690 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

C337Skymaster, on 27 May 2021 - 08:07 PM, said:

So the main difference between the Clans (post Klondike)...

Everything that happened prior to KLONDIKE would have already reduced the Pentagon Worlds into an approximate representation of the Successor States, and the Kerensky Cluster is canonically desolate. Not buying any of that, the entire Clan storyline as-written is simply self-fellating junk. Space Goody-Two-Shoes taking his toys with him out of the sandbox instead of pragmatically aligning with the least bad successor state to truncate the coming conflicts? And then having a son who goes full Godwin's Law? Pretty cringe.

Superior writing would have Amaris fleeing to the Pentagon Worlds at the end of the Civil War and Kerensky taking a contingent with him to hunt him down, with the Clans being descendants of the two factions after they had ground each other down to the point that the combat was now just ritualistic tradition and the original reason for it is a faded memory twisted into myths and legends.

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This makes a lot of sense, and fits with a lot of the general "airs" put on about Omnimechs in the books. They generally give the impression that their overall electronic systems are "better" in that they're faster, more accurate, more precise, or something to that effect. Maybe kinda like the difference between this Alienware R1 (R5) laptop that I'm using now, and the Inspiron 9400 that it replaced 6 years ago. They both work, but one works faster because it's got better circuitry. Definitely hard to quantify on the multi-ton level.

Eh, I would not call that a good analogy. Although the R1 is faster, it's not significantly more flexible in utility than the Inspiron 9400. A better analogy would be having separate devices for playing music, placing a telephone call, and taking a photograph, each costing between $50 to $100, versus having a single $1000 device that can do all three and more. The speed and accuracy has little to do with it; if my camera is using the same sensor as the smartphone and the imaging software is just as good, then the camera will be just as good at taking photos as the smartphone. This has benefits, because if all I need is something that can take pictures then I can get it for a huge savings. Or I can get a better camera than the smartphone for the same cost as the smartphone. That's the logic where a BattleMech and its computer make sense.

That said, if you've already invested in a standardized ecosystem, there are economies of scale to be leveraged and a BattleMech is sophisticated enough that even a low-end one would have ridiculously capable computer hardware, so it's all in the software that the OmniMech magic happens and software is cheap long-term. So once you've got the Omni computer software developed, you'd just deploy that and only that and stick it in everything to amortize the development costs across as many units as possible. Even the IS would have realistically implemented something like this before, during, and after the Amaris Civil War and no amount of Comstar mucking about would have prevented it because it's basic economic sense.

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That was sort of my point, but going the other way: it took that long to calibrate a relatively simple electronic device, it would conceivably be harder and MORE time consuming to calibrate even more sophisticated pieces of electronics due to the multiple different parameters that all influence each other.

You would write routines that take care of the calibration automatically. It would be part of your Omni spec. The KC-135 is simple because there is no system in place to automate the task you are describing, not because the task itself is simple. The operator is the control system, there, rather than a machine. Having such systems in place is what makes the OmniMech computer what it is. It takes longer to add such systems, but it's sort of a one-time thing.

A BattleMech, being intended for a much narrower application, is the one that will need a lot of time with the tech to even get it working because the code and the power feeds and the mounts are all probably not designed to work with your mod. And you have to dive in for every single mod. But not for things like walking with different equipment, that shouldn't require anything because the navigation systems should already be designed to compensate for various forces acting on the 'Mech or else it wouldn't work at all. We're talking about things like simply getting fire control to work with the new gun and its feed mechanism or re-cabling the power system and modifying the power management software because that new PPC addition needs more power in a place that wasn't originally intended to receive it.

[Alreech]

C337Skymaster, on 27 May 2021 - 08:07 PM, said:

It's kinda like the Dark Ages from 500-1300 here on Terra. The Europeans lost pretty much all knowledge of how to do anything except raise stick houses with thatched roofs, and plow farm fields. All the history and influence of the Romans was lost during that time. Over in the Middle East, however, the Byzantines and the Arabs didn't suffer any such collapse of civilization, and retained all the scientific and technological knowledge that had been gained to that point in time, and it was actually thanks to the Crusades, and the interaction of Europeans with Arabs, that the Europeans relearned a LOT of what had been forgotten in the intervening centuries.

That's a legend, no knowlege / history was lost during the darks ages in Europe. It was maybe not longer usefull.
First of all Europe north of the Alps was not the center of the Roman civilisation.
That was Rome and the cities in Italy, Spain, northern Africa, Greek and Asia Minor. The romans living in Italy didn't woke up one morning in 500 a.d. and have hat lost all their history and knowledge.

Second norther Europe traded with Italy and Byzanz, even married into Imperial Houses. Nobles, monks and merchants travelled between north europe and byzantine cities.
Frankish, Saxon and other germanic Kings tried to get crowned by the Pope as Imperator and Ceasar of the Roman Empire because due history it was still important as legatimation to rule over Italy and Europe (and the remaining Romans).

Third the invasion of fanatic desert tribes into north Africa and Spain cut off trade routes and increased Piracy and raiding partys into Italy & France. Those desert tribes were never a part of the Roman civilisation, but they ruled over former Roman Cities.
After centuries of occupation the roman civilisation vanquished in northern africa, while the germanic kingdoms in Europe became more (west-frankish, visigothic) or less (east-frankish, alemanic, saxon,...) romanised.
It was northern africa that lost roman knowlege after the roman language and the the roman religion was replaced by the language and the religion of the invaders.

What happend in Europe was a dramatic collapse of society / large scale goverment that made much things impossible.
If you can't finance building a new aqueduct or stadion and you don't need one because populations shrinked the "lose of knowleged" isn't the problem.
Who builds a villa with heated floor in souther france or germany, if raiders tread them?
If you are a mason with knowlege how to build that you still can also build city walls and fortifications.

And to get not totally off topic:
The same happend in the Lore of Battletech. The succesor states knew that Endo Steel or Ferror Fibrous was, but they were not able to produce them due the destruction of orbital facilites and other industries to produce them.
And even if they have been able, from a ecconomic / strategic point of view producing more of low tech armor & structure would be better (and the factories easier to protect).
It was the large scale peace after the 4th Succesion War that allowed to build up the needed eccomic base for Star League tech.

[C337Skymaster]

Alreech, on 28 May 2021 - 03:08 AM, said:

That's a legend, no knowlege / history was lost during the darks ages in Europe. It was maybe not longer usefull.
First of all Europe north of the Alps was not the center of the Roman civilisation.
That was Rome and the cities in Italy, Spain, northern Africa, Greek and Asia Minor. The romans living in Italy didn't woke up one morning in 500 a.d. and have hat lost all their history and knowledge.

Second norther Europe traded with Italy and Byzanz, even married into Imperial Houses. Nobles, monks and merchants travelled between north europe and byzantine cities.
Frankish, Saxon and other germanic Kings tried to get crowned by the Pope as Imperator and Ceasar of the Roman Empire because due history it was still important as legatimation to rule over Italy and Europe (and the remaining Romans).

Third the invasion of fanatic desert tribes into north Africa and Spain cut off trade routes and increased Piracy and raiding partys into Italy & France. Those desert tribes were never a part of the Roman civilisation, but they ruled over former Roman Cities.
After centuries of occupation the roman civilisation vanquished in northern africa, while the germanic kingdoms in Europe became more (west-frankish, visigothic) or less (east-frankish, alemanic, saxon,...) romanised.
It was northern africa that lost roman knowlege after the roman language and the the roman religion was replaced by the language and the religion of the invaders.

What happend in Europe was a dramatic collapse of society / large scale goverment that made much things impossible.
If you can't finance building a new aqueduct or stadion and you don't need one because populations shrinked the "lose of knowleged" isn't the problem.
Who builds a villa with heated floor in souther france or germany, if raiders tread them?
If you are a mason with knowlege how to build that you still can also build city walls and fortifications.

And to get not totally off topic:
The same happend in the Lore of Battletech. The succesor states knew that Endo Steel or Ferror Fibrous was, but they were not able to produce them due the destruction of orbital facilites and other industries to produce them.
And even if they have been able, from a ecconomic / strategic point of view producing more of low tech armor & structure would be better (and the factories easier to protect).
It was the large scale peace after the 4th Succesion War that allowed to build up the needed eccomic base for Star League tech.

That's not entirely true, though. Our alphabet is Latin, but our numerical system is Arabic. Most of the scientific knowledge of the Romans, most of your academic knowledge that doesn't directly apply to day-to-day living, was lost in Europe, but retained in other, less devastated areas of the planet. This is evidenced in the legends of old Libraries that were destroyed over the centuries, either accidentally or on purpose, and the treasure-troves of knowledge they supposedly contained that have been lost to time. For all we know, we've relearned everything that was in there, but we can never be sure.

In Battletech, not only were the factories destroyed, but the knowledge about how to rebuild them was lost, because all of the documented records were either destroyed, or captured and hoarded out of sight by ComStar. It didn't matter how much economic booming the Successor States were able to do in the peace after the 4th Succession War. If The Grey Death Legion hadn't discovered the Star League Memory Core on Helm and then disseminated that data to the scientists of the great houses, they would have had to start from scratch in determining how to make double-strength heat sinks, or half-weight structure and engines, or pulse lasers, or lighter autocannons which can use fragmenting ammo, etc. There was actually some progress in that area, particularly with regards to Double Heat Sinks: they were using ones with highly corrosive coolant that were almost more of a liability than an asset, and I think that was already around the Fourth Succession War, either before, or right at the beginning, of this "long peace" you mention. Not only did the Clans NOT lose any of that knowledge, but they were able to continuously improve upon it for three hundred years, and managed to redesign them so that they'd be much more compact and take up less physical space for the same weight.

[Y E O N N E]

C337Skymaster, on 28 May 2021 - 05:58 AM, said:

Not only did the Clans NOT lose any of that knowledge, but they were able to continuously improve upon it for three hundred years, and managed to redesign them so that they'd be much more compact and take up less physical space for the same weight.

And yet the IS was apparently never able to replicate the Clan Tech even 100 years after it showed up and having thousands of salvage or bought examples to reverse-engineer and no ComStar slowing them down.

And half of the advanced IS tech are obvious, common-sense solutions that are so simple ComStar never would have been able to stop them, i.e. HVACs. It doesn't take a genius to realize more powder + longer barrel = faster bullet with better accuracy. Those should have existed simultaneously with the invention of the AC. Ditto Rotaries, which are just big Gatling guns. And UACs, which is...actually these shouldn't exist because they must be mechanically identical to an AC if you think about how this stuff would have to work. I can go on...

[Bowelhacker]

C337Skymaster, on 28 May 2021 - 05:58 AM, said:

That's not entirely true, though. Our alphabet is Latin, but our numerical system is Arabic.

Or the Hindu-Arabic numeral system, if you want to use its full name. Since they were developed in India first.

[C337Skymaster]

Bowelhacker, on 28 May 2021 - 03:20 PM, said:

Or the Hindu-Arabic numeral system, if you want to use its full name. Since they were developed in India first.

See, these are the things my teachers never taught me that it would be good to know.

Y E O N N E, on 28 May 2021 - 11:59 AM, said:

And yet the IS was apparently never able to replicate the Clan Tech even 100 years after it showed up and having thousands of salvage or bought examples to reverse-engineer and no ComStar slowing them down.

And half of the advanced IS tech are obvious, common-sense solutions that are so simple ComStar never would have been able to stop them, i.e. HVACs. It doesn't take a genius to realize more powder + longer barrel = faster bullet with better accuracy. Those should have existed simultaneously with the invention of the AC. Ditto Rotaries, which are just big Gatling guns. And UACs, which is...actually these shouldn't exist because they must be mechanically identical to an AC if you think about how this stuff would have to work. I can go on...

I mean, given the scale on which you're working, some things scale up easier than others. HVACs, I'll grant you, provided the materials for the breech could handle the added pressure. (Barrel explosions were unfortunately common, or seem like it when they're the only thing you read about, during the development of Cannons)

UAC/s are simply AC/s that fire twice as fast. What that actually looks like, in practice, probably varies from brand to brand. Ultimately, though, reload rate is one of those things that weapons manufacturers are constantly trying to improve upon, but are limited by the size of the shot, the amount of powder needed to propel it, and any time required for the barrel to cool down so it doesn't instantly light off the next load of powder. We had Gatling guns during the Civil War, which could fire 60 or 80 rounds per minute (possibly more, I'm making that number up based on seeing them depicted in movies), and yet the USS Iowa could barely manage one shot per minute (probably less) on its main battery. Technology had improved a LOT to get to the point where we've got 16" main guns firing shots over 25 miles, but the materials sciences simply aren't there to turn that kind of gun into a rotary cannon.

(Though could you imagine a 16" rotary cannon?! Holy crap!!)

[C337Skymaster]

So what are the chances of ever getting even MW4-style hitboxes? I've been trying to play the Prime Mad Cat (TBR), and the bunny ears are proving their weakness on repeat. I'm losing side-torsos from cover from snipers over 1000 m away, with all types of weapons (Racs, lasers, gauss, you name it, they're hitting the ears).

I know in the case of some 'mechs, such segments are being completely excluded from the hitbox, although I feel that's unfair, as well: if a pilot can see a component, they SHOULD be able to shoot it, but if it's something that sticks way up or out like that, the damage should be restricted to that weapon system or systems.

BAS-Ears
BSW-Missile Pods
TBR-Ears
MAD-Gun Pod
EBJ-Ears
HBR/SMN-Missile Pod
MAL-Ears

Etc.

The Timber Wolves are all meant to be in-your face, direct-fire combatants, even those with LRMs are meant to use them in a direct-fire capacity (hence a very low ammo count), but with those giant ears preceding the 'mech everywhere, it is forced to hide in deep cover and rely solely on the LRMs, because as soon as it pokes up to direct-fire with ANYTHING, the ears attract 99% of incoming fire, and the 'mech is quickly disabled.

Either that, or we get rid of pinpoint fire (no more convergence!), which I'd honestly prefer, as it mitigates issues with a lot more hitboxes than those listed above.

[Alreech]

C337Skymaster, on 28 May 2021 - 05:58 AM, said:

That's not entirely true, though. Our alphabet is Latin, but our numerical system is Arabic.

And English, the contemporary Lingua Franca is a Germanic language, so what. The ancient Greeks & Romans used their own numerical system to do math (and they did it very well) so how was the Indian/Arab numeral system needed to preserve roman/greek knowledge?

Quote

Most of the scientific knowledge of the Romans, most of your academic knowledge that doesn't directly apply to day-to-day living, was lost in Europe, but retained in other, less devastated areas of the planet.

You mean other, less devastated areas like Italy and the City of Rome, center of the catholic church, seat of the Vatican and it’s archives and the numerous other cities in Italy (Milano, Verona, Ravenna, Venezia,...), were people continuous lived since 1500+ years that could read and understand Latin texts (and catholic liturgy) without much effort?
Yeah, that's totally not Europe...

Funny thing: Solsystem under Comstars control is something like Italy.
FASA has stolen borrowed many ideas from Asimovs Foundation Trilogy, and Asimovs was inspired by a 1776 published book:
The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbson.

Quote

In Battletech, not only were the factories destroyed, but the knowledge about how to rebuild them was lost, because all of the documented records were either destroyed, or captured and hoarded out of sight by ComStar.

Comstar hoarding knowledge while pretending to be a religious order comes directly from Asimovs Foundations "Church of Science".

But to be fair, FASAs Comstar and it's origins are IMHO much better done.

[Alreech]

C337Skymaster, on 02 June 2021 - 02:55 AM, said:

So what are the chances of ever getting even MW4-style hitboxes? I've been trying to play the Prime Mad Cat (TBR), and the bunny ears are proving their weakness on repeat. I'm losing side-torsos from cover from snipers over 1000 m away, with all types of weapons (Racs, lasers, gauss, you name it, they're hitting the ears).

I know in the case of some 'mechs, such segments are being completely excluded from the hitbox, although I feel that's unfair, as well: if a pilot can see a component, they SHOULD be able to shoot it, but if it's something that sticks way up or out like that, the damage should be restricted to that weapon system or systems.
...

Either that, or we get rid of pinpoint fire (no more convergence!), which I'd honestly prefer, as it mitigates issues with a lot more hitboxes than those listed above.

That would afford a new hitbox design, and to get rid of PGIs idea to do a 1:1 conversion of the Boardgame the Fans wanted.
Same with the convergence.

Pinpoint damage would be less a problem it weapon accuracy would be affected by player movement, target lock, heat level & sensor/actuator damage, but Mechwarrior Fans don't want that because it's to close to the random accuracy of Arena shooters like Call of Duty, Battlefield and Arma.
The Mechwarrior Fan wants a skill based shooter were all shoots hit the place they target with their mouse - like in Quake III Arena or Unreal Tournament.

Edited by Alreech, 03 June 2021 - 12:25 AM.

[TheRealKaiAllard]

The Boneshaman, on 18 November 2020 - 04:58 PM, said:

i vote for WOB Celestial series for omni mechs
https://www.sarna.ne...elestial_series
i would love to see XXL, compact engine
compact, XL gyros
PPC capacitors, Plasma weapons, ect. iC3 comps could just give near instant info on targets c3 slave/ masters could do the same but also give a tag ability maybe even help defeat stealth.

Reported for being a dirty Wobbie!

[Burning Chrome]

Ostroc.

MWO: Forums - Mwo Ostroc (mwomercs.com)

Edited by Burning Chrome, 03 June 2021 - 05:10 AM.

[ADI84000]

[color=#959595]i vote for WOB Celestial series for omni mechs[/color]
https://www.sarna.ne...elestial_series
i would love to see XXL, compact engine
compact, XL gyros
PPC capacitors, Plasma weapons, ect. iC3 comps could just give near instant info on targets c3 slave/ masters could do the same but also give a tag ability maybe even help defeat stealth.
Would like to see that to and HAG

[C337Skymaster]

Alreech, on 03 June 2021 - 12:25 AM, said:

That would afford a new hitbox design, and to get rid of PGIs idea to do a 1:1 conversion of the Boardgame the Fans wanted.
Same with the convergence.

Pinpoint damage would be less a problem it weapon accuracy would be affected by player movement, target lock, heat level & sensor/actuator damage, but Mechwarrior Fans don't want that because it's to close to the random accuracy of Arena shooters like Call of Duty, Battlefield and Arma.
The Mechwarrior Fan wants a skill based shooter were all shoots hit the place they target with their mouse - like in Quake III Arena or Unreal Tournament.

But a 1:1 conversion of the boardgame has absolutely no convergence whatsoever. You can have two streak launchers: one will fire, one won't. You can have three lasers on the same arm, one hits the opposite leg, one hits the same side shoulder, and one blows up dirt behind its feet. Nothing about that is convergent. I'm fully aware of the concerns with RNG, which is why, rather than make it random, I just want convergence set at infinity and locked there, so everything shoots straight ahead. With that design, even a Hellbringer with its closely spaced weapons will only get half on one component, and half on the adjacent component.

See, if you get rid of convergence, the weapons will always travel in predictable, consistent paths, which can be learned, applying skill to the game. You simply won't be able to mount a million points of damage all over a 'mech and land every single one on the head of a pin. Alternatives to straight elimination that have been proposed are to slow it down, or limit the angle at which weapons can converge (no more 90 degree shots hitting the invisible wall at 2 m range).

If you solve the convergence problem, then hitboxes become a non-issue, or at least much less of one.

[C337Skymaster]

I agree with the movement modifiers, and the heat modifiers (that should be applied to limit mobility, too: if your heat is above 30% or something (5/30 is 16%, which is a bit harsh), you start to slow down, and have a harder time aiming, which honestly could as easily be affected by slower torso twist, anyway).

I've often wondered why none of that was in the game to begin with, since it HAS been in all of the other MW titles to-date.

While we're on the subject of heat, this "override toggle" is MWO nonsense. When we hit 100%, there should be an interval based on how far over 100% we've gone that decreases as heat goes higher, in which to override the shutdown. When we overheat again, that should again be a manual override. If you hit something like 150% heat (ideally it should be heat capacity + 30 heat, but we can go with 150% or something, instead), the 'mech instantly shuts down kinda like it does now. At 101% heat, you might have a full 5 or 10 seconds to hit override before the 'mech stops responding.

Ammo explosions should similarly be tied to heat level. Currently I think they merely apply "critical damage" while you're hot, but if you're shut down (you failed your override piloting check ), all that heat damage is applied only to the CT, and nothing happens to your ammo if it's mounted elsewhere.

Edited by C337Skymaster, 03 June 2021 - 10:01 AM.

[Daneel Hazen]

Y E O N N E, on 27 May 2021 - 07:28 PM, said:

Even the IS would have 'Mechs competent enough to balance the physical forces acting on it in real-time.

There is nothing about the Clan lore that makes an iota of sense if you really think about it, least of all them somehow having better tech. They have fewer resources and had their own re-enactment of the Succession Wars.

They had a single re-enactment before they were clans, recognized it for what it was and then that was the end of it due to 2nd exodus and steps taken to actually form the Clans themselves. They didn't have an endless series of them and what conflicts did happen were channeled into ritual and minimized all losses while simultaneously testing new equipment types. Instead of destroying factories you would do a small (relative to a massive IS conflict) trial of possession where the factory would change hands without taking any damage. If that were the IS it would have been destroyed which is why over hundreds of years the IS goes backwards and the clans go forward.

Edit - This also doesn't really get into Comstar kind of... actively putting the screws to the IS really attempting to manage its decline as well as secure its own superiority.

Edited by Daneel Hazen, 08 June 2021 - 02:58 AM.

[Spyder Chiken]

I would like to see some of the different LRM ammo types more than most other things. The other things would be Long Toms, Plasma Cannon Bombast lasers.

The most important thing to me is splash damage. We can explode right next to a mech but they feel nothing that makes no sense to me considering that all other mech games have this.

[Y E O N N E]

Daneel Hazen, on 08 June 2021 - 02:34 AM, said:

They had a single re-enactment before they were clans, recognized it for what it was and then that was the end of it due to 2nd exodus and steps taken to actually form the Clans themselves. They didn't have an endless series of them and what conflicts did happen were channeled into ritual and minimized all losses while simultaneously testing new equipment types. Instead of destroying factories you would do a small (relative to a massive IS conflict) trial of possession where the factory would change hands without taking any damage. If that were the IS it would have been destroyed which is why over hundreds of years the IS goes backwards and the clans go forward.

Edit - This also doesn't really get into Comstar kind of... actively putting the screws to the IS really attempting to manage its decline as well as secure its own superiority.

1. There should have been no infrastructure to destroy; the Pentagon Worlds were relatively barren and the colonists had nothing but what they brought with them. I know what the fluff says, and it's just brain-dead writing because 35 years is not enough time to go from getting off the boat to a fully industrialized society capable of sustaining hyper-destructive mechanized warfare...and not collapsing

2. That single re-enactment lasted 20 years; look how much devastation we can cause to a continent in a mere 5 with far cruder implements. Now consider point 1 above, where any amount of protracted conflict will have demolished what meeger civilization they managed to build before conflict broke out.

3. Der Fuhrer had 800 people with him. No way are 800 people coming back to crush the remaining 5,999,200+ people, even if those people had just finished tearing into each other. Nope. Not happening. They are too experienced and still too well-equipped. It's pure fantasy.

4. For the same reasons 800 Clanners can't conquer over 6 million "rebels", CommStar realistically can't ****** the progress of billions. Like I said previously, so many of the "advancements" are "no s**t Sherlock" solutions that the frequency of discovery would outpace the group's ability to suppress them. Plus, it would not have taken hundreds of years for a scheming noble to realize that allying with another house temporarily to kick ComStar's arse would yield amazing benefits all on its own.

TL;DR: you are defending some of the most awful world-building in sci-fi. We're talking "The Rise of Skywalker" levels of bad.

Edit: Really, PGI? Using "re ta rd" in its literal, non-derogatory fashion is something worth putting in the filter? Get dunked.

Edited by Y E O N N E, 09 June 2021 - 06:28 PM.

[KursedVixen]

C337Skymaster, on 02 June 2021 - 02:55 AM, said:

So what are the chances of ever getting even MW4-style hitboxes? I've been trying to play the Prime Mad Cat (TBR), and the bunny ears are proving their weakness on repeat. I'm losing side-torsos from cover from snipers over 1000 m away, with all types of weapons (Racs, lasers, gauss, you name it, they're hitting the ears).

I know in the case of some 'mechs, such segments are being completely excluded from the hitbox, although I feel that's unfair, as well: if a pilot can see a component, they SHOULD be able to shoot it, but if it's something that sticks way up or out like that, the damage should be restricted to that weapon system or systems.

BAS-Ears
BSW-Missile Pods
TBR-Ears
MAD-Gun Pod
EBJ-Ears
HBR/SMN-Missile Pod
MAL-Ears

Etc.

The Timber Wolves are all meant to be in-your face, direct-fire combatants, even those with LRMs are meant to use them in a direct-fire capacity (hence a very low ammo count), but with those giant ears preceding the 'mech everywhere, it is forced to hide in deep cover and rely solely on the LRMs, because as soon as it pokes up to direct-fire with ANYTHING, the ears attract 99% of incoming fire, and the 'mech is quickly disabled.

Either that, or we get rid of pinpoint fire (no more convergence!), which I'd honestly prefer, as it mitigates issues with a lot more hitboxes than those listed above.

alot of mechs would benfit from hitboxes like that and not just the timberwolf but any mech with a separate ear or missile box...

[KursedVixen]

Y E O N N E, on 27 May 2021 - 07:28 PM, said:

There is nothing about the Clan lore that makes an iota of sense if you really think about it, least of all them somehow having better tech. They have fewer resources and had their own re-enactment of the Succession Wars. They kill each other for gains because gains cannot be had any other way. The invasion should have been launched out of desperation for the dwindling resources and what the IS should have encountered would be sketchy, clever modifications of ancient 'Mechs pushed way past their design limits with almost feral pilots using extremely dirty tactics to annihilate their more numerous, more vanilla foes with relative ease.

It makes a lot of sense after Klondike that the former SLDF never lost or destroyed the advanced technology and was able to improve on it.... they likely took a lot of tech and knowledge with them when they left the least of which could even be survival technology. Terraforming, habitats etc.It's a testament to their prowess that the clans were able to even make a living in the desolate worlds they inhabit, and there's always trade and asteroid mining. The very fact that they had less also pushed them to do more with less... It's also stated clearly that clans have a very high distaste in waste.... so they likey found ways to use new materials or even recycle things that the inner sphere can't. When the clans invaded they were thought of as alien beings because of how different they were.

Edited by KursedVixen, 09 June 2021 - 09:19 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

Y E O N N E, on 09 June 2021 - 06:26 PM, said:

1. There should have been no infrastructure to destroy; the Pentagon Worlds were relatively barren and the colonists had nothing but what they brought with them. I know what the fluff says, and it's just brain-dead writing because 35 years is not enough time to go from getting off the boat to a fully industrialized society capable of sustaining hyper-destructive mechanized warfare...and not collapsing

So that is and isn't true. They might be "just off the boat", but they have some super-highly-technological "boats" which enabled them to bring a lot of that industry with them, so rather than have to build it from the ground up, they simply unloaded and unpacked it. Any and all mechanized warfare conducted was literally accomplished with existing equipment and munitions. Nothing new was created. They brought SO much stuff with them, that they had to mothball 90% of it, so there was a lot to draw from. (Remember: the point of the Exodus was to remove as much military equipment and knowledge as possible from the Inner Sphere to hopefully make the subsequent wars less destructive. It's debatable as to whether that made any measurable impact, but accomplishing it would definitely have included collecting as much ammo as possible, and not just the guns to shoot said ammo).

Y E O N N E, on 09 June 2021 - 06:26 PM, said:

2. That single re-enactment lasted 20 years; look how much devastation we can cause to a continent in a mere 5 with far cruder implements. Now consider point 1 above, where any amount of protracted conflict will have demolished what meeger civilization they managed to build before conflict broke out.

So once again: there was a "2nd exodus", and a second isolation of technology, equipment, and society, from the active conflict. Add to that the fact that it seems as though there was only one or two years of all-out conflict that got left behind, with subsequent years dying down to skirmishes and light raiding. You get warlords exerting tyrannical power over an area, because they have access to the mothballed equipment, and it would take too long and/or be too difficult for the oppressed populace to access another cache of equipment to use against the warlord. They could also be tired of open warfare and appreciate a modicum of peace, even at the cost (look at the PATRIOT ACT, for "cost").

Y E O N N E, on 09 June 2021 - 06:26 PM, said:

3. Der Fuhrer had 800 people with him. No way are 800 people coming back to crush the remaining 5,999,200+ people, even if those people had just finished tearing into each other. Nope. Not happening. They are too experienced and still too well-equipped. It's pure fantasy.

So this begins to get into equipment condition: you've got mint equipment vs used and abused equipment. Even when it's the same equipment, if it hasn't been maintained as well, then it's not going to survive combat as well. If you can conceal your numbers, and then bring superior firepower, you can engage in controlled smaller engagements where you can achieve local superiority and eat away at the opposition, piecemeal.

In one giant engagement, us vs them? Certainly, the nascent Clans hadn't a hope in all the worlds. In actuality, they did quite a lot of "divide and conquer", and were bloodied quite badly in a few of those engagements, even at their smaller scale.

Also, Critical Rocket just finished reading the Operation Klondike book onto his YouTube channel, so I just finished listening to it, and the way he described the manning, it sounds like they had 800 "warriors", but quite a few more actual personnel. Considering the division of Castes within the Clans, I would say you should automatically multiply that by 5, and then Hell's Horses use of Tanks was apparently by having only one "warrior" per tank, the rest being "assisting" personnel, so there might have been even more than that? For all I know, the lower castes outnumbered the warriors by several multiples, because the military equipment was a powerful enough force multiplier for a very few warriors to keep control of a large populace. Kinda the same as how life ended up back on the Pentagon Worlds.

Y E O N N E, on 09 June 2021 - 06:26 PM, said:

4. For the same reasons 800 Clanners can't conquer over 6 million "rebels", CommStar realistically can't [restrict] the progress of billions. Like I said previously, so many of the "advancements" are "no s**t Sherlock" solutions that the frequency of discovery would outpace the group's ability to suppress them. Plus, it would not have taken hundreds of years for a scheming noble to realize that allying with another house temporarily to kick ComStar's arse would yield amazing benefits all on its own.

So Comstar has a monopoly on communications, and as much as they're supposed to just send the message and butt out of the contents, you KNOW nobody with that kind of power can ever restrict themselves forever. So they'll be intercepting, delaying, doctoring messages, and have the head-start knowledge to be able to silence whoever might have known the message was different before the intended recipients can respond. Add to that, the fact that after Jerome Blake died, his successor transformed the organization into a quasi-religious mystical organization bent on SEEING the rest of the Inner Sphere descend into a technological dark age from which Comstar was supposed to lead them back to the light, they started actively collecting and isolating advanced technology wherever it showed up again. Any time someone tries to report that they developed something, the message is intercepted and the "new tech" (and probably the scientist, too) just "disappear" without a trace, taken by some 'mechs painted all-white with no recognizable insignia.

Basically, think of it like Ma Bell also having complete control of the SAS without anyone knowing the SAS exists or that it has anything to do with Bell Telephone and Telegraph. All the public sees is a monopolistic communications agency, and the occasional rumor of someone going missing in THEIR town, but they never get those rumors from OTHER towns unless someone comes to visit, and they're still few enough to be explainable as the occasional drunk-dies-in-ditch, or hiking accident type story. In the midst of being raided to the tune of a quarter of the town dead, having one guy go missing every now and then doesn't even merit much attention.

Y E O N N E, on 09 June 2021 - 06:26 PM, said:

TL;DR: you are defending some of the most awful world-building in sci-fi. We're talking "The Rise of Skywalker" levels of bad.

It's not as awful as you claim, and if you think of it all in the context of WWII, I think you can start to make the puzzle pieces fit together much more snugly. Europe was literally flattened, because anytime anyone caught wind of any kind of military or economic production capacity, they bombed it. The United States, by contrast, was removed and isolated from the conflict, and was saved from all the destruction. Consequently, and subsequently, the US has all the fancy toys and high technology, and kinda roflstomps anyone else in the world who annoys us. Play that out a second time on a smaller scale, you still get one side with a lot more military capacity because theirs hasn't taken any damage, yet.