107 replies to this topic

[TheArisen]

FupDup, on 03 March 2021 - 01:10 PM, said:

All Dragons have pretty large quirks for both durability and firepower. They're not enough to make the chassis truly "good," but they look pretty nice on paper at least.

What kind of quirks would it take to make the Grand Dragon at least decent? If they go the PPC route then heat gen & cooldown 15% or better?

[FupDup]

TheArisen, on 03 March 2021 - 01:40 PM, said:

What kind of quirks would it take to make the Grand Dragon at least decent? If they go the PPC route then heat gen & cooldown 15% or better?

I already posted about that in my New Robots thread:

FupDup, on 20 February 2021 - 09:06 AM, said:

I'm gonna try to predict the quirks of these gundams. The Dragon will be easier since it won't have ECM or MASC to subtract from its power budget.

All Dragon variants have identical armor and structure quirks, so the Grand Dragon should be no different:
CT: +16 armor, +10 structure
LA: +10 armor
LT: +16 armor
RA: +20 armor, +10 structure
RT: +16 armor
LL: +14 structure
RL: +14 structure

The weapon quirks are a bit less straightforward, so let's list all of the current variants to establish a baseline.

DRG-1C: Ballistic cooldown -15%, Energy cooldown -10%, Missile cooldown -15%

DRG-1N: AC/5 cooldown -10%, Ballistic cooldown -15%, Energy cooldown -10%, Energy range +10%, Missile cooldown -15%

DRG-5N: Ballistic cooldown -10%, Ballistic range +15%, Ballistic velocity +15%, Energy cooldown -15%, Laser duration -15%, UAC Jam chance -40%, UAC/5 cooldown -15%

DRG-FANG: AC/10 cooldown -10%, Ballistic cooldown -10%, Ballistic velocity +10%, Energy cooldown -15%, Energy heat -15%, Laser duration -10%

DRG-FLAME: Ballistic cooldown -10%, Ballistic velocity +10%, Energy heat -10%


Okay, so the first observation to make here is that the Flame and 1C have the lowest overall quirks. They will be the baseline for my most pessimistic estimate. The other variants have much better quirks, with the 5N having the most. They will be the baseline for the most optimistic estimate.

Pessimistic Estimate:
Same durability as other variants, -10% Energy heat, -15% Energy cooldown, +20% PPC velocity (all types), -15% Missile cooldown

Optimistic Estimate:
Same durability as other variants, -15% Energy heat, -15% Energy cooldown, -15% Laser duration, +20% PPC velocity (all types), -15% Missile cooldown, +10% Energy range

What I actually want:
This is a mech that would, for once, actually benefit from a big energy cooldown quirk because of having so few energy hardpoints on a 60-ton mech. Crank it up to 20% or 25%. Perhaps change energy heat reduction to 20%. Otherwise the other stats from the Optimistic Estimate would be okay. Not great, but playable. I still want more energy hardpoints.

[TheArisen]

FupDup, on 03 March 2021 - 01:42 PM, said:

I already posted about that in my New Robots thread:

I'm 100% in agreement. This new Dragon is an obvious choice for some "big scary numbers" quirks.

[Meep Meep]

I'm still waiting for clan urbies and the hollander variants.

[TheArisen]

Meep Meep, on 03 March 2021 - 02:05 PM, said:

I'm still waiting for clan urbies and the hollander variants.

Hollander is pretty much the epitome of bad. It's so bad it literally can't be quirked into decency.

[FupDup]

TheArisen, on 03 March 2021 - 02:11 PM, said:

Hollander is pretty much the epitome of bad. It's so bad it literally can't be quirked into decency.

Literally anything can be quirked into decency if we completely remove all inhibitions.

It would be more accurate to say that it is very unlikely to be quirked into decency. Possible, but not probable.

Light ACs would help reduce (but not eliminate) the need for quirkage at least. If the Hollander's hero variant was built around energy weapons (HPPC stock probably) then that would at least be one good variant out of the box (paywalled unfortunately).

There is a canon variant called the BZK-D3 Hollander III which comes with an ERPPC as the main gun. It requires NuTech™ though (Reflective Armor, Compact Gyro, Supercharger, Angel ECM). Has 2 energy in the left torso and 1 in the head too, so it's not all dependent on the RT. Too bad it's from year 3118.

Edited by FupDup, 03 March 2021 - 02:26 PM.

[TheArisen]

FupDup, on 03 March 2021 - 02:14 PM, said:

Literally anything can be quirked into decency if we completely remove all inhibitions.

It would be more accurate to say that it is very unlikely to be quirked into decency. Possible, but not probable.

Light ACs would help reduce (but not eliminate) the need for quirkage at least.

Yeah I realized that after I posted. With quirks double those of the strongest in MWO history it could be alright but it'd need big time inflation too. I mean, part of it's appeal is it's a BFG on legs but that's a huge part of why it's so bad in gameplay terms.

[Meep Meep]

TheArisen, on 03 March 2021 - 02:11 PM, said:

Hollander is pretty much the epitome of bad. It's so bad it literally can't be quirked into decency.

That depends on if they try to make it lore accurate or simply toss that crap out and make it work. They tried to make the game TT compliant early on and it near fell on its face. The early days of balance were a huge roller coaster ride..

[FupDup]

Meep Meep, on 03 March 2021 - 02:24 PM, said:

That depends on if they try to make it lore accurate or simply toss that crap out and make it work. They tried to make the game TT compliant early on and it near fell on its face. The early days of balance were a huge roller coaster ride..

TT compliancy can't save the Hollander. The Hollander's TT niche was that it gave you Gauss Rifle on legs that cost fewer space dollars to purchase than something heavier. The role of saving money doesn't have a whole lot of place in a first-person game where we only control one mech instead of several.

Beyond quirks, I guess the Hollander could be "saved" by giving it extreme hardpoint inflation, like 8+ ballistics so it can megaboat MGs. Make it the IS Piranha. Of course that does completely destroy the spirit of the mech.

Edited by FupDup, 03 March 2021 - 02:28 PM.

[Meep Meep]

FupDup, on 03 March 2021 - 02:25 PM, said:

TT compliancy can't save the Hollander. The Hollander's TT niche was that it gave you Gauss Rifle on legs that cost fewer space dollars to purchase than something heavier. The role of saving money doesn't have a whole lot of place in a first-person game where we only control one mech instead of several.

Yeah I understand but look at our urbies though..

[FupDup]

Meep Meep, on 03 March 2021 - 02:27 PM, said:

Yeah I understand but look at our urbies though..

Urbies got pretty lucky with megaquirked armor. For weapons they tend to rely on lasers more often than not, which the Hollander lacks on almost all variants except the Hollander II (45 tons) and the very far-out BZK-D3 Hollander III.

Speaking of which, I guess the Hollander II would be the most usable by virtue of its tonnage and being able to mount MRMs with a bit of backup.

Edited by FupDup, 03 March 2021 - 02:31 PM.

[FupDup]

Ya know what, let's make a compromise on the Hollander. You'll get your Holly...but only the Hollander II.

Since only two canon variants of the Holly II exist that gives us some freedom to make cool stuff like a variant with an energy-focused loadout or even a missile variant (bonus points if we get Thunderbolt missiles and it carries a T-Bolt 20 as the main weapon). We can even make our own low-tech version of the BZK-D3 that has MASC and regular ECM.

Edited by FupDup, 03 March 2021 - 02:43 PM.

[Meep Meep]

FupDup, on 03 March 2021 - 02:30 PM, said:

Urbies got pretty lucky with megaquirked armor. For weapons they tend to rely on lasers more often than not, which the Hollander lacks on almost all variants except the Hollander II (45 tons) and the very far-out BZK-D3 Hollander III.

Speaking of which, I guess the Hollander II would be the most usable by virtue of its tonnage and being able to mount MRMs with a bit of backup.

My fave urbies are the rac2 and mrm40 fits. Energy is typically whatever smalls I can fit in unless its the police urbie which of course gets a 5 mpl setup. There are a fair few hollander variants and with the right quirks at least a couple could be made usable for quick play which seems to be true of pretty much every mechs variants. I think people want it more just for it being a somewhat iconic mech and less for some advantage it will give them in battle.

[TheArisen]

Meep Meep, on 03 March 2021 - 02:37 PM, said:

My fave urbies are the rac2 and mrm40 fits. Energy is typically whatever smalls I can fit in unless its the police urbie which of course gets a 5 mpl setup. There are a fair few hollander variants and with the right quirks at least a couple could be made usable for quick play which seems to be true of pretty much every mechs variants. I think people want it more just for it being a somewhat iconic mech and less for some advantage it will give them in battle.

Hollander would need stronger than Urbie quirks and it's MWO design would need to minimize it's most recognizable feature/liability to try to save it because it's base form is a 35t Hunchback.

Everyone has mechs they like or consider iconic but we've seen more than a few "iconic" mechs get left behind when they're not fun to play because they're not just non-meta, but not even decent. Just put a gauss into a Raven or Firestarter and then imagine it has a gigantic torso that's housing the fragile gauss. Even without a gauss it's a substantial liability.

I think it's a cool mech visually and in lore but not so much for MWO.

[FupDup]

TheArisen, on 05 March 2021 - 07:22 AM, said:

Hollander would need stronger than Urbie quirks and it's MWO design would need to minimize it's most recognizable feature/liability to try to save it because it's base form is a 35t Hunchback.

Everyone has mechs they like or consider iconic but we've seen more than a few "iconic" mechs get left behind when they're not fun to play because they're not just non-meta, but not even decent. Just put a gauss into a Raven or Firestarter and then imagine it has a gigantic torso that's housing the fragile gauss. Even without a gauss it's a substantial liability.

I think it's a cool mech visually and in lore but not so much for MWO.

Now that I think about it the Hollander II (45-ton version) might actually be salvageable. The 35-ton version not so much. Mount some dakka and some backup lasers and you're good to go. Not really revolutionary, but definitely usable. The weaponless arms at least lets you strip them for a little bit more tonnage.

If the Hollander ends up continuing to dominate polling we might be able to redirect people towards the Hollander II instead of the regular Holly.

[Requiemking]

FupDup, on 03 March 2021 - 01:10 PM, said:

All Dragons have pretty large quirks for both durability and firepower. They're not enough to make the chassis truly "good," but they look pretty nice on paper at least.

Again, it's a Dragon. That alone is reason enough for it to have non-existent quirks right out of the gate in the eyes of the Balance Overlord.

[PocketYoda]

Requiemking, on 05 March 2021 - 07:24 PM, said:

Again, it's a Dragon. That alone is reason enough for it to have non-existent quirks right out of the gate in the eyes of the Balance Overlord.

If you go by tabletop its actually a variant Dragon.. Slightly upgraded version.

[John McHobo]

My reaction to the variant: "meh"

I love Dragons, I run the Chassis since the Beta but the Dragon has never been very powerful and having 2 energy hardpoints on each arm instead of a ballistic is just awful. People called for one more E on the right arm, but that would not change the fact that a)his knuckledragger arm hardpoints are bad no matter how many you have, to make use of all 4 hardpoints you have to completely expose yourself with this extremely wide mech and c)at 60 tons and the fact that I want a big engine in my Dragon (because mobility is the only thing that saves him IMO) the loadout can´t be that heavy anyways.

The Thunderbolt can at least be interesting to play, why anyone should really want the non-MASC version of the "Grand" Dragon is beyond me. Its trash.

[Requiemking]

Samial, on 05 March 2021 - 07:58 PM, said:

If you go by tabletop its actually a variant Dragon.. Slightly upgraded version.

Again, as far as the Balance Overlord is concerned, the mere fact that it's a Dragon in any form is enough to warrant it being launched with either no quirks or quirks so bad that they might as well be non-existent.

[John McHobo]

Requiemking, on 07 March 2021 - 10:37 AM, said:

Again, as far as the Balance Overlord is concerned, the mere fact that it's a Dragon in any form is enough to warrant it being launched with either no quirks or quirks so bad that they might as well be non-existent.

What? PGI thinks the Dargon does not need huge quirks, seriously? Please elaborate.