199 replies to this topic

[jss78]

On the whole "adhere to tabletop" vs. "redesign from scratch" topic I'd draw inspiration from HBS's BattleTech.

They were not afraid to revamp and simplify mechanics -- even with grandad Weisman on board as a designer. They made something new, yet something that's unmistakably BattleTech. There are countless stories of the game being discovered people entirely new to the franchise, who find the game complex but not overwhelming, and find the universe fascinating.

That's a balance you want to strike.

If MWO and possible future iterations retain the present level of (unnecessary) complexity, you're basically fighting to retain some subset of that old-school community. I don't see a recipe for success here -- not when the community is so old that some people are literally dying of afflictions commonly related to old age. The game needs to be approachable for any 20-year-old who's receptive to relatively challenging gameplay.

[Anjian]

The problem of 20 year olds is that they don't have that much money.

Once upon a time, there was a guy who dreamed of making games for middle aged people. So games need to be less reflex based, more thought based, and he knew middle aged people have the most money to spend. Today, his idea became that company called Wargaming.net, and the game World of Tanks.

[Gagis]

jss78, on 16 November 2020 - 03:14 AM, said:

They were not afraid to revamp and simplify mechanics -- even with grandad Weisman on board as a designer. They made something new, yet something that's unmistakably BattleTech. There are countless stories of the game being discovered people entirely new to the franchise, who find the game complex but not overwhelming, and find the universe fascinating.

We actually incorporated some of the HBSTech changes into our tabletop RPG campaign. We use their damage scale for autocannons since it makes just infinitely more sense than the original.

[jss78]

Anjian, on 16 November 2020 - 03:31 AM, said:

The problem of 20 year olds is that they don't have that much money.

Once upon a time, there was a guy who dreamed of making games for middle aged people. So games need to be less reflex based, more thought based, and he knew middle aged people have the most money to spend. Today, his idea became that company called Wargaming.net, and the game World of Tanks.

You make a good point. By mentioning the 20-year-olds I didn't mean they should be the cornerstone of the community. But I think for the health of the franchise we could use a game that's more accessible to someone without prior background with BT/MW. Perhaps a little flatter age distribution, including more younger people along with us old, grey-bearded whales.

(BTW if World of Tanks has a middle-aged player base, then I'm shocked. Because it's a toxic, juvenile cesspool that makes me appreciate MWO even more, every time I play it.)

Edited by jss78, 16 November 2020 - 10:05 AM.

[General Solo]

Anjian, on 16 November 2020 - 02:42 AM, said:

EVE was small, and CCP used to be a small company. I still remember the time when only 3000 to 4000 people logged into it simultaneously. It was small and grew. Today CCP is owned by Pearl Abyss, a company that used to be small, till it hit it big with Black Desert Online.

Best hope for electronic BT franchise is to sell it to Paradox Interactive, including MWO and so on, and give it to another development studio. At least Paradox Interactive is a veteran in the business, they already bought up HBS and they run the successful Stellaris.

The way this game looks and feels, it is not competitive with the latest offerings in PC and console today. It is not minimal viable. At its state, its below viable.

If you are dealing with spaghetti code, you should be like Alexander the Great when dealing with the unsolvable Gordian knot. He takes his sword and cuts it through. You should not support legacy garbage, just write clean code from scratch and replace the legacy garbage.

Regarding spaghetti code, yes a new engine MAY help
BTW Lumberyard is free and royalty free, but I'm no lawyer , so would have to look into it more closer.
Based on crytek, so port MAY be easier.

Spaghetti code may return anyway with a new engine due to not very well thought out game/client requirements, just like MWO, Remember 90 Days TradeMark.

Could be cheaper IMO to and better to hire a 1 in 10 programming engineer (Tier1) for a short while to find/expose and document the systems requiring work like match maker. And get them to build more widgets for said systems so PGI non technical staff like Paul can interface with he system.

Yes it will cost coin, either way, just got to use the one with the better effort to benefit ratio.

Will a new game or engine satisfy?
I mean they made a new game not long ago, MW5

So I think it better to polish what they got, players get a better game and PGI learns how to polish a game, and include polish as part of their corporate culture.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 16 November 2020 - 02:22 PM.

[Nightbird]

It's hard to know which would be more expense, porting MWO to UE or to lumberyard. We do know that PGI has UE devs in house and no cryengine/lumberyard devs.

[Alreech]

Nightbird, on 09 November 2020 - 11:20 AM, said:

I have my own thoughts on how to successfully fund MWO2, but what do you all think PGI should/will do?

1: port Mechwarrior 5 to the new consoles to get new customers
2: Story driven DLCs with new Mechs (Clan Mechs, Civil War Mechs,...): Remake of the campaigns of Mechwarrior 2, 3 & 4
3: free to play online mode for Mechwarrior 5:
1 vs 1 & 2 vs 2 Solaris, no respawns, small maps
4 player COOP campaign / or quickplay with bots (now in Mechwarrior 5)
4 player faction play: join a faction, matchmaker creates 4 vs 4, 8 vs 8, 12 vs 12 matches depending on the population. small 3 Mech dropdeck, 15 minutes time limit, always clear attacker / defender roles & objectives.

Monetisation:
Single Player DLCs
Mech Packs for faction play (pay to avoid grind)
Microtransactions for cosmetics.

[Anjian]

jss78, on 16 November 2020 - 10:05 AM, said:

You make a good point. By mentioning the 20-year-olds I didn't mean they should be the cornerstone of the community. But I think for the health of the franchise we could use a game that's more accessible to someone without prior background with BT/MW. Perhaps a little flatter age distribution, including more younger people along with us old, grey-bearded whales.

Which is true.

Still, don't expect much whales from younger people unless they're using Daddy's credit card.

Quote

(BTW if World of Tanks has a middle-aged player base, then I'm shocked. Because it's a toxic, juvenile cesspool that makes me appreciate MWO even more, every time I play it.)

Older people entering second childhood.

[Anjian]

OZHomerOZ, on 16 November 2020 - 02:21 PM, said:

Regarding spaghetti code, yes a new engine MAY help
BTW Lumberyard is free and royalty free, but I'm no lawyer , so would have to look into it more closer.
Based on crytek, so port MAY be easier.

Spaghetti code may return anyway with a new engine due to not very well thought out game/client requirements, just like MWO, Remember 90 Days TradeMark.

Could be cheaper IMO to and better to hire a 1 in 10 programming engineer (Tier1) for a short while to find/expose and document the systems requiring work like match maker. And get them to build more widgets for said systems so PGI non technical staff like Paul can interface with he system.

Yes it will cost coin, either way, just got to use the one with the better effort to benefit ratio.

Will a new game or engine satisfy?
I mean they made a new game not long ago, MW5

So I think it better to polish what they got, players get a better game and PGI learns how to polish a game, and include polish as part of their corporate culture.

I kind of doubt that MW5 has made enough money for continued funding of either game in order to do all that it takes.

The game also has very little appeal to anyone who doesn't know or care about BT, which is practically everyone.

There are also too many good games out there and many people shift genre to genre looking for a good game, which makes it possible for one game of a different genre to suck players from a game of another genre.

The bar for a good game keeps getting higher and higher, and this means you need better and better talent in making the game, not just for coding, but also for artists, to script writers, to the music, down to the actors dubbing the scenes.

The whole idea that all you need is a minimal viable product with that franchise behind is you is all that will take to rake in the players and the moolah, is now a flawed concept, as the bar keeps getting higher and higher.

We have come to the realization that you really need to make a very good game, because very good games are disrupting an industry that is full of mediocre games, and the player market is becoming increasingly aware of that, with an ever rising bar for quality as time goes by.

[The6thMessenger]

Nightbird, on 16 November 2020 - 02:25 PM, said:

It's hard to know which would be more expense, porting MWO to UE or to lumberyard. We do know that PGI has UE devs in house and no cryengine/lumberyard devs.

THIS!

MWO has no future in CryEngine.

PGI is incompetent, can barely code CryEngine. But with MW5, they shown that they could do the things they wish they could have in Cry-Engine. Modders in MW5 have Ammo-Switching, Crit-Splitting, they just need to take a look on how they did it and implement it.

[ingramli]

I don't want a MWO2 as long as PGI is still the PGI we are familiar of. It will just be same shxt, different day.

Edited by ingramli, 16 November 2020 - 06:41 PM.

[General Solo]

Agreed unless PGi learn from their mistakes and show some class and bring the polish
eventually Star Citizen will be stable
Praise be 30K

Message to PGI
I know that games devs read those forums and if whales ask and are prepared to pay for it Chris Roberts and Co will build it unless it screws the rest of the playerbase that is.

Thoughtful, methodical, cant make me your {Dezgra} wid a few drinks, no comprises within the scope.
That's scalable to a small studio I thinkz.


And the scope, make sure your but can cash it, so speak wid care and thought and patience and not over promise, expectation management and dat, should be better at by now me hopes

Now I know PGI are much smaller

But the point is that, it must be guid, polished

The smaller the studio the more important those little details are since you have less to work with due to the scale of a smaller studio's like PGI's enterprise capabilities.

Not too big too fail must use smarts and be brilliant and cunning, no choice in todays market or be a dinoe.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 17 November 2020 - 12:42 AM.

[MechLord71]

I would support and even rebuy my mechs if a more competent company gets the license...PGI is out developed by the mod community. New company is required for MWO. PGI, sadly, is not up to the task. They created something that is okay, but fails to live up to MW potential.

[Tom Sawyer]

Hmm biggest barrier? How about worse case lol

EA buys PGI and slips Microsoft some cash for the battletech license. 10 bucks gets you 500 rounds of special laser juice ammo. Or you can get 1000 headshots and get a small crate of laser juice. Might contain 5 to 25 rounds of special laser juice.

PGI is incompetent but when it comes to evil and destroying legacies EA is a Sith Ewok with hemorrhoids.

[Y E O N N E]

Anjian, on 15 November 2020 - 11:16 PM, said:

Like I already said, its not your game.

It does not mean there are not hundreds of thousands to millions playing these games because, well there are.

It is what it is.

No one is going to make a game that only say, ten to fifty thousand players will play and expect an average of $15 per month per user and expect to get AAA rated quality out of it.

Waiter, reality check please.

Reality check yourself. You point to several games that do not play like this one does and expect that to make some sort of point and all you've succeeded at doing is presenting yourself as a block that makes a chunk of uranium look positively buoyant when placed in a bathtub filled with water.

Because you are too slow to think for yourself, I shall do it for you:

There is more than one single attraction to MWO beyond the IP it is attached to, and the one that keeps me here is not replicated elsewhere. No, BoT does not replicate MWO; I looked into it when you last suggested it a couple years ago. It is not possible to water it down into just another anything because there is no other game that plays like it does.

Now sit.

[Anjian]

Miss Greene, on 17 November 2020 - 06:21 PM, said:

Reality check yourself. You point to several games that do not play like this one does and expect that to make some sort of point and all you've succeeded at doing is presenting yourself as a block that makes a chunk of uranium look positively buoyant when placed in a bathtub filled with water.

Because you are too slow to think for yourself, I shall do it for you:

There is more than one single attraction to MWO beyond the IP it is attached to, and the one that keeps me here is not replicated elsewhere. No, BoT does not replicate MWO; I looked into it when you last suggested it a couple years ago. It is not possible to water it down into just another anything because there is no other game that plays like it does.

Now sit.

Go think well beyond yourself. Your preference to this game isn't going to save it. Clue: I don't give a sh*t what you like. I give a sh*t what others in the tens, or hundreds of thousands do.

Yeah no other PVP game or even other mech games feature NASCAR, high frequency of stomps, and murderballs as a feature --- and I tried as many vehicular based PVP games as I can. Maybe for you its your game, but I also do try to bring players of other mech games to try MWO, and the response has been meh, spit a whole bunch of various reasons, and they go back to playing whatever they are playing.

Edited by Anjian, 17 November 2020 - 07:02 PM.

[Anjian]

MechLord71, on 17 November 2020 - 10:03 AM, said:

I would support and even rebuy my mechs if a more competent company gets the license...PGI is out developed by the mod community. New company is required for MWO. PGI, sadly, is not up to the task. They created something that is okay, but fails to live up to MW potential.

You have a company that hates its player base, and a player base that hates its company. Its a toxic relationship, and the ending is obvious and has been for years.

Can you imagine any company or corporation outside of the gaming world, that has a toxic relationship with its customer or user base, and the base has a toxic relationship with that company? Yet somehow manage to survive?

Edited by Anjian, 17 November 2020 - 07:18 PM.

[Anjian]

Tom Sawyer, on 17 November 2020 - 11:56 AM, said:

Hmm biggest barrier? How about worse case lol

EA buys PGI and slips Microsoft some cash for the battletech license. 10 bucks gets you 500 rounds of special laser juice ammo. Or you can get 1000 headshots and get a small crate of laser juice. Might contain 5 to 25 rounds of special laser juice.

PGI is incompetent but when it comes to evil and destroying legacies EA is a Sith Ewok with hemorrhoids.

On one hand the game might end up as Triple A rating game. Then they will put mechs and weapons in a loot box for you to gachapon on.

EA will never buy this game or IP because $$$ is only what they can think of. That company is full of corporate suits who are professionally trained to get as much bang from the buck, which means cutting staff, cutting features, overworking the rest of what remain, then publish a product for $60, not counting the thousands you spend on loot boxes, for a beautiful well crafted game that will only last you a day or two of in story content. At the end game, you then play the game as a service, and spend an obscene amount of money on gacha or loot boxes.

Edited by Anjian, 17 November 2020 - 07:19 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Alreech, on 16 November 2020 - 02:40 PM, said:

1: port Mechwarrior 5 to the new consoles to get new customers
2: Story driven DLCs with new Mechs (Clan Mechs, Civil War Mechs,...): Remake of the campaigns of Mechwarrior 2, 3 & 4
3: free to play online mode for Mechwarrior 5:
1 vs 1 & 2 vs 2 Solaris, no respawns, small maps
4 player COOP campaign / or quickplay with bots (now in Mechwarrior 5)
4 player faction play: join a faction, matchmaker creates 4 vs 4, 8 vs 8, 12 vs 12 matches depending on the population. small 3 Mech dropdeck, 15 minutes time limit, always clear attacker / defender roles & objectives.

Monetisation:
Single Player DLCs
Mech Packs for faction play (pay to avoid grind)
Microtransactions for cosmetics.

and we will you porting all the Functions from the Keyboard to a Controller? and crossplay ? oh graet im seeing the War between K/M and Controller player

[Anjian]

MW Waldorf Statler, on 17 November 2020 - 07:35 PM, said:

and we will you porting all the Functions from the Keyboard to a Controller? and crossplay ? oh graet im seeing the War between K/M and Controller player

There are a bunch of games that has managed successfully to porting the jungle of key commands from keyboard to a controller. The most notorious of these games are MMOs with both PC and console versions --- Star Trek Online, Final Fantasy 14 whatever version they are on now; Elite Dangerous, Phantasy Star Online 2, War Thunder, World of Warship Legends, among others.

You can create a huge variety of combinations by simultaneously using any two of the buttons of the controller. For example, pressing L1 produces a wheel of selections, then you wheel through it with one of your joysticks.

My impressions:

It works.
It can be done.
The more key functions, the less efficient and mind boggling it gets.
Requires a bit of a learning and habit forming curve to make it instinctive.

Edited by Anjian, 17 November 2020 - 08:34 PM.