615 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

GweNTLeR, on 21 February 2021 - 01:21 PM, said:

Well, you might be right, but I still think that Corsair problem requires some solution.
However, with many people asking for AMS boost the problem will only worsen to an extent, where even dumbfire missile will become useless.

For the Corsair I guess we could take it a step further and also revoke the 10% generic range quirk (which stacks with the AMS range quirk for 15%), and in exchange give it some other quirk to compensate (maybe reduced heat gen or something, I dunno).

As for AMS boosting I do agree that we shouldn't buff it right now other than making LAMS more usable.

Edited by FupDup, 21 February 2021 - 01:30 PM.

[Frattak]

Navid A1, on 18 February 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

Here is the link to weapon change suggestions that were brought up by the "gulag" (a group of comp, casual, veteran and new MWO players)

Weapon changes: https://i.imgur.com/allGw5G.png






vs Live stats: https://i.imgur.com/rEh9bJ2.png




In accordance with the above weapon changes these modifications to mech quirks would be required:
https://www.dropbox....11_30.docx?dl=0




Mech agility increase across the board, according to this proposal:
https://docs.google....#gid=1508912275



Also... Jump Jets:

• Current system:

• Solution:

MASC:

• Reduce MASC fill-rate by 50% (from 0.09 to 0.045), leading to double active time
  
• Reduce accel/decel boost to x1.5 (instead of x 2)
  
• Reduce reticle shake and spread to 33% of current amount (-66%reduction)
  
• Increase redline threshold to 85 (from 75)

Full proposal including the above mentioned weapon changes and other aspects, like mech mobility and Jump jets: https://www.dropbox....AG_v2.pptx?dl=0




Will update this post if something changes.

I am not playing like i used to but i think this could be a good way to start again.

[PASHA]

Putting my full support for Navid’s proposal on page 1.

[xAndy199]

Blechreiz, on 21 February 2021 - 12:36 PM, said:

Yeah, sorry, I pretty much doubt that just by looking at the Gulag's proposed changes to AMS.

It's funny how the change with the biggest impact on gameplay seems to go largely unnoticed.

By increasing the optimal range of AMS both LRMs and ATMs will be rendered useless. Not only will they be targetable for a longer period of time by a single AMS-carrying mech, they will also be targeted by more mechs. Increasing the missile health in the proposed way won't help a bit. My guess is that MRM, and even SRM, will also suffer quite a bit.

In addition to that ammo count should be increased so you will basically never run out of AMS-ammo? Yeah, right...

AMS needs some changes, I agree. It needs an adjustment to its impact on matchscore, LAMS should be cooler and its shooting through obstacles should be fixed. But other than that I think it's fine (comming from someone who uses AMS regularly).

Another proposed change, that obviously was put in there without much thinking is the change to the damage of ATMs. Reduce short range damage by an specific amount and increase long range damage by the same amount, sounds good on paper, doesn't work like that in the game. As if you could reliably use ATMs in their long range damage bracket. Classic example of what you would call a "Milchmädchenrechnung".

Hence I can only hope that this whole packet of adjustments will be not implemented by PGI since it would have a pretty horrible impact on gameplay, and as a result, on the number of active players.

I wouldn't see the AMS buff as a bad thing or that it would render (non-boated) missiles useless.
One thing is spreadsheet warfare, which unfortunately we have to do here to give any argument some concrete point, but there's also the "unquantifiable background considerations".
The chief of that being the player base. Can't revamp the player base, mechbros.
AMS can absolutely eliminate boats from a match even today if you try hard enough. Take a chassis that can mount more than 1 AMS and hug your allies. I try to do that sometimes, for the memes, and it works. If there's at least 3x AMS in one group, all of your LRM20s will be reduced to LRM5s or less. But group cohesion just isn't there with randoms. You can roleplay as a medieval squire and follow every fat mech with your AMS boat, but that's very one-sided gameplay. It's only fun if you're after good boy points and get an emotional high from being Videogame Jesus. More range might seem bad, but I think it would actually make 2x AMS support builds (using your AMS to shield others) less constraining.

When it comes to AMS ammo, the current ammo/ton values to me are the same story as UAC/20 - I run 1 ton of ammo per AMS unit, but I'd need 1.5 tons in a match (which is why I always have 1 LAMS as backup). On squire duty, that 1 ton is not enough, but 1.5 tons is a waste. I treat it as a tactical option and choose to run the AMS dry instead of risking ammo depletion on my Autocannons.

What I don't get is the calls for less LAMS heat. Never bothered me. Then again, I've never played a build that is high heat and has (L)AMS.

[FupDup]

xAndy199, on 21 February 2021 - 01:36 PM, said:

What I don't get is the calls for less LAMS heat. Never bothered me. Then again, I've never played a build that is high heat and has (L)AMS.

Heat in general is the main factor limiting your damage output. LAMS reduces the amount of heat you have available at any given time, thus reducing your damage output. Regular AMS also somewhat reduces your damage by making you spend a bit of tonnage and slots, but LAMS imposes a much greater damage reduction because it costs weight, slots, and heat.

LAMS as it is really only makes sense on Gauss mechs, CAC/10 boats, or weird things like the Cicada 3C that have a lot of heat to spare.

Edited by FupDup, 21 February 2021 - 01:40 PM.

[Tarogato]

FupDup, on 21 February 2021 - 12:47 PM, said:

I don't remember DHS ever dissipating 0.11. Their old values from the really olden days were 0.2 for engine sinks (TruDubs) and 0.14 for external DHS (PoorDubs). I think they were buffed a little higher at some point afterwards (I forgot exactly what it was). Present day they're 0.22 internal and external.

Putting them down to 0.11 would actually make them worse than current SHS (which are 0.14). They'd be almost as bad as SHS originally were (0.1).

My bad, edited that.

Was looking at old patch notes and put in the SHS value instead of DHS.

The correct DHS values of the time were 0.14 and 0.15 with TruDubs at 0.20.

Edited by Tarogato, 21 February 2021 - 01:49 PM.

[xAndy199]

FupDup, on 21 February 2021 - 01:39 PM, said:

Heat in general is the main factor limiting your damage output. LAMS reduces the amount of heat you have available at any given time, thus reducing your damage output. Regular AMS also somewhat reduces your damage by making you spend a bit of tonnage and slots, but LAMS imposes a much greater damage reduction because it costs weight, slots, and heat.

LAMS as it is really only makes sense on Gauss mechs, CAC/10 boats, or weird things like the Cicada 3C that have a lot of heat to spare.

I run a BSW-S2 with 1 AMS and 1 LAMS as my permanent AMS build in my mechbay. I rarely play it, but when I do, I spend the whole match looking for places to position myself between my Assaults and enemy LRM concentrations without getting insta-deleted. AC/10, MRM10, and an ER Large Laser (ER because I have it on my drop deck to help counter missile spam). Heat isn't an issue with that build.
I guess you could get more damage output and arrive at heat issues with 2x MRM20 in place of the AC/10+MRM10.

But generally, with this build and with any build I mount AMS on, the requirement to position myself to the team's benefit "naturally" reduces heat buildup - just can't go full tilt

[BattleBurgers]

UPnADAM, on 18 February 2021 - 07:02 PM, said:

Please for everything holy remove the charge mechanic on gauss and give them just a bit more HP

Agreed on the charge-up. That just makes Gauss rifles so difficult to use with any other type of weapon, and I don't really see how it benefits the game in terms of balance. At best an inconvenience to experienced players, and at worst prevents new players from being able to use Gauss rifles effectively.

Also, in case it hasn't been said already, please get rid of ghost heat entirely. It makes no sense in the BattleTech universe and it doesn't seem to affect the light laser boats that actually need balancing.

[Y E O N N E]

You have a million and a half other weapons to choose from if you want point-and-click instant gratification. The charge-up makes the Gauss distinct and is not a hindrance at all for use with other weapons once you have the muscle memory down.

[R Valentine]

Navid A1, on 18 February 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

Here is the link to weapon change suggestions that were brought up by the "gulag" (a group of comp, casual, veteran and new MWO players)

Weapon changes: https://i.imgur.com/allGw5G.png






vs Live stats: https://i.imgur.com/rEh9bJ2.png




In accordance with the above weapon changes these modifications to mech quirks would be required:
https://www.dropbox....11_30.docx?dl=0




Mech agility increase across the board, according to this proposal:
https://docs.google....#gid=1508912275



Also... Jump Jets:

• Current system:

• Solution:

MASC:

• Reduce MASC fill-rate by 50% (from 0.09 to 0.045), leading to double active time
  
• Reduce accel/decel boost to x1.66 (instead of x 2)
  
• Reduce reticle shake and spread to 33% of current amount (-66%reduction)
  
• Increase redline threshold to 85 (from 75)

Full proposal including the above mentioned weapon changes and other aspects, like mech mobility and Jump jets: https://www.dropbox....AG_v2.pptx?dl=0




Will update this post if something changes.

Should also add a re-REEEEEEEscale to this, given that mechs like the Jenner are absurdly large of their tonnage. Dump the "volumetric" scale idea and give mechs of a similar weight a similar size.

[barcode]

-Give a number of the early-release mechs a second look for quirks, et cetera. I rarely see an Atlas, King Crab, or Jenner. I never see a Cataphract, a Centurion, or any Highlanders.

-Consider giving the KGC-0000 an HSL perk for its AC20s.

-Consider giving armor bonuses for mounting weapons that give mechs "ears". The Timber Wolf and Mad Cat 2 are frequently denied their silhouette by players knowing better than to mount LRMs and thus grow their side torso surface area by 50%.


And, a pie-in-the-sky request...

Remove convergence, but have arms point towards the crosshair as they already do. Give special "gimbal slots" to mechs with particularly atrocious weapon mounts (eg: Atlas' hip cannon).

That's it, that's the change. But if you want to read more, here's what benefits I see this providing the game:

• Gives another avenue to differentiate mechs. Patterns of fire will differ across chassises. Lights will enjoy
  
• Gives another avenue to differentiate "lots of little weapons" against "one big weapon". As it stands, the choice is entirely a matter of number-crunching against the number of weapon slots a 'Mech has. Having arrays of weapons inherently "spread damage" would further differentiate them from heavier-hitters. Plus, splashing weapons-fire across enemy 'Mechs would look much better than laser quintets firing diagonally into a single point on the enemy.
  
• Potentially can reduce the number of "hidden mechanics" in the game. Quirk lists are kind of illegible to new players, and everyone uses an external website to understand how HSL works. (HSL as an acronym is not explained anywhere in-game! I know what it is, but I don't know what it stands for!) I believe that the inherent differentiation by mech/weapon geometry could potentially reduce the need for these features, but they could certainly stay if proven otherwise.
  
• Brings a major inherent bonus to arms, arm-mounted weapons, and disabling arm-lock. A depressing number of (meta) MWO builds involve stripping all armour off of the arms and/or mounting weapons exclusively in the torso. The aesthetic and feel of the game would improve quite a bit if this was much less useful and/or not an explicit goal of 'Mech-building.

One interesting point is convergence vs Lights. Lights would enjoy retaining much more convergence than any other weight class, but all weight classes would be able to "spray" Lights more easily, because their fire would create a fence of (eg) lasers instead of simply missing or hitting with everything that isn't a missile.

Edited by barcode, 21 February 2021 - 03:22 PM.

[xLUPOx]

Priority must go to the gulag project.

On top of everything, you must buff first the weakest stuff: gauss and lasers, both clan and IS

[D A T A]

Buff gauss and lasers first, both clan and IS, they are out of the comp meta since 2017, they are useless trash

[Y E O N N E]

barcode, on 21 February 2021 - 03:17 PM, said:

• Brings a major inherent bonus to arms, arm-mounted weapons, and disabling arm-lock. A depressing number of (meta) MWO builds involve stripping all armour off of the arms and/or mounting weapons exclusively in the torso. The aesthetic and feel of the game would improve quite a bit if this was much less useful and/or not an explicit goal of 'Mech-building.

Not really for this thread, but you can make arms more useful by moving the weapon mounts to the top of the wrist instead of being slung underneath. PGI has a tendency to do the latter and it hurts so many 'Mechs unnecessarily.

[Faolan Kerensky]

First time commenter in the forums but i felt i had to say something here.

As a longtime player of BT and the Mechwarrior franchise, one major thing that' s always bothered me in MWO is the utility some weapons had in tabletop but not in game, the LBX ACs, LRMS, SRMS, MMLS and OS launchers but the main thing all these have in common and was always never available in MWO.

The ability to take multiple ammo types.

leading off of that here are various features and changes which could be developed which in turn could add new opportunities to old mechs and provide new uses for mechs that typically aren't seen as "useful" such as mechs with single missiles hardpoints.

Large Ballistics (LBXs, ACs, GAUSS(H,L,S) Ultras)
These ballistic changes hold no number values at this time however this may be able to provide some ideas for balancing as well

First things first these are all ideas that would need to be tested and responded to by community members

1. Add slugs to LBX ACs and change velocities of Ballistics to match the playstyle of each type.

In order to maintain balance between LBX slugs and standard ACs and still allow both weapons types to remain useful some changes would have to be made. I suggest decreasing the velocity of the slugs much slower than that of the pellets AND less than the speed of Autocannons. Slug LBXs would be more suited to being second line weapons until the final brawl starts than the ACs while ACs would remain a mid range weapon that have more constant DPM over the whole fight this way you could chose between less accurate fire of the LBs that is easier to avoid with the bonus of being able to switch to a higher crit capable weapon later on where armor is stripped and weapon and torsos are more easily crit, again though the weight of ammunition would effect how much of each you could take and in. The back and forth of the whole thing would be interesting as players could chose between brawl, damage support, and range. while ACs are more specialized the LBXs would have more utility over the course of the whole fight and would provide new builds to unused mechs and allow for less of a meta.

With those changes an increase to ALL Autocannons Velocities would be needed including minor small increases to gauss rifles, this would allow autocannons to remain useful at mid range but as a trade off, increase the damage drop-off of the shells at further distances making them harder to aim at range past which they are rated, (past optimal) that way larger autocannons remain a dangerous close-mid range weapons and the smaller ACs (2s, 5s) remain dangerous and accurate at further ranges. This means that taking a mixed builds may provide more popular and allow for more diverse builds, delegating weapons to the ranges they are needed to be used at. As for ultras, increase the clustering of the bursts be decrease the "spammability" and increase the raw pinpoint damage, however recoil could be added to the crosshair similar to H-gauss when Ultras are double tapped from arm mounted hardpoints, meaning ACs may be better for arm mounts and ultras for torsos. Small changes like this add flair and variation to mechs and for mechs that are known for specific weapons Quirks could be added, same with the lesser used mechs to increase the variation of mechs in matches.

Ammo types

The way to achieve multiple ammunition types would be to with a simple Key bind and perhaps some loading time to switch ammo racks. LBXs could be used as lighter ACs and still be able to be as effective at all ranges, of course this also would come at a cost that being to increase the spread of the LBX pellets, its a new mechanic that could lead into a a variety of additional new aspects to the game and new features to draw in more players especially if they progress the timeline adding in the MMLs as well as various ammo types that could dynamically effect gameplay like for instance incendiary ammunition for LRMs and SRMS that would provide more tactical use for an LRM launcher other than just being back line LURM warriors and a bit more utility in the skill trees and for SRMs. They would provide no advantage other than changing environmental heat levels near where they land or act as long range flamers which could also have the benefit of making close range flamers more useful by having a single inferno spewing LRM boat doing no damage but overheating mechs and possibly earning credits for assisted damage done to mechs which you've heated up the most? it could be interesting and you could even take off the minimum ranges for inferno ammo. Also smoke would be an option and facilitate more use of thermals and NV. It would allow for light mechs and mediums to provide direct smokescreen cover for slow heavies and assaults at the cost of having to use a missile hardpoint. As for heavies and assaults being able to take a one shot smoke rack (less weight and slots needed) the slowest could disengage from a fight or provide cover between buildings to not take as much damage.




Energy weapons


PPCs are fine as is however i feel IS PPC capacitors would be a VERY interesting addition and could allow more synergy with Gauss perhaps adding a charge up time similar to gauss at the cost of being able to be detonated like a gauss?

Small and micro Pulse lasers- Higher rate of fire, lower damage turn em into a DPS weapon like MGs

Flamers-toggle option for higher damage with less heat or more heat and no damage

All MGS- MORE DPS less crit

[ghost1e]

BattleBurgers, on 21 February 2021 - 02:32 PM, said:

Agreed on the charge-up. That just makes Gauss rifles so difficult to use with any other type of weapon, and I don't really see how it benefits the game in terms of balance. At best an inconvenience to experienced players, and at worst prevents new players from being able to use Gauss rifles effectively.

Also, in case it hasn't been said already, please get rid of ghost heat entirely. It makes no sense in the BattleTech universe and it doesn't seem to affect the light laser boats that actually need balancing.

Yes, let's just have only full PPC stack direwhales as meta...

Sounds very fun and enjoyable.

[xLUPOx]

Navid A1, on 18 February 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

Here is the link to weapon change suggestions that were brought up by the "gulag" (a group of comp, casual, veteran and new MWO players)

Weapon changes: https://i.imgur.com/allGw5G.png



I think this is a very accurate and balanced proposal. Hope will be chosen.



vs Live stats: https://i.imgur.com/rEh9bJ2.png




In accordance with the above weapon changes these modifications to mech quirks would be required:
https://www.dropbox....11_30.docx?dl=0




Mech agility increase across the board, according to this proposal:
https://docs.google....#gid=1508912275



MASC: (NOTE: These changes complement the base agility increase for all mechs,... linked above)

• Reduce MASC fill-rate by 50% (from 0.09 to 0.045), leading to double active time
  
• Reduce accel/decel boost to x1.66 (instead of x 2)
  
• Reduce reticle shake and spread to 33% of current amount (-66%reduction)
  
• Increase redline threshold to 85 (from 75)

Also... Jump Jets:

• Current system:

• Solution:

Full proposal including the above mentioned weapon changes and other aspects, like mech mobility and Jump jets: https://www.dropbox....AG_v2.pptx?dl=0





Will update this post if something changes.

[Elizander]

Keep gauss charge.

[ghost1e]

xAndy199, on 21 February 2021 - 02:05 PM, said:

I run a BSW-S2 with 1 AMS and 1 LAMS as my permanent AMS build in my mechbay. I rarely play it, but when I do, I spend the whole match looking for places to position myself between my Assaults and enemy LRM concentrations without getting insta-deleted. AC/10, MRM10, and an ER Large Laser (ER because I have it on my drop deck to help counter missile spam). Heat isn't an issue with that build.
I guess you could get more damage output and arrive at heat issues with 2x MRM20 in place of the AC/10+MRM10.

But generally, with this build and with any build I mount AMS on, the requirement to position myself to the team's benefit "naturally" reduces heat buildup - just can't go full tilt

I'd assume your build looks something like this: https://mech.nav-alp...507025f3_BSW-S2
(probably has waaay more back armor, I know)

Now, you have 3 different velocities, 3 different ranges and 3 different cooldowns. I do not know how you manage those weapons, but I'd assume you stare at your enemy and fire away.

Then again, that build is completely fine if it's fun for you and I'm not criticizing that at all. But when it comes to balancing weapons, we should balance according to the best possible builds on mechs / with weapon systems.

P.S.: My 1AC2 DWF is underperforming lately, PGI pls gib 20% cooldown quirk

P.P.S.: This is not necessarily sth against Andy, more a preemptive warning to everyone.

Edited by TheUltimateGhost, 22 February 2021 - 01:31 AM.

[MechWarrior5782621]

Keep gauss charge, give gauss a cooldown buff. That's the best way to improve it somewhat, without going overboard & making it too good (which could happen with a damage buff). Maybe reduce the charge time slightly.

AC20 needs a massive velocity buff, which is in the gulag's proposal

IDK if MASC really needs all those buffs? Don't people already choose to run MASC, on a lot of MASC-capable mechs? Doubling the active time is a massive buff.

LAMS heat reduction is good. Not sure if regular AMS needs another round of buffs.