199 replies to this topic

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Miss Greene, on 14 November 2020 - 11:27 PM, said:

No you don't, because there are no other stompy shooters.

BattleTech is also as generic as it gets, anyway.

Titanfall...Hawken...Robotwar ...Heavy Gear universe ...Front Mission Wanzer Games...Gundam Games...Daemon X machines...Amored Core ...

You have ever heard from the BT/MW universe before MWO?

justcallme C L O U D, on 11 November 2020 - 07:03 AM, said:

An engine change over would kill MWO, we've already seen what a year of maintenance mode has done for MWO and I can almost guarantee that if there hadn't been a pandemic the game would either already be dead or in such a sorry state that it'd be virtually unplayable outside of peak hours.

And what would we get out of it anyway? The possibility of additional mechanics that PGI still probably wouldn't add (boy I love ammo swapping in MW5) and prettier graphics?

No , a technical Crew thats can support the Game , and can bring content and new Mechanics...by MWO we have nothing Coders and programmers since 2015 and PGI find and hired only UE 4 people since the bad days of the Transverse Disaster,so MWO is Dead ,has nothing technical and coding Support thats more as playing with XML Files(seeing not back IK and Collisions Knock Down System, good Looking Maps )

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 15 November 2020 - 04:02 AM.

[jss78]

Miss Greene, on 15 November 2020 - 01:19 AM, said:

That's a very good question. Frankly, the IP seems to be holding this game back more than helping it succeed.

You wouldn't be removing the concept of chassis and weight classes necessarily, just the baggage of a piecemeal IP assembled from bits stolen from other, better IPs.

I'd argue with our hypothetical "MWO2" there absolutely is a way to take lots of valuable stuff from this IP while making it into a workable PvP FPS.

This exchange started with my suggestion to ruthlessly strip down # of variants, and also dump the lore builds. I think needs to be done, so the game isn't littered with hundreds of superfluous variants, and so that the 'mech you buy (possibly with real money) is from outset balanced for the game with its default build.

I think it's quite leap to go from here to say the IP, the universe or the lore is worthless to the game. We'd still have the (nowadays) phenomenal 'mech art. We'd still have Thunderbolts, Timberwolves etc. You'd just streamline/abstract their precise builds until you end up with something that's worthwhile in a PvP FPS -- which isn't the same as throwing everything away.

I'd also go all-in with the lore in places where it doesn't break gameplay. The great houses, the inner sphere maps and the back stories give a great feeling of depth and meaning, even if it doesn't proximally affect gameplay.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

jss78, on 15 November 2020 - 04:05 AM, said:

I'd argue with our hypothetical "MWO2" there absolutely is a way to take lots of valuable stuff from this IP while making it into a workable PvP FPS.

This exchange started with my suggestion to ruthlessly strip down # of variants, and also dump the lore builds. I think needs to be done, so the game isn't littered with hundreds of superfluous variants, and so that the 'mech you buy (possibly with real money) is from outset balanced for the game with its default build.

I think it's quite leap to go from here to say the IP, the universe or the lore is worthless to the game. We'd still have the (nowadays) phenomenal 'mech art. We'd still have Thunderbolts, Timberwolves etc. You'd just streamline/abstract their precise builds until you end up with something that's worthwhile in a PvP FPS -- which isn't the same as throwing everything away.

I'd also go all-in with the lore in places where it doesn't break gameplay. The great houses, the inner sphere maps and the back stories give a great feeling of depth and meaning, even if it doesn't proximally affect gameplay.

Oh no ...a generic Shooter Game like Warzone Cod with Mechskins?or a Kidding Mech assault? (and a HDR Sniper Rifle is not equals to a M91 )all Thats tahats love this FPS Shooter not playing a Mechshooter, no ...he playing further normal Shooters,go away to looking to other Goalgroups , thats coast all and brings nothing ,we not brought a further Shooter Clone to the Market

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 15 November 2020 - 04:11 AM.

[Gagis]

jss78, on 15 November 2020 - 04:05 AM, said:

This exchange started with my suggestion to ruthlessly strip down # of variants, and also dump the lore builds. I think needs to be done, so the game isn't littered with hundreds of superfluous variants, and so that the 'mech you buy (possibly with real money) is from outset balanced for the game with its default build.

You are making an excellent point here, and I want to support it with some boardgame geekery.

The stock loadouts and bracket builds that are bad in MWO are just as bad in the board game. I cannot stress this hard enough. The same things that are weak in MWO are weak in the Battletech board game.

They are bad on purpose for the sake of balancing boxed board game products where you might have 1-4 mechs for each of 2 players and all mechs in the box are purposefully made significantly weaker than the build rules would theoretically allow in order to keep the game balanced with the set of a handful of mechs included in your box. An actually optimal mech design would make making such a product harder. The same logic does not apply to making video games at all.

MWO does not share any of the reasons Battletech has for most of its mech designs being purposefully bad.

Edited by Gagis, 15 November 2020 - 05:22 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

if you change the values of the video game against the outdated and sometimes absurd board game values ( a Mech can grab a Tree for fighting ,and when have one Ton of ammunition more as the Rules say the internal structures break away), you change the universe and the recognition value of the fans, and only they are interested in MW/BT (and give the Lot of Money), all others have a look at it, until they jump on the next shooter. A Star Wars fan wants to see his iconic variations and units and the logic of his universe, like a Wh40K fan, otherwise what Disney did with Star Wars will happen, and you'll have to leave the whole BT franchise behind and build your own universe.

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 15 November 2020 - 07:02 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

MW Waldorf Statler, on 15 November 2020 - 03:54 AM, said:

Titanfall...Hawken...Robotwar ...Heavy Gear universe ...Front Mission Wanzer Games...Gundam Games...Daemon X machines...Amored Core ...

Of all of those, none of them is stompy. They are all agility-focused games, even Heavy Gear.

Quote

You have ever heard from the BT/MW universe before MWO?

Yes, and it never interested me before MWO.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Miss Greene, on 15 November 2020 - 05:33 PM, said:

Of all of those, none of them is stompy. They are all agility-focused games, even Heavy Gear.



Yes, and it never interested me before MWO.

Well this game is based on that game you don't care about

[Y E O N N E]

SirSmokes, on 15 November 2020 - 05:34 PM, said:

Well this game is based on that game you don't care about

It also plays differently to that game I don't care about. What's your point?

Edited by Miss Greene, 15 November 2020 - 06:10 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Miss Greene, on 15 November 2020 - 06:09 PM, said:

It also plays differently to that game I don't care about. What's your point?

You have no Idea from the BT Universe?the novels,Board Games, Minature games? thats after WH40k one of the biggest SiFi Table Top Universe.

Thats like you say ...Boah ,the Tie Fighters have no Shields, away with thats Vehicle ,is weak against a X-Wing


in Further Mind to other Universe or Games ...away with the Weak Sherman Tank against a Tiger Tank or im will have a Abrams in it (whats interest me the WKII reality), or away the MP`s and Shotguns in a Shooter, weak against a Nooblauncher or M91 or AMX Sniper rifle and in TT its give no weak Chassies, the luck of Dice make all the same.

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 15 November 2020 - 07:08 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

MW Waldorf Statler, on 15 November 2020 - 07:05 PM, said:

You have no Idea from the BT Universe?the novels,Board Games, Minature games? thats after WH40k one of the biggest SiFi Table Top Universe.

Thats like you say ...Boah ,the Tie Fighters have no Shields, away with thats Vehicle ,is weak against a X-Wing


in Further Mind to other Universe or Games ...away with the Weak Sherman Tank against a Tiger Tank or im will have a Abrams in it (whats interest me the WKII reality), or away the MP`s and Shotguns in a Shooter, weak against a Nooblauncher or M91 or AMX Sniper rifle and in TT its give no weak Chassies, the luck of Dice make all the same.

I am better versed in BattleTech than probably half the people on this forum. The original 'Mech designs are literally stolen or licensed from other IPs, the ones people are most nostalgic for. The setting is forgettable with holes in the story and conflicting in-world mechanics that preclude me from being able to suspend my disbelief and roll with it "because rule of cool", and it would all benefit from a reboot and a rewrite. I don't care at all for Table Top.

I am here because I like the way the game plays, there is no other game like it. There are many shoddy decisions that have been made during its development and support periods that have been driven by grognards demanding more adherence to TT or the lore. Ergo, my position is that this game would be better able to flourish if it either decided to be a re-interpretation of BT or ditched BT entirely. I don't particularly care either way.

Star Wars is also a poor reference, especially in light of how much of a complete trainwreck the new films have made the internal workings of the Star Wars universe.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Yes , like other Universe its have many stupid Elements and Ideas ...and big Difference between novel,TT and ideogames....the technical Side is a other Factor by PC/Videogames (which Functions you can control with keyboard or Controller?) the Novels and TT the mechs have more agility (in the novels Mechs can crouching or a little climbing),here the Mechs bigger, and slower and a Rock a impassable Problem)...Wtf ...every seeing here a Running mech? (and the Animations most cruefull here against MW4...Daishi Ballerina) and many Desings physical Nonsense in the old Technical readout Books, or Mechs like the hollander, or why Mechs have fullmodelled Hands? to play Piano ? thats the first part thats detsroyed,and cost Money,Material and is for a military Machine uselesss (we can build today fullmodelled Manipulatorhands, why demining Vehicles not use it?) ,and for handling of Eqipment you can use a simple Claw similar to the Elementars ,thats a old Element from the Japanese mechadesign survived over all Years

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 15 November 2020 - 09:43 PM.

[Anjian]

Miss Greene, on 15 November 2020 - 05:33 PM, said:

Of all of those, none of them is stompy. They are all agility-focused games, even Heavy Gear.



Yes, and it never interested me before MWO.

There are plenty of casual mech shooters in mobile, where the download counts are in the hundreds of thousands to millions. This shows you there is a market for stompy positional shooting but without being complex. This is a market where people wnat to casually grab an available device, get into a quick match, finish match quick, rinse and repeat until they have something better to do and does not tie them up. This may not be your thing however. Only I am saying that there is a huge market out there.

No one really cares about BT history or lore anymore, only the idea of giant robots shooting each other to bits.

If you invent your own robot IP of your own vision---agility, stompy, flying, tanklike, anime like, realistic, first person, third person, single player, multiplayer, coop, pvp---and make a quality game out of it, you are going to be as equally or more successful than you would to license the BT/MW IP.

Edited by Anjian, 15 November 2020 - 10:04 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Anjian, on 15 November 2020 - 10:04 PM, said:

There are plenty of casual mech shooters in mobile, where the download counts are in the hundreds of thousands to millions. This shows you there is a market for stompy positional shooting but without being complex. This is a market where people wnat to casually grab an available device, get into a quick match, finish match quick, rinse and repeat until they have something better to do and does not tie them up. This may not be your thing however. Only I am saying that there is a huge market out there.

No one really cares about BT history or lore anymore, only the idea of giant robots shooting each other to bits.

If you invent your own robot IP of your own vision---agility, stompy, flying, tanklike, anime like, realistic, first person, third person, single player, multiplayer, coop, pvp---and make a quality game out of it, you are going to be as equally or more successful than you would to license the BT/MW IP.

I'm not interested in mobile games.

[Gagis]

When someone opposes sensible game design choices on grounds of the board game, pretty much every single time they don't have the faintest clue how the game all the lore is based on actually works. It is a very good board game so please don't let people justifying their insistence on bad design on it spoil it for you.

Feel free to ignore these people.

[Anjian]

Miss Greene, on 15 November 2020 - 10:05 PM, said:

I'm not interested in mobile games.

Like I already said, its not your game.

It does not mean there are not hundreds of thousands to millions playing these games because, well there are.

It is what it is.

No one is going to make a game that only say, ten to fifty thousand players will play and expect an average of $15 per month per user and expect to get AAA rated quality out of it.

Waiter, reality check please.

[General Solo]

Nightbird, on 09 November 2020 - 11:20 AM, said:

Most people would like to see MWO redone using UE engine, and delivered as MWO2. However, most people do not want to buy mech packs from the start again

Personally I think its a bit of a stretch to expect MWO Player owned assets to be carried over into a new game.

Most games don't carry stuff over from one game to the next.
Sure you may need those golden pantaloons or get a quest or weapon.

But for your entire inventory to carry over to the next game?
So the mech pack thing could work still
I'd work better for something with more polish than MWO and MW5 doh
For the same ole unpolished, uncut gem with potential, abused and neglected...
...Not too sure, but you noe stockhome syndrome.

Plus I'm to old to get sweaty with some non vehicular FPS
Maybe Star Citizen once its more stable

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 16 November 2020 - 12:37 AM.

[Anjian]

OZHomerOZ, on 16 November 2020 - 12:34 AM, said:

Personally I think its a bit of a stretch to expect MWO Player owned assets to be carried over into a new game.

Most games don't carry stuff over from one game to the next.
Sure you may need those golden pantaloons or get a quest or weapon.

But for your entire inventory to carry over to the next game?
So the mech pack thing could work still
I'd work better for something with more polish than MWO and MW5 doh
For the same ole unpolished, uncut gem with potential, abused and neglected...
...Not too sure, but you noe stockhome syndrome.

Plus I'm to old to get sweaty with some non vehicular FPS
Maybe Star Citizen once its more stable

There has been some precedents for remakes or graphic engine overhauls where existing assets are carried over to the refitted game.

The best precedent I know is EVE Online where many years ago, there was a dramatic overhaul in the graphics engine. This is a game that started in May 3, 2003 and still going on strong today.

Another precedent is World of Tanks. Again, the old game has been running over some years, and then a major graphics overhaul, and all assets are reported to the refitted game.

Next precedent which only took place recently was the War Robots remake. The mobile game looks a lot more PC like now.

Next year you are going to have a new precedent, where assets from PSO2, aka Phantasy Star Online 2, is going to be synced to a brand name game called Phantasy Star New Genesis. This means character design, weapons, armor units, skins and so on. What will be changed however, is the character and weapons stats, they won't be ported over. The new game will be rebalanced and will have new stats. Whatever purchase you made in New Genesis, and what purchases with PSO2 will continue to sync and resync with each other.

What's happening with PS New Genesis blows my mind. Actually, there has been some precedent with this on Pokemon games where assets you captured from one game is passed to another game.

What makes New Genesis the most interesting is that PSO2 itself was introduced in 2012, and it is already 8 years old by now, and still thriving. That's about as long as MWO is. PSO2 is also old and is in need of a dramatic overhaul.

[Anjian]

To apply what I mentioned from PS New Genesis to a MWO1 -> MWO2 model, your account will be synced. Mechs and skins will be transferred from the old game to the new. However, levels and stats will not. The new game will have its own set of stats, and you have to level your mechs once again for the new game. That means grinding or paying to speed up the grind, like introducing a Battle Pass system.

Having a kind of a Master Account means you can potentially have a family of MW/BT franchise games, where you can interchangeably sync and share the same assets but require independent leveling on each game. What won't sync back or interchangeably sync are game specific assets.

Edited by Anjian, 16 November 2020 - 01:27 AM.

[General Solo]

Sure but its not exactly common
Eve well thats like Huge, you can afford to be generous when your that big, but can a smallish indie studio?

And Russ will be thinking, Whats in it for me sorry!
I need coin for a bigger boat and meds for the headache the playerbase gives me! lol

As for grinding...
If the games good and fun you don't notice it. imo

PGI's problem is they built a thing but then are like "good enough", minimal viable
They think they are smart to do this, saving money

When in reality that unoptimized and unpolished thing is not earning its maximum potential monetization return due to being "good enough" instead of "polished".

So that savings is really a cost, just hard to see.

You already made the thing, map for example, polish it till its shiney
You already made the thing, matchmaker for example, polish it till its shiney
You already made the thing, netcode for example, polish it till its shiney

You already made the thing, mechs for example, they are pretty polished not perfect but compare to other things, polished.

Imo you sell more mech's if more than just the mechs are polished.

[Anjian]

OZHomerOZ, on 16 November 2020 - 01:40 AM, said:

Sure but its not exactly common
Eve well thats like Huge, you can afford to be generous when your that big, but can a smallish indie studio?

And Russ will be thinking, Whats in it for me sorry!
I need coin for a bigger boat and meds for the headache the playerbase gives me! lol

As for grinding...
If the games good and fun you don't notice it. imo

PGI's problem is they built a thing but then are like "good enough", minimal viable
They think they are smart to do this, saving money

When in reality that unoptimized and unpolished thing is not earning its maximum potential monetization return due to being "good enough" instead of "polished".

So that savings is really a cost, just hard to see.

You already made the thing, map for example, polish it till its shiney
You already made the thing, matchmaker for example, polish it till its shiney
You already made the thing, netcode for example, polish it till its shiney

You already made the thing, mechs for example, they are pretty polished not perfect but compare to other things, polished.

Imo you sell more mech's if more than just the mechs are polished.

EVE was small, and CCP used to be a small company. I still remember the time when only 3000 to 4000 people logged into it simultaneously. It was small and grew. Today CCP is owned by Pearl Abyss, a company that used to be small, till it hit it big with Black Desert Online.

Best hope for electronic BT franchise is to sell it to Paradox Interactive, including MWO and so on, and give it to another development studio. At least Paradox Interactive is a veteran in the business, they already bought up HBS and they run the successful Stellaris.

The way this game looks and feels, it is not competitive with the latest offerings in PC and console today. It is not minimal viable. At its state, its below viable.

If you are dealing with spaghetti code, you should be like Alexander the Great when dealing with the unsolvable Gordian knot. He takes his sword and cuts it through. You should not support legacy garbage, just write clean code from scratch and replace the legacy garbage.