen. Cheers.

[Inject Disinfectant TODAY]

Willard Phule, on 02 September 2020 - 05:02 AM, said:

Far closer to what we've got with Democrats when you stop to consider that the 10% group players are the only people that consistently dump real money into PGI's bank accounts. The solo players tend to understand that there's no point in spending real money to get harvested like a baby seal. It's all about the cash.

Much like our Democrats. Money talks. Donate enough, you can land a State Department job.

Agreed. Noted MWO pilots Ambassador Aldona Wos, Postmaster General Louis DeJoy, and Ambassador Gordon Sondland also strongly agree and have all the proof anyone needs.

Also, I enjoy mechs and warrioring in them.

All hail Lord Putin.

[Lykaon]

Knight Captain Morgan, on 04 September 2020 - 04:38 AM, said:

Yeah! That way groups can use public chat to tell their “team” to push while using their discord chat to laugh at all the scrubs who push and draw the enemy’s attention while their real team hangs back and racks damage sniping a distracted enemy.

Got tired of blocking the selfish who call for a push or yell at others to get in the circle while they themselves refuse to do either that I just stopped paying any mind to chat at all.

Did your team win?

[Monkey Lover]

Knight Captain Morgan, on 04 September 2020 - 04:38 AM, said:

Yeah! That way groups can use public chat to tell their “team” to push while using their discord chat to laugh at all the scrubs who push and draw the enemy’s attention while their real team hangs back and racks damage sniping a distracted enemy.

Got tired of blocking the selfish who call for a push or yell at others to get in the circle while they themselves refuse to do either that I just stopped paying any mind to chat at all.

I never ask for any pug team to push because they will never do it. We used to get some good pushes in group q but no way in pug.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 04 September 2020 - 10:47 PM.

[Willard Phule]

Monkey Lover, on 04 September 2020 - 10:02 PM, said:

I never ask for any pug team to push because they will never do it. We used to get some good pushes in group q but no way in pug.

And it's hilarious watching those upper tier premade groups lose their sh*t when the T3 solos don't follow their orders or just start the nascar on their own. How dare those ridiculous peasants not listen to their betters. It's almost as if they don't want to be like them.

[Lykaon]

Willard Phule, on 05 September 2020 - 06:25 AM, said:

And it's hilarious watching those upper tier premade groups lose their sh*t when the T3 solos don't follow their orders or just start the nascar on their own. How dare those ridiculous peasants not listen to their betters. It's almost as if they don't want to be like them.

If it is in deed an upper tier premade they won't need the "ridiculous peasants" to do anything they will carry the win with the 4 players they have.

But honestly how many of those upper tier groups really exist?

Most of the groups in the quick play queue are composed of fairly average solo players who at the time are currently grouped.

Those players in groups in quick play are essentially differentiated from a "pure solo" player simply by the merit of accepting a group invite and playing with friends instead of 11 randoms who will with all likelihood scorn any attempt to cooperate or coordinate.

Since the very center of the anti group agenda is groups are unfair because they have the advantage of cooperation, Then why don't purist solos ever try to cooperate? Why do they not try to lead?

Believe me when I say the most common group in the quick play queue is composed of average Joes with no grand strategy,No deep meta with their mech builds they are just players playing in a group with what they want to pilot at the time.

The only real advantage these groups have is TRUST in each other.