801 replies to this topic

[Arianrhod]

Lot of vitriol on this thread, and I can understand why to an extent, but I’m going to try to give a more professional take and remind anyone reading this that the steps the developers take with balance changes do not necessarily reflect on the content of their character as people. I don’t like these changes but they are not worth raging over.

Coming back to MWO after about 2 years, I’ve been having a lot of fun again, but this patch really confuses me. Gauss/PPC builds have always been about high sniper alphas and it’s been a slow progression towards reducing the effectiveness of high sniper alphas and getting more mechs engaged more of the time. To reverse course on that so hard is quite strange to me, especially on weapons that don’t perform highly in that niche like the L-PPC, SN-PPC, and most of all L-Gauss, which I’d consider to be the game’s single least viable weapon. What I’m seeing here is an overall nerf to the PPC weapon system in a way that incentivizes PPC setups to stay as far back as possible and make as little contact as possible, which is just bad for everyone’s game experience, both the sniper and the target. I’ve been loving H-PPC setups lately but a 20% DPS reduction due to an unsustainably slow recycle rate is going to make that a functionally worthless weapon system for me, especially because I usually take them into midrange engagements and brawls alongside an AC/20 or additional PPCs. Why do that now? Why do anything other than range trades? The system now cycles nearly as slowly as heavy laser alpha strikes, which deal dramatically more damage per ton. Say nothing about pulse laser alpha strikes, the clear winner in DPS per ton versus PPCs.

And having Gauss and L-Gauss cycle more slowly than H-Gauss is making those weapons look hotly undesirable as well. If it wasn’t already, the L-Gauss at 12 tons + ammunition is now definitively the worst return on tonnage investment for any weapon; you could save 2 tons with an AC/10 and have roughly twice as much DPS. Let me say that again: Twice as much DPS. For another comparison, the L-Gauss rifle will now have the same damage and almost the same cycle rate as a single C-ER large laser, whilst weighing 3 times as much unloaded and occupying 5 times the critical space. The IS ER large laser, meanwhile, cycles 2 seconds faster than the new L-Gauss and weighs less than half as much. But those are not fair comparisons, you might say, as the L-Gauss is single projectile rather than hitscan with duration (most people seem to agree with me already, but just for the sake of argument). Well, a single IS AC/5 or UAC/5 will have fired between 3 and 4 times (or 6-8 times with a UAC/5 if you’re lucky on jam chance rolls) in the space that an L-Gauss can discharge once, eclipsing its DPS at long range nearly as much as the AC/10 will at midrange, again at additional gains on tonnage and critical space. Any niche the L-Gauss might have had has been effectively eliminated.

To continue with the AC/5 comparison, the AC/5 will also be able to fire between 4 and 5 times during the recycle of an H-PPC. Let’s assume both weapons weigh 10 tons, assuming you used 2 tons for AC/5 ammunition but also that you didn’t equip heat sinks for the energy weapon that now generates 16.25 heat. Basically giving the H-PPC the best possible chance. Even so your single AC/5 will output stronger DPS and less heat at a better range and a higher velocity, whilst losing only by 2 critical slots—until you start adding those heat sinks I mentioned, at which point the single AC/5 starts winning on both tonnage and critical slots. Make no mistake: regardless of the alpha strike increase, PPCs are getting nerfed, hard.

As for the MASC changes, I’ve thought MASC deserved a bit of a buff for a while, mainly for heavier mechs. But what is this reduction to turn rate while MASC is in use? Who was ever complaining that mechs with MASC are too maneuverable? Don’t people usually complain that mechs in MWO don’t feel agile enough since engine desync? I don’t think this change is particularly make or break, in fact I doubt most people will notice the nerf, whereas they will notice the buffs in a big way, but it is nonetheless a bit baffling.

TL;DR: Woof.

[ItchyTriggerFingers]

This will probably be lost in the sea of replies. A shame because I reckon this is maybe the second time I reply to patch updates since the game has started. I have a few thousand hours invested in the game, overall, and just wanted to weigh in with my vote as I have been getting excited for MWO since Dec/Jan.

However, I am not excited for the proposed weapon changes.

I use lots of clan mechs and PPCs because I am a tragic, and the heat increase is going to hurt a LOT of builds considering the Clan mechs have a lower heat maximum.
Coupled with the longer cool down times, C-ErPPCs are going to be viable only on fast mechs that can easily reposition and can afford to not shoot for extended periods for heat to drop.

The IS L/HPPCs also seem to be losing their niche, and the other values seem like changes for the sake of changes.

Gauss... I agree that the light should be more on rapid firing than high dps, otherwise it is just another Gauss; more same-same. Already the cycle times make it difficult to pair with other weapon systems, this is just going to make them more awkward.

Please rethink those values.


Lastly, what killed MWO for me a few years ago was the constant flip/flopping of values backed purely by speculation.
While I have never used it, I hear there is a testing platform/server for MWO. It would be an idea to make the changes on this server, get players to live test it, then impliment the changes on the main server side with final tweaks (or even review if the changes should proceed at all!).
If you haven't heard, EVE Online has(/had?) a similar system for changes and it stoped the flipping/flopping, and also presents the front-end player base with actual collected and tested data that is hard to refute, especially if it has been reviewed and fine-tuned with test-players in a 'live' scenerio. Apologies for bringing another company into the mix, but that was the best handled patch update method I have ever seen. It even gave players a chance to warm up to the idea of change instead of being dropped into the frypan with mere hours to go. Having this sort of pre-warning and system of screening changes would also help with Mech sales because honestly a few years ago with all the flip/flop changes going on I didn't feel confident to make any actual game purchases. I mean, what's the point if things change so often and dramatically?

I'd suggest something like this occurs to help promote a "measure twice, cut once" approach to future MWO changes.

Edited by ItchyTriggerFingers, 16 March 2021 - 02:40 AM.

[Prince of Kyrgyzstan]

The6thMessenger, on 15 March 2021 - 10:05 PM, said:

Jesus ******* christ, the sensitivity of the balancing overlords. Is this factor is your self-esteem?

Let's get this straight, the Gulag knew the game better, they knew what they were doing with the balance. With what the numbers put forward, it looks like you don't. We are pushing for the Gulag, because they know what they are doing, and your staff has consistently proven us that your staff barely do.

The fact that you get PPC cooldowns wrong, they are 4s, not 4.5s, and have you based your changes on a spreadsheet with wrong information, I shudder to think what else you have in store for us.

Don't get me wrong, I do have criticisms levied with the Gulag's balance, and there are some things I would like to see that is maybe contrary or not where the Gulag ended up. But after all that is said and done, their values are overwhelmingly good for the game.

If you really care about MWO, you'd actually just do the Gulag. But it looks like you don't.

Basically what The6thMessenger said. This balance update is bad and will cause several weapons and playstyles to be heavily nerfed.

Now really I am not that disappointed in PGI or Chris at handling this update, because I was kinda expecting something like this to happen in terms of the balance. The thing I am wondering is how much goodwill (which at this moment doesn't most likely exist) PGI is wasting from the community and from the balance Gulag people. How many times will PGI spit on them for them to learn to not do anything and let the game burn.

"Do everything the Gulag says" or maybe better in this case "Gulag, when do you stop bothering and spending your time with a company that doesn't appreciate anything you do for them?"

[The6thMessenger]

InnerSphereNews, on 15 March 2021 - 10:41 AM, said:

This is your warhawk?

I mean okay sure, but why is this not using Lower Arm Actuator? It's not like it has torso weapons for ease of convergence.

[DevlinCognito]

I forgot how fun this game could be, I think I'll start playing with the lads again... *looks at weapon changes*... Nope, back to Tarkov methinks.

[General Solo]

I was pleasantly surprised and pleased with the new hire.

Were weapon balance changes necessary?

My thoughts about the weapon balance changes are, I will give them a try.
The weapon balance changes seem to increase power creep and reduce TTL at first glance at the numbers.

On the positive side, the velocity changes should help those with 3rd world liberal Internet, so yay for me.

The masc changes, I disagree with, at first glance, seems like a nerf, though I will give it a try.
If the masc changes turn masc to crap, the changes mean you can just use crap masc 100% longer.
Something taken always hurts more, doh.

But it is more realistic to RL and the lore, with a larger turn radius, (skidding).

But frankly unneeded and unwelcome changes, when the real issues is bugs and merge queue, as no match maker can work with that.

Hopefully the new Level designer guy can help with bugs like invisible walls.
Fingers crossed

All these changes just to nerf one PPC shadow cat


Was a joke, but some how still feelz like it.


If my hitreg was better I would drive other mechs more often
haha

Edited by General Solo, 16 March 2021 - 01:52 AM.

[IshanDeston]

My first thought was:

"Meet new boss, same as old boss"

My subsequent thoughts were:

And this is why you keep Devs away from weapon balance that claim they are not a spreadsheet warrior and don't understand the numbers

Do you guys actually play the game and know how long a 7 second cooldown is?! Is this your plan to make long range weapons entirely useless?

And why would you make these changes on the live server when you have a test server?!

What were you thinking when you made these changes?!

[Elizander]

I'm not calling the patch a disaster or anything like that. These are just my personal criticisms. Odd things in the patch notes that are of some concern.

* Snub Nose PPC treated as sniper weapon - PPC family treated as if they were long range sniper weapons. Longer CD and lower DPS is bad for brawling. Projectile speed is to allow for better accuracy at longer ranges. The Snub Nose PPC has an optimal range of 270m

* Weren't PPCs on 4 sec CD? I might be mistaken, but 6s CD and 12 damage is a 25% DPS loss if this is the case.

* MASC - I would have understood if the turn rate bonus was reduced to zero, but negative values?

* Armor allocation inconsistency. Commando is 25 tons with 5 back armor. Jenner is 35 tons with 6 back armor. Adder is 35 tons with 4 back armor. Trebuche is 50 tons and has 5 back armor. Other mechs have higher Rear CT armor than rear ST armor. In general, these designs have not been streamlined. Oh, and the Grasshopper has 15/17/15 back armor. Go figure.

* Low head armor on some designs – Newbies tend to not twist or move much. They stand there and stare at me for 5+ seconds. I get most of my headshots off cadets and new players.

* Commando Trial – Has 0.1 tons unallocated and it is still missing 3 armor on the CT and only has 5 head armor. Is there any reason why the 0.1 tons was not put into armor?

* Grasshopper Trial – Back armor through the roof. Arm armor with weapons stripped by 17 points.

* Hellbringer Trial – 28 armor on empty arm. Since they liked stripping head armor so much, they could’ve lost 4 more from the head and strip the arm for 1 more DHS.

* Stalker Trial – MRM40x2 will get ghost heat. Warhawk was designed with 2x LPL and 2x ER PPC to avoid ghost heat.

* Direwolf Trial – Weapons on left side. Is this anti-Nascar?

Overall, I get the impression that the trial mechs were not properly curated by one person. I feel like they were just submitted by several people and not streamlined for release. I’m not saying they are all bad, but the sore points stood out to me.

Snub Nose PPC changes made me feel like whoever adjusted the weapons just did “PPC family” for the sake of doing it without taking into consideration that the Snub Nose PPC is not a sniper weapon. I was personally expecting same CD and lower heat to make it better fill its role.

Edited by Elizander, 16 March 2021 - 02:50 AM.

[Gozuri]

I don't get what all the complaints about ppc heat increase is about. After all, if you look at heat:dmg ratios, its a buff.
As for the dps drop, heat does kinda limit your dps output doesn't it? Unless you can continuously fire your ppcs and remain heat neutral, this change should work in your favour.
Also, would you say 2 AC5s are better than an AC20? It has better dps, but I think many ppl would prefer the better frontloaded dmg of an AC20. Not saying that one is better than the other, since it really depends on personal preference.
Overall, I think ppc got a minor buff

I think I understand what pgi is trying to do with the gauss rifles, but the dps drop really does look huge. I'm willing to give it a try, but it does kinda look bad on paper.

Not sure how significant the Masc nerf is gonna be.

[Fae Puka]

This weapons pass is just wrong on so many levels and appears to have completely ignored all of the requested input and feedback.

Do the folk at PGI ever learn from their mistakes?

Sad; just very sad

Edited by MummyPig, 16 March 2021 - 11:39 AM.

[sinba1ew]

PGI...dont...just dont...

The changes to PPC actually make them better at range due to cooldown times.... (I don't mind) but where I am concerned is where clan gets to have ER-PPC that does 18 damage (12+6splash) for 15.75 heat while even IS Heavy PPC does 17damage for 14.5 heat.... I am concerned about long range maps, cause this might just might end any IS attempts at long range since there is no wining against this in peaking battle with sub-par range lasers & PPC's that are less heat efficient
(i want to emphasize it, clan gets to have ER-PPC that is incredibly heat efficient in comparison to IS ER-PPC)


Another thing....pls don't kill light gauss...it's bad as it is...dont kill it further... if You buff the damage You are making it a gauss at point where it wil start to be usable.... just reduce cooldown in comparison to wahat it was... or increase the amount of light gauss You can fire at once....or reduce it's tonage & critical slots.... anything else than further nerfing it wil help this weapon.


the projectile speed also encourages the ranged play


The MRM health buff also encourages not walking as close due to AMS being less of an issue....



TBH... in casuals these are some ok changes...but the light gauss & the clan PPC I'd say are bit questionable.... IS loses ranged trades anyways, after that there is going to be little to no reason to try to win as inner sphere on sniping maps due to fact that two C-ER-PPC's wil do already 36 damage.... it is fairly silly at this point

<<and no, argument, that clan mechs run hotter is not avalible...
2 C-ER-PPC = 36 damage
3 ER-PPC = 36 damage

clan heat = 2 * 15.75 = 31,5
IS heat = 3 * 14,5 = 43,5

IS runs MUCH hotter, uses more critical slots for it, uses more tonage, ferro & endo cost more slots, XL's are more risky...
Pretty much for the sniping maps.... it looks to me like IS is going to be put down for good this time....




PS:
I am not saying changes to all PPC's are bad...but if You are not for sniping giving ranged PPC more damage & heat wil actually only make sniping more of a thing

also.... pls PGI...if our PPC is to be havy go all the way, make it just do 22 damage for 21.5 heat & call it a day.... if it is to be heavy & it is outperformed in every role by clan ER I don't see it's purpouse... just slap more heat & damage on it...

For the snub nose... I sugest giving it instead of Your changes heat increase & splash damage bump aside of the Cooldown.... You could than actually feel that the projectile is for example 17 heat, 10 damage+10 splash..... it would make it usable with extended cooldown while not making it an AC20 yet...it would be much more fun to use though & much more heat heavy... it'd have unique pleace

Edited by sinba1ew, 16 March 2021 - 03:07 AM.

[cl4sh]

So if I am counting right it is 2:287 Yays vs Nays. Very good job PGI.

EG7 ... can you please hit reset, you are wasting your money and our time.

[Mcgral18]

The6thMessenger, on 15 March 2021 - 10:52 PM, said:

We should just boycott the game, like when the patches drop.

That will make them listen.

I'm still boycotting slow stompy robots


I want fast stompy robots!
Let me torso twist #pgiplz

[RockmachinE]

Can we somehow realistically revert these changes? I think the response is unanimous and overwhelming.

[AnAnachronismAlive]

For those not been able to experience first hand already: Daeron commenting on the patch on NGNGtv (go 5hours 35minutes and past).

#MWOlifesmatter - even if in antechamber of pathology already

Edited by AnAnachronismAlive, 16 March 2021 - 03:22 AM.

[w0qj]

I'm not trying to defending MWO/PGI here, but:

The Stryker Pack's Thunderbolt TDR-10SE using JumpJet + MASC at the same time must have given it very fast turning rate, hence this proposed MASC nerf out of the blue (no one asked for it, right?).

Therefore: MWO/PGI can instead eliminate the faster turn rate from using JumpJet, and then one can keep MASC as it is right now.

Please keep MASC as it is; it is not broken !!!!

Thilas, on 15 March 2021 - 09:30 PM, said:

In the middle of trying to sell the Stryker pack you introduce a patch that hits both mechs. It nerfs MASC (TDR-10SE), and PPCs (DRG-1G).

Mechdocdie, on 16 March 2021 - 03:54 AM, said:

...And why nerf MASC? The challenge of swatting that last remaining Flea or Shadowcat is sometimes the most fun part of a match, almost as much as being that last Flea or Shadowcat. (Poor Shadowcats - double nerfed). How could anyone think the mobility of a Cherbi needed nerfing? or that of a Black Lanner? or a Hellfire?

Those of us who love this game will adjust but it just seems like unnecessary grief. Fix up the maps, bring us new content but please stop assassinating our mechs.

Edited by w0qj, 16 March 2021 - 04:45 AM.

[BARRY SHlTPEAS]

Balance changes look awful.

ALL of the proposed Trial Mechs are either sub-optimal builds or straight up bad builds.

I thought it was kind of a shame when MWO had no more development time being devoted to it in order to free up time for other PGI projects. On reflection the game was better when you weren't doing anything to it.

A return to no patches for MWO please. That way you guys can focus on Transverse or something.

[Antares102]

Wow I am really late to this party, but the changes seem that PGI has not even considered Navid A1s (+GULAG) extensive proposal. This is really a joke. All these changes once again show PGI has no idea about their own game.
C-ERPPC cooldown 7 sec? seriously?

[DAEDALOS513]

Gozuri, on 16 March 2021 - 02:49 AM, said:

I don't get what all the complaints about ppc heat increase is about. After all, if you look at heat:dmg ratios, its a buff.
As for the dps drop, heat does kinda limit your dps output doesn't it? Unless you can continuously fire your ppcs and remain heat neutral, this change should work in your favour.
Also, would you say 2 AC5s are better than an AC20? It has better dps, but I think many ppl would prefer the better frontloaded dmg of an AC20. Not saying that one is better than the other, since it really depends on personal preference.
Overall, I think ppc got a minor buff

I think I understand what pgi is trying to do with the gauss rifles, but the dps drop really does look huge. I'm willing to give it a try, but it does kinda look bad on paper.

Not sure how significant the Masc nerf is gonna be.

The bigger point is they are ignoring all our requests and doing their own thing.. again.... repeating history. The vets know exactly where this is leading: frustrated players.. loss of playerbase... time wasted.. i mean who asked for masc nerf or ac2 velocity buff??

This is basically another hot fix.. when will we see a real patch?

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 16 March 2021 - 04:34 AM.

[Ketzer08]

Quote

The ultimate goal is to better reward the PPC players that successfully play to their weapon strength, but also open them up to a bit more natural counter-play when pressed by more close range-focused 'Mechs.

So...no PTS?
Do you actually play the game? PPCs is mostly used in combination with other weapons. This changes ruin the synergy, lowering the "strength" of weapon. Waiting 7 seconds before you can try to shoot again is NOT FUN.
PPCs require a lot of tonnage investment in heatsinks, especially for IS. IS PPCs are already caped by IS DHS as it is, comparing to other close range-focused weaponry.
Suggestion:
Why not to try something actually "NEW":
https://www.sarna.ne...i/PPC_Capacitor
Well you know... to spice things up. And you will get your chance to justify increasing the cooldown time, while giving IS PPCs more valuable options.