83 replies to this topic

[The pessimistic optimist]

Nightbird, on 07 November 2020 - 04:17 PM, said:

Dumb firing lock-on missiles is not a thing past Tier 3.

Whatever it takes my friend

[D U N E]

IMO no -
I hate lrms like the next guy - though this makes lockons seriously powerful.

1. Streak mechs can now instantly gib lights. They move at what, 400mps now? So given half speed, and you are going to engage lights at around 200m - That means with instant lockon + missile travel time, a streak stormcrow (because why not) can kill/seriously mame a light in 1 second. Due to lockon time a light mech would have had the chance to get into cover before firing, now if you have some pre-warning you might be able to evade, though you'll likely take some damage. With no warning, you likely are looking at some seriously easy damage. Also if the streak mech is smart, you now have the ability to torso twist and get off more than opportune shots.
Spread mechanic will be bad for streaks, though given the firepower of the launchers and the total HP of the majority of lights in the game, you still have a weapon system that is going to decimate them while requiring even less skill than it use to.
This is just a streak buff.

2. ATM mechs also become more powerful, one they can do the same light gibbing, two they allow ATM poptarts vastly easier usability, and even with increased spread, you are looking at what - 80 damage alphas that can just appear for a split second, no UAV or prior lockon needed? So ATM's which are a close range weapon anyway get a large buff. Slower velocity IMO is not the end of the world due to the aimed range an ATM mech wants to be in, the 400-500m ATM mechs might feel this somewhat - though the ATM veagles will likely rejoice. Since even with more spread, ATMs deal a lot of damage and can quickly end a mech due to attrition.

3. LRM mechs may see this as a buff or a nerf pending on range. Midrange lrms can popup, get lock, and pull back to break LOS, then fire and use indirect missile arcs to enable them to fire over enemy cover - they can also just popup, fire and full pack to get LOS arc if enemy isn't in cover - longer range missiles will likely be penalized due to the fact they will lose lock before missiles hit the enemy.

Lock-ons need reduced effectiveness - not increased. While I don't think this will unbalance LRMs, Streaks and ATM's have way too much to gain, especially with how they are currently used.

Edited by D U N E, 08 November 2020 - 10:22 AM.

[Nightbird]

D U N E, on 08 November 2020 - 10:16 AM, said:

IMO no -
I hate lrms like the next guy - though this makes lockons seriously powerful.

1. Streak mechs can now instantly gib lights. They move at what, 400mps now? So given half speed, and you are going to engage lights at around 200m - That means with instant lockon + missile travel time, a streak stormcrow (because why not) can kill/seriously mame a light in 1 second. Due to lockon time a light mech would have had the chance to get into cover before firing, now if you have some pre-warning you might be able to evade, though you'll likely take some damage. With no warning, you likely are looking at some seriously easy damage. Also if the streak mech is smart, you now have the ability to torso twist and get off more than opportune shots.
Spread mechanic will be bad for streaks, though given the firepower of the launchers and the total HP of the majority of lights in the game, you still have a weapon system that is going to decimate them while requiring even less skill than it use to.
This is just a streak buff.

2. ATM mechs also become more powerful, one they can do the same light gibbing, two they allow ATM poptarts vastly easier usability, and even with increased spread, you are looking at what - 80 damage alphas that can just appear for a split second, no UAV or prior lockon needed? So ATM's which are a close range weapon anyway get a large buff. Slower velocity IMO is not the end of the world due to the aimed range an ATM mech wants to be in, the 400-500m ATM mechs might feel this somewhat - though the ATM veagles will likely rejoice. Since even with more spread, ATMs deal a lot of damage and can quickly end a mech due to attrition.

3. LRM mechs may see this as a buff or a nerf pending on range. Midrange lrms can popup, get lock, and pull back to break LOS, then fire and use indirect missile arcs to enable them to fire over enemy cover - they can also just popup, fire and full pack to get LOS arc if enemy isn't in cover - longer range missiles will likely be penalized due to the fact they will lose lock before missiles hit the enemy.

Lock-ons need reduced effectiveness - not increased. While I don't think this will unbalance LRMs, Streaks and ATM's have way too much to gain, especially with how they are currently used.

1. The balance point is only half of missiles will hit lights. TTK will go up 100% since you can't kill most lights with one volley anyways (and for lights that you used to be able to kill with one volley, TTK goes up 300% because you won't be able to kill one now)

2. Bring 1 AMS or skill radar derp. ATMs countered.

3. Bring 1 AMS or skill radar derp. LRMs countered.

In all cases, AMS becomes more powerful. Excluding streaks, radar derp and cover becomes more powerful since you have a longer warning before the missiles hit.

Edited by Nightbird, 08 November 2020 - 11:01 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

D U N E, on 08 November 2020 - 10:16 AM, said:

IMO no -
I hate lrms like the next guy - though this makes lockons seriously powerful.

1. Streak mechs can now instantly gib lights. They move at what, 400mps now? So given half speed, and you are going to engage lights at around 200m - That means with instant lockon + missile travel time, a streak stormcrow (because why not) can kill/seriously mame a light in 1 second. Due to lockon time a light mech would have had the chance to get into cover before firing, now if you have some pre-warning you might be able to evade, though you'll likely take some damage. With no warning, you likely are looking at some seriously easy damage. Also if the streak mech is smart, you now have the ability to torso twist and get off more than opportune shots.
Spread mechanic will be bad for streaks, though given the firepower of the launchers and the total HP of the majority of lights in the game, you still have a weapon system that is going to decimate them while requiring even less skill than it use to.
This is just a streak buff.

2. ATM mechs also become more powerful, one they can do the same light gibbing, two they allow ATM poptarts vastly easier usability, and even with increased spread, you are looking at what - 80 damage alphas that can just appear for a split second, no UAV or prior lockon needed? So ATM's which are a close range weapon anyway get a large buff. Slower velocity IMO is not the end of the world due to the aimed range an ATM mech wants to be in, the 400-500m ATM mechs might feel this somewhat - though the ATM veagles will likely rejoice. Since even with more spread, ATMs deal a lot of damage and can quickly end a mech due to attrition.

3. LRM mechs may see this as a buff or a nerf pending on range. Midrange lrms can popup, get lock, and pull back to break LOS, then fire and use indirect missile arcs to enable them to fire over enemy cover - they can also just popup, fire and full pack to get LOS arc if enemy isn't in cover - longer range missiles will likely be penalized due to the fact they will lose lock before missiles hit the enemy.

Lock-ons need reduced effectiveness - not increased. While I don't think this will unbalance LRMs, Streaks and ATM's have way too much to gain, especially with how they are currently used.

Oh there fine there a hard counter in the game

[D U N E]

Nightbird, on 08 November 2020 - 10:52 AM, said:

1. The balance point is only half of missiles will hit lights. TTK will go up 100% since you can't kill most lights with one volley anyways (and for lights that you used to be able to kill with one volley, TTK goes up 300% because you won't be able to kill one now)

2. Bring 1 AMS or skill radar derp. ATMs countered.

3. Bring 1 AMS or skill radar derp. LRMs countered.

In all cases, AMS becomes more powerful. Excluding streaks, radar derp and cover becomes more powerful since you have a longer warning before the missiles hit.

1. The core way to not take streak damage is to get into cover before lock on. 2/3 seconds to lockon + streak missile time to impact vs just a slower time to impact. You may take less damage when a streak mech does hit you - though you exponentially increase the chances that a streak mech will hit you in the first place. You also use a piranha, which is like 1/3rd the surface area of larger mechs like the wolfhound - so you are still taking a majority of a streak blast.

2. If you are saying 1 AMS is going to stop 3 ATM 9, sure - All for it since I absolutely despise lockoms, though balance wise - that is unfair. If you think radar derp is going to help from a poptart in 200-300m - Not really. Like most the time I see those mechs, the missiles are right upon the enemy by the time you drop down - radar derp in that case is useless. Long/mid range indirect you don't need to worry about ATMs - mainly due to how shallow their arc is.

3. Almost the same for the above, though LRM mechs no longer need to spend as long above ground acquiring lock, meaning they can easily bully larger slower dakka mechs. Also, if there is no lockon time, full teams of LRMs now also gain a significant buff, since they can now instantly switch to 1 radar signature without wait time (which usually would have been lost DPS) and you can get better coordinated fire.

Edit: I will say, I have just read some of the early comments - I am all for some alternatives changes similar to this - Though in no way do I want a change like this.
Lock on time could be reduced - though personally.

I want to see a change to how radar derp works with longer lock time - though also reduce the lock time available. This is for things like LRMs having the chance to fire twice at you, one direct and one indirect. Alongside this, indirect having a good bit more spread base, they should punish people for being out sure, though moment you get good numbers you watch mechs get maimed for minor errors.

Weapons like streaks need to allow a pilot to also just avoid the fire, I seen someone say about skilled play with the integrity of holding your lock. If lock-on's had a further reduced pointer alongside a faster loss of time to lock-on from missing parts, I could be on board. Lights need to have a chance to avoid that damage if someone can't keep that bead on them.

ATM's, honestly got no words for that, either they are a massive issue, or no issue at all. From people that know what they are doing when poptarting they are a irritating weapon, though for the mass of pugs they shoot into walls. So long as some lockon time is required, it doesn't completely drive ATM's into being OP.

Edited by D U N E, 08 November 2020 - 12:59 PM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

D U N E, on 08 November 2020 - 12:46 PM, said:

2. If you are saying 1 AMS is going to stop 3 ATM 9, sure - All for it since I absolutely despise lockoms, though balance wise - that is unfair. If you think radar derp is going to help from a poptart in 200-300m - Not really. Like most the time I see those mechs, the missiles are right upon the enemy by the time you drop down - radar derp in that case is useless. Long/mid range indirect you don't need to worry about ATMs - mainly due to how shallow their arc is.

AMS is not going to stop everything it not post to stop everything just some of them and maybe all of them depending on type and number. I know you guy want these weapons out of the game but nerfing them to uselessness is next best thing

[D U N E]

SirSmokes, on 08 November 2020 - 12:51 PM, said:

AMS is not going to stop everything it not post to stop everything just some of them and maybe all of them depending on type and number. I know you guy want these weapons out of the game but nerfing them to uselessness is next best thing

Honestly, you don't give reasons or explain your points - Nighty here is at least trying to explain what does why, if you can't see how this is a buff, I don't see a reason to answer back beyond this message.
Lockons should involve more skill than they currently do - and there are games with lock on weapons that involve skill to use effectively, for the most part, MWO is not one of those games. I get hit by a lock-on and I feel cheated. 5 damage from a lockon irritates me more than 50 pinpoint damage into my CT from a DHG, because I know at least one person had to try. I am against this in this form since I feel people still don't need to try, and to some acquiring the lockon in the first place is the hardest thing to do in the game.

So, shorter lockon time, but an actual hard to get lock, I am all for that. Giving players an easy weapon to compete, to higher skilled player, no - I am not for that.

If you won't give reasoning, I won't be replying to you further, good day.

[The pessimistic optimist]

D U N E, on 08 November 2020 - 01:06 PM, said:

Honestly, you don't give reasons or explain your points - Nighty here is at least trying to explain what does why, if you can't see how this is a buff, I don't see a reason to answer back beyond this message.
Lockons should involve more skill than they currently do - and there are games with lock on weapons that involve skill to use effectively, for the most part, MWO is not one of those games. I get hit by a lock-on and I feel cheated. 5 damage from a lockon irritates me more than 50 pinpoint damage into my CT from a DHG, because I know at least one person had to try. I am against this in this form since I feel people still don't need to try, and to some acquiring the lockon in the first place is the hardest thing to do in the game.

So, shorter lockon time, but an actual hard to get lock, I am all for that. Giving players an easy weapon to compete, to higher skilled player, no - I am not for that.

If you won't give reasoning, I won't be replying to you further, good day.

I don't have problems with getting hit with them I know how to avoid them and as far as skill people that don't play them don't really know how to use them so they make a lot of assumptions. I play everything

Edited by SirSmokes, 08 November 2020 - 01:15 PM.

[Nightbird]

D U N E, on 08 November 2020 - 12:46 PM, said:

1. The core way to not take streak damage is to get into cover before lock on. 2/3 seconds to lockon + streak missile time to impact vs just a slower time to impact. You may take less damage when a streak mech does hit you - though you exponentially increase the chances that a streak mech will hit you in the first place. You also use a piranha, which is like 1/3rd the surface area of larger mechs like the wolfhound - so you are still taking a majority of a streak blast.

2. If you are saying 1 AMS is going to stop 3 ATM 9, sure - All for it since I absolutely despise lockoms, though balance wise - that is unfair. If you think radar derp is going to help from a poptart in 200-300m - Not really. Like most the time I see those mechs, the missiles are right upon the enemy by the time you drop down - radar derp in that case is useless. Long/mid range indirect you don't need to worry about ATMs - mainly due to how shallow their arc is.

3. Almost the same for the above, though LRM mechs no longer need to spend as long above ground acquiring lock, meaning they can easily bully larger slower dakka mechs. Also, if there is no lockon time, full teams of LRMs now also gain a significant buff, since they can now instantly switch to 1 radar signature without wait time (which usually would have been lost DPS) and you can get better coordinated fire.

Edit: I will say, I have just read some of the early comments - I am all for some alternatives changes similar to this - Though in no way do I want a change like this.
Lock on time could be reduced - though personally.

I want to see a change to how radar derp works with longer lock time - though also reduce the lock time available. This is for things like LRMs having the chance to fire twice at you, one direct and one indirect. Alongside this, indirect having a good bit more spread base, they should punish people for being out sure, though moment you get good numbers you watch mechs get maimed for minor errors.

Weapons like streaks need to allow a pilot to also just avoid the fire, I seen someone say about skilled play with the integrity of holding your lock. If lock-on's had a further reduced pointer alongside a faster loss of time to lock-on from missing parts, I could be on board. Lights need to have a chance to avoid that damage if someone can't keep that bead on them.

ATM's, honestly got no words for that, either they are a massive issue, or no issue at all. From people that know what they are doing when poptarting they are a irritating weapon, though for the mass of pugs they shoot into walls. So long as some lockon time is required, it doesn't completely drive ATM's into being OP.

1. If Streaks go to a spread mechanic, a piranha taking half the volley from front = a torso twisted WLF takes half a volley as well. The current homing mechanic actually punishes torso twisting, since all missiles hit one ST and is far more likely to kill you.

2. No, 1 AMS will probably only stop 1 ATM9, but if you have 2 team mates with 1 AMS beside you, it is an easy to utilize hard counter. The ATM mech becomes forced to find a target at the outside the AMS bubble.

3. Yes and no. If the slow dakka mech has AMS, then they are harder to damage than today. If no AMS or ECM protection, it will die faster. The whole idea is a give and take, without any intent to change the overall power level of lock-ons.

[Nightbird]

Currently, almost no one uses AMS in QP or FP. This is because lock-ons are not much of a threat if you move from cover-to-cover. The buff is to make lock-ons easier to shoot, thus do damage to people with no protection (AMS, ECM, radar deprivation). The nerf is to encourage some AMS usage to mitigate missile damage, maybe up from 10% of players to 25% of players.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Nightbird, on 08 November 2020 - 01:25 PM, said:

Currently, almost no one uses AMS in QP or FP. This is because lock-ons are not much of a threat if you move from cover-to-cover. The buff is to make lock-ons easier to shoot, thus do damage to people with no protection (AMS, ECM, radar deprivation). The nerf is to encourage some AMS usage to mitigate missile damage, maybe up from 10% of players to 25% of players.

If people that played LRM knew how to position right and were to be in relation to there team and on the map so they are getting hits. If people took more AMS missile damage would be lower and there are AMS boat mechs so still not sure were the problem is

[D U N E]

Nightbird, on 08 November 2020 - 01:22 PM, said:

1. If Streaks go to a spread mechanic, a piranha taking half the volley from front = a torso twisted WLF takes half a volley as well. The current homing mechanic actually punishes torso twisting, since all missiles hit one ST and is far more likely to kill you.

2. No, 1 AMS will probably only stop 1 ATM9, but if you have 2 team mates with 1 AMS beside you, it is an easy to utilize hard counter. The ATM mech becomes forced to find a target at the outside the AMS bubble.

3. Yes and no. If the slow dakka mech has AMS, then they are harder to damage than today. If no AMS or ECM protection, it will die faster. The whole idea is a give and take, without any intent to change the overall power level of lock-ons.

Focusing on that last point.

1. Streaks are still going to heavily benefit, given what I know of ATM's, hard twisting one isn't the best idea either. I would argue you are still getting 80(ish)% of that volley into the mech - which means, given no min range, an instant lock time is going to become imbalanced.

2. That's actually fair enough - I would be up to the idea that AMS can shred through missiles like that then, likely it shouldn't be exactly that punishing. Though if we look at the 1-1 engagements you are going to generally find. Knocking off 27 damage from a streak mech from 1 AMS isn't half bad. Though if it does become like that, should probably look into the matter at hand with how this works when you have 6-8 mechs carrying at least 1ams (which TBF, we should be seeing)

3. Saying the last point is looking at coordinated LRM mechs, which you yourself have said you play with in some capacity. 1 AMS is not going to cut it. Now obviously the argument should be looking at the idea that you have 6-8 AMS mechs, and mechs aren't all hiding in one spot, availability of cover, etc.

Personally, as already stated, I feel lower lock time can lead to more skill based gameplay. Though my thoughts on the matter are that the lock on area needs to be much smaller, and a pilot not on the lock needs to be penalized: degraded performance of missiles, lock is lost faster, etc. I feel a issue that needs to be dealt with is making that lock 'hard' to get and maintain - regardless of if you are in the open or behind cover. If it could stop being free damage that would be great.


Edit:

Nightbird, on 08 November 2020 - 01:22 PM, said:

[Currently, almost no one uses AMS in QP or FP. This is because lock-ons are not much of a threat if you move from cover-to-cover. The buff is to make lock-ons easier to shoot, thus do damage to people with no protection (AMS, ECM, radar deprivation). The nerf is to encourage some AMS usage to mitigate missile damage, maybe up from 10% of players to 25% of players.

I mean, lock-ons are mainly not a threat because the pilots that use them tend to be ultra-passive, don't seek locks, may not have the mech skilled, using weak launchers, etc. Actual LRM boats in actual teams are very dangerous. Was it 2019 worlds were we seen EmP and EON both bringing just lrm boats on canyon. Despite the cover, organized play allowed for no safety. Now this is looking at a rarity, not a common occurrence, but LRMs currently have the ability to be the most optimal weapon. They have long range, they have DPS, they can be used to maximize mechs shooting one target, properly spread out it means you can't easily kill them - through attrition they can be the deadliest weapon - TBF, I would argue we don't see them in comp as much as they could be due to the fact they aren't respected, and the stakes aren't that high currently.

Edited by D U N E, 08 November 2020 - 01:47 PM.

[Nightbird]

D U N E, on 08 November 2020 - 01:42 PM, said:

1. Streaks are still going to heavily benefit, given what I know of ATM's, hard twisting one isn't the best idea either. I would argue you are still getting 80(ish)% of that volley into the mech - which means, given no min range, an instant lock time is going to become imbalanced.

Compare the profile of a WLF on the side with the torsos of an Atlas from the front...

[The pessimistic optimist]

D U N E, on 08 November 2020 - 01:42 PM, said:

I mean, lock-ons are mainly not a threat because the pilots that use them tend to be ultra-passive, don't seek locks, may not have the mech skilled, using weak launchers, etc. Actual LRM boats in actual teams are very dangerous. Was it 2019 worlds were we seen EmP and EON both bringing just lrm boats on canyon. Despite the cover, organized play allowed for no safety. Now this is looking at a rarity, not a common occurrence, but LRMs currently have the ability to be the most optimal weapon. They have long range, they have DPS, they can be used to maximize mechs shooting one target, properly spread out it means you can't easily kill them - through attrition they can be the deadliest weapon - TBF, I would argue we don't see them in comp as much as they could be due to the fact they aren't respected, and the stakes aren't that high currently.

Yes there working as intended so the problem still is?

Edited by SirSmokes, 08 November 2020 - 02:07 PM.

[Nightbird]

SirSmokes, on 08 November 2020 - 02:06 PM, said:

Yes there working as intended so the problem still is?

Outside the ATM Veagle, good pilots recognize that missiles are the red headed step-child compared with lasers, dakka, and PPCs.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Nightbird, on 08 November 2020 - 02:09 PM, said:

Outside the ATM Veagle, good pilots recognize that missiles are the red headed step-child compared with lasers, dakka, and PPCs.

Good then so not a problem so everyone just being silly good to know

Edited by SirSmokes, 08 November 2020 - 02:19 PM.

[D U N E]

Nightbird, on 08 November 2020 - 01:59 PM, said:

Compare the profile of a WLF on the side with the torsos of an Atlas from the front...

I did a test of missiles equaling a similar damage on a centurion, since the Wolf and Cent are similar sizes. ATM, Streak and Indirect LRM to really see how many missiles miss/spread.

This is just a Piranha vs Atlas and Wolfhound. I used the switch between mech functions so the piranhas are to scale - check the background to see if it looks similar enough if you don't believe me.

So if only 50% of the missiles will hit the piranha, it could be assumed that streaks would be able to focus down the CT's of the atlas pretty damn well. If we assume streaks have similar spread to lrms or atms, I wouldn't think you would want to give it more than these weapons, we can see there is only minor damage lost from twisting (though in fairness, the centurions arm is large, though I would need a wolfhound to actually test vs a wolfhound) - and we are seeing the streaks become more competent weapons due to the fact they no longer spread around components.

Moving does affect these weapons, so that may create a vast difference, but in line with my other points, you just are creating a much more effective anti-light weapon. - Like ****, hard twist streaks and while you may avoid 2% of the damage, you allow that damage to be more precise on one side (if you lose your arm, not a good idea) though ATM's on that mech seems to love hitting those legs regardless however. The tactic seems to be only twist if your CT is really damage. Meanwhile currently - it just spreads equally. - In fact, unless you make streaks less accurate than indirect LRM, in which case, you are going against the principle of a direct fire "accurate" SRM - they seem to be more effective overall. Like reducing that spread to all components - sure it is taking slightly less damage, but now you have more focused damage as a byproduct it seems. I would take completely spread damage over something that is going to rip the legs off of my light mech any day.
Oh yea... And now you can instantly lock of the enemy...

Edited by D U N E, 08 November 2020 - 03:07 PM.

[Nightbird]

D U N E, on 08 November 2020 - 02:53 PM, said:

I did a test of missiles equaling a similar damage on a centurion, since the Wolf and Cent are similar sizes. ATM, Streak and Indirect LRM to really see how many missiles miss/spread.

Thanks for doing the test and comparison, it's more than I expected from forums. Please find my reply below.

1. If 50% of missiles hit a piranha from the front, then from your red boxing, only 60-65% will hit the WLF from the front?

2. It can be seen that all the missiles will hit the Atlas torsos as proposed, of course, the Atlas can twist and spread it to arms.

3. If a WLF twists, less than half the missiles will hit it, and compared to Streaks today, you are not punished for twisting since missiles will not home in on components.

In the end, is it possible to tweak streaks to do what I said it should do? 100% more TTK against lights, and 50% less TTK against assaults that don't twist?

[D U N E]

Nightbird, on 08 November 2020 - 03:19 PM, said:

Thanks for doing the test and comparison, it's more than I expected from forums. Please find my reply below.

1. If 50% of missiles hit a piranha from the front, then from your red boxing, only 60-65% will hit the WLF from the front?

2. It can be seen that all the missiles will hit the Atlas torsos as proposed, of course, the Atlas can twist and spread it to arms.

3. If a WLF twists, less than half the missiles will hit it, and compared to Streaks today, you are not punished for twisting since missiles will not home in on components.

In the end, is it possible to tweak streaks to do what I said it should do? 100% more TTK against lights, and 50% less TTK against assaults that don't twist?

That's all good - Not having a civil debate is counter productive.

1. Well that's still a good amount of firepower hitting the mech - yes it is less, though I am going to guess it is going to be more localized due to using PGI's set spread patterns that they currently have.

2. Nothing to really argue, sure Atlas can twist. Though it is to note that now, (though this is intended by you) the streaks are dealing more serious damage to assaults.

3. Once again, this is a question of if PGI can do it this way. If you could twist and watch damage evade you, that would be great, though looking at their other missiles in the game. This is not going to be the case, instead you are going to have more precise damage localized into the torso/legs of your mech. Which means twisting is still going to be a bad thing.

[Nightbird]

D U N E, on 08 November 2020 - 03:38 PM, said:

3. Once again, this is a question of if PGI can do it this way. If you could twist and watch damage evade you, that would be great, though looking at their other missiles in the game. This is not going to be the case, instead you are going to have more precise damage localized into the torso/legs of your mech. Which means twisting is still going to be a bad thing.

Yep, though I think the Cent may be too large. Try ATMing a commando from the front and side and it should show a better effect.