801 replies to this topic

[Alilua]

I don't think weapon balance will go well but I'll wait until things go live before the facepalming. If the next patch is bad I hope the dev team marathon live streams every single game/mod pgi has had a hand in making from the beginning to the end as punishment.

[M5000]

This is certainly an interesting place to start with some of the weapons passes.

I am going to go through the items line by line and give my feedback in the hopes that it can be found useful either by a developer or by a community member. All my "weak vs strong" feedback is in reference to how things feel pre-patch.

Weapon changes:
PPC: Damage changes are good, all others I believe should have stayed as is. PPC was slightly weak.

IS ER PPC: Damage and velocity changes are good. All others should have stayed as is. ER PPC is somewhat weak.

Light PPC: Damage changes are good, all others should have stayed as is. I would have liked to see the light PPC buffed by making it a ton lighter and a slot smaller in addition to the damage changes. This would give it a previously nonexistent niche. Light PPCs are significantly weak.

Heavy PPC: Damage changes are good, and would give the HPPC a real niche. Other values should have stayed the same. Heavy PPC is approximately perfectly balanced.

Snub PPC: Damage increase is good. I would have liked to see a heat reduction as well. Snub PPC is slightly weak.

Clan ER PPC: No changes were necessary, clan ER PPC is a strong weapon that is well balanced.

Gauss Rifle: No changes were necessary, Gauss was roughly balanced.

Light Gauss: Damage increase was welcome, though I argue it should have been a round 10 instead of 11. Cooldown should have stayed extremely low. Light Gauss is extremely weak and needs a significant buff.

Heavy Gauss: No changes were necessary, but the health increase is welcome.

Clan Gauss: No changes were necessary. Clan Gauss was roughly balanced.

AC2: No changes were necessary. AC2 is a strong weapon.

AC5: No changes were necessary. AC5 is a somewhat strong weapon.

AC10: The velocity changes are welcomed. AC10 is a strong weapon otherwise.

AC20: The velocity changes are welcomed. A very slight range boost would benefit this weapon. The AC20 is a slightly weak weapon but does not need much.

Clan AC20: The velocity changes are welcomed. A significant heat reduction would be nice. The clan AC20 is a weak weapon nearly entirely superseded by the Clan Ultra AC20.

MRM Changes Overall:
The missile health changes are welcome. MRM is currently too weak against AMS. ATMs would also benefit from a missile health buff. ATMs should receive no other buffs as they are very strong otherwise.

MASC Changes:
I believe I understand the perspective that these changes were coming from. What I believe people are forgetting is that a significant overhaul of mech mobility is to be coming soon. However, the timing of this change is where I have an issue. For right now, I believe MASC was roughly fine as it was and could use a slight buff. What I would have liked to have seen is to leave MASC alone and implement these changes perhaps at a time AFTER mech mobility is fixed. The added mobility to the average mech would reduce the relevance of MASC overall so using it to sprint as these changes encourage would make more sense. In the current game, the only change I would make to MASC is to raise the damage threshold from 75% to 95% so that the overall duration gets a 20% buff. This would make MASC nearly perfect with the way mech mobility currently stands. Without significant across-the-board mech mobility overhaul, these MASC changes turn any heavy to assault with MASC equipped into more of a torpedo than anything. The changes are not necessary currently and in my opinion should be tabled until after mech mobility has been fixed. If implemented as they will be, mech mobility should be an extreme priority.

New Trial Mechs:
Commando 1D: An excellent addition, though it is missing 3 CT armor which should be removed 1 point from each arm and one from the head.

Jenner F: No particular feedback as I am unfamiliar with the Jenner. A welcome change.

Adder Prime: No particular feedback, though I would have liked to see at least one light with ballistic weaponry.

Jenner IIC Base: The Jenner IIC is an extremely weak mech due to scale issues. It may present a challenge to new players. Nevertheless, the change is welcomed.

Crab 27B: An outstanding choice of a medium mech that fits the current meta.I would have liked to see the heatsinks moved into the side torsos. An extremely strong mech and build that should hopefully be a staple to a lot of players and give them an idea of how to properly pair a weapon to a chassis.

Trebuchet 7M: No particular feedback as I am not familiar with the Trebuchet. However, my perception is that the TBT in general is a considerably weak mech. However, this build appears to be a well intentioned LRM boat with tonnage-appropriate firepower.

Stormcrow Prime: I would have liked to see another chassis instead of another SCR. We already had an SCR trial mech. However, the change is still welcomed as it is a fundamentally different build.

Shadow Cat Prime: This is nearly identical to how I run my Shadow Cat Prime, however, I use an even 5-5-5 back armor instead of 6-4-6, and I use the H right arm for the base armor quirk of +20 to shield, and move that single point of armor back to the head giving it 8. Otherwise I run this build identically to as pictured and it performs well. However, I am concerned with the coming PPC changes that this build will move from serviceable within its own niche to becoming notably weak in performance - as both MASC and the only weapon it carries both are taking what I would consider a hit to performance in this situation. This build is extremely heat limited. It lives on the very edge of too hot to perform and will not be very forgiving to inexperienced players with the new changes. Still, I think having a somewhat risky build in the lineup is nice. The change is welcome but I fear for the future of the Shadow Cat. The Shadow Cat is a somewhat strong mech that may become somewhat weak with the changes.

Grasshopper 5H: A welcome change and a great mech. I would advise again the same as above regarding the PPC changes and potentially weakening this build. Since the Hellbringer already is covering the laser vomit role, however, I would have liked to see at least one Heavy on the IS side using ballistics. I would suggest a RAC 2 Marauder.

Warhammer 6D: A great build and a great mech. This should perform well.

Hellbringer F: Another build that should perform well for new players.

Orion IIC A: I am not intimately familiar with the Orion IIC but the build appears solid on paper. My perception is that the Orion IIC is a somewhat weak mech overall.

Mauler MX90: An awesome build. I would have liked to see some head armor or arm armor removed so that the mech could fit a 325 rated engine, as this is the lightest engine possible to hold 3 heatsink slots and would thus be able to pull that heatsink into the engine. That said, I will likely be trying this one out myself, as AC2 spam on the MX90 is said to be extremely strong. This should perform well for new players and is greatly welcomed.

Stalker 3F: Giving MRMs to a Stalker is a welcome angle. New players would typically relegate the Stalker to an LRM boat for unknown reasons. Nudging them into considering MRMs on a Stalker is a welcome change as the Stalker is a strong mech that does MRM play particularly well. The engine could also have been upgraded to a STD 300 to pull a heatsink in off of one of the arms. This tonnage could come off of the legs. Still, a welcome change as it sits.

Dire Wolf W: A good Dakka build. This should give new players a nice platform on which to throw lots of lead down range. A welcome change.

Warhawk C: Replacing two ER PPCs that would normally go on the build with two large pulse lasers is an unexpected change. The typical build is to run quad ER PPCs on 2+2 or chain fire. This is another build that I am curious what will happen with the new PPC changes coming. I am not intimately familiar with the Warhawk as a chassis. A welcome change.

Bolt On Changes:
No comments to add on these as I do not typically equip bolt ons. I would like to see, as I believe Matt or Daeron mentioned on a stream one time, more bolt ons like the Stryker pack ones, themed more toward the mech's particular feel, over generic items. This is not feedback particularly about this patch, though.

Intro Movie Volume:
A welcome change.

Caustic Valley Lighting:
A welcome change. However, the challenge of nightmode on Caustic was fun while it lasted. I would like to see several versions of the same map with static time (or a randomly picked time once landing on the map, with that time being static through the match) - Believe this has already been talked about and is not something being implemented yet due to resources and priority. The pictures shown look good.

Hibernal Rift Lighting:
A welcome change. Hibernal tends to wash out the screen quite easily as it stands now.

Overall opinion:
I think a lot of the weapon/mech system changes are unnecessary, and some more focus should be put into establishing a niche for currently weak weapons. However, I am excited for changes being made even if they are sub-optimal. I am very excited to be getting new trial mechs.

Hope this helps,
-M5

[Paladin357]

Overall not a fan of the weapon changes, but especially the SNPPC. With an optimal range of 270, it's mostly a brawling weapon and already suffers from high heat production. And the increase in velocity makes no sense as it has little impact at shorter ranges.

Someone mentioned earlier that the MASC change also just doesn't make sense. For the same weight you could just increase the engine size (possibly) and get a speed boost. What makes the MASC more useful is the increased agility.

I do like some of the new trial mechs and, in general, think they are more noob-friendly.

[Z Paradox]

Firewired, on 15 March 2021 - 05:17 PM, said:

All of the pushback and emotional outbursts could have been avoided by simply reviewing the proposed changes with the community before announcing promotion dates to production. This would allow time for discussion, adjustments, compromises, and benefits for everyone involved.

wait... you mean like like they did with FP update? Groups in QP? or some other update? LOL

[Seiys]

Who in this entire thread actually agrees with these changes or asked for these? When and where was it asked for because I apparently missed the memo.

PPC's are already balanced with high heat management and 5 second cooldown (compared to the many other weapon systems that deal equal or more damage with faster reload and far less heat.

Increasing both the heat and cooldown timer on PPC's, as well as the cooldown on Guass, will make them useless. <Unless this is your plan all along? Have to think it is considering what is being proposed here.

I might as well just self-destruct if something comes close and even at range what is the point of using something that takes 7 whole friggin seconds to reload for a measly 12 damage and being incapable of a follow-up shot due to heat.

Kit Fox -c (even with is cooldown buffs on the PPC) is worthless, the Hellbringer that I can currently build and utilize as a PPC brawler (as long as I manage the heat) is gone, Ebon Jaguar with PPC's? Uhhh Nope...

Long story short: DO NOT IMPLEMENT THESE NERFS!

[3RoyalStar1]

Omg yes!! The best trial mechs ever!!

[nopempele]

Martaloc, on 15 March 2021 - 04:33 PM, said:

Remove the Gauss charge that nobody like and buff the clanlasers burntime and remove the ****** minimum range from all missiles( ATM included) and PPC's from IS and Clan side and every player will be happy.

I like the Gauss charge. It's one of the rare ideas that PGI did right and it even makes sense. The Ghost Heat is still incredibly stupid even after all these years. We just learned to live with it, like with a thorn in the boot that you can't get out.

Your ideas are just terrible. You propose to buff already overpowered "instant high alpha damage" weapons even more making all other builds different from Clan ERLL vomit, Clan ATM spammers and PPC poptarts irrelevant. If it's fun for you to play it doesn't mean it's balanced.

[Brokengame]

Please don't touch the weapons or the masc at all that was some of the most gawd awe full changes especially the clan heat increase what the heck are you guys thinking! the Kodiak-1 can barely contain its own heat from 4 small pulse lasers along with other Kodiak line up but 3 and SB........ focus on the maps make it less NASCAR as possible and better drops with the groups instead of dying form the worst drop from the start my guys..... better yet give us the option to deselect and select the maps we want to go before we star the Que search of matches!!!! whats next on your goof ball adventures Nerf double heat sinks or buff it with a 0.0001% up?

[w0qj]

May I propose super-majority community voting/veto (provided that PGI agrees to this):
ie: If >=60% of MWO respondents vote to reject these, then please at least delay the changes and consult more!

1. Put to vote accept/reject this "Weapons Balance Change Pass 1", one single package (take it or leave it) for energy/ballistic/missile changes as currently proposed by MWO on 15-March-2021.
~Need >=60% of MWO respondents vote to reject this "Weapons Balance Change Pass 1".

2. Put up another separate vote accept/reject this "Equipment", one single package (take it or leave it) for MASC change as currently proposed by MWO on 15-March-2021.
~Need >=60% of MWO respondents vote to reject this "Equipment" change for MASC.

I believe that >=60% of MWO Forum community rejection would send a strong message to MWO/PGI to hopefully reconsider, and roll back this change.

tee5, on 15 March 2021 - 01:34 PM, said:

I give you a friendly advice:


Just remove the Weapon-"balance"-changes and the MASC-changes from the Patch.
And give it a good second thought.

Otherwise you will hear a lot of complaints, from a lot of people.

Just swallow your pride and do it.

Edited by w0qj, 15 March 2021 - 05:54 PM.

[mytilus edulis]

M5000, on 15 March 2021 - 05:29 PM, said:

This is certainly an interesting place to start with some of the weapons passes.

I am going to go through the items line by line and give my feedback in the hopes that it can be found useful either by a developer or by a community member. All my "weak vs strong" feedback is in reference to how things feel pre-patch.

Weapon changes:
PPC: Damage changes are good, all others I believe should have stayed as is. PPC was slightly weak.

IS ER PPC: Damage and velocity changes are good. All others should have stayed as is. ER PPC is somewhat weak.

Light PPC: Damage changes are good, all others should have stayed as is. I would have liked to see the light PPC buffed by making it a ton lighter and a slot smaller in addition to the damage changes. This would give it a previously nonexistent niche. Light PPCs are significantly weak.

Heavy PPC: Damage changes are good, and would give the HPPC a real niche. Other values should have stayed the same. Heavy PPC is approximately perfectly balanced.

Snub PPC: Damage increase is good. I would have liked to see a heat reduction as well. Snub PPC is slightly weak.

Clan ER PPC: No changes were necessary, clan ER PPC is a strong weapon that is well balanced.

Gauss Rifle: No changes were necessary, Gauss was roughly balanced.

Light Gauss: Damage increase was welcome, though I argue it should have been a round 10 instead of 11. Cooldown should have stayed extremely low. Light Gauss is extremely weak and needs a significant buff.

Heavy Gauss: No changes were necessary, but the health increase is welcome.

Clan Gauss: No changes were necessary. Clan Gauss was roughly balanced.

AC2: No changes were necessary. AC2 is a strong weapon.

AC5: No changes were necessary. AC5 is a somewhat strong weapon.

AC10: The velocity changes are welcomed. AC10 is a strong weapon otherwise.

AC20: The velocity changes are welcomed. A very slight range boost would benefit this weapon. The AC20 is a slightly weak weapon but does not need much.

Clan AC20: The velocity changes are welcomed. A significant heat reduction would be nice. The clan AC20 is a weak weapon nearly entirely superseded by the Clan Ultra AC20.

MRM Changes Overall:
The missile health changes are welcome. MRM is currently too weak against AMS. ATMs would also benefit from a missile health buff. ATMs should receive no other buffs as they are very strong otherwise.

MASC Changes:
I believe I understand the perspective that these changes were coming from. What I believe people are forgetting is that a significant overhaul of mech mobility is to be coming soon. However, the timing of this change is where I have an issue. For right now, I believe MASC was roughly fine as it was and could use a slight buff. What I would have liked to have seen is to leave MASC alone and implement these changes perhaps at a time AFTER mech mobility is fixed. The added mobility to the average mech would reduce the relevance of MASC overall so using it to sprint as these changes encourage would make more sense. In the current game, the only change I would make to MASC is to raise the damage threshold from 75% to 95% so that the overall duration gets a 20% buff. This would make MASC nearly perfect with the way mech mobility currently stands. Without significant across-the-board mech mobility overhaul, these MASC changes turn any heavy to assault with MASC equipped into more of a torpedo than anything. The changes are not necessary currently and in my opinion should be tabled until after mech mobility has been fixed. If implemented as they will be, mech mobility should be an extreme priority.

New Trial Mechs:
Commando 1D: An excellent addition, though it is missing 3 CT armor which should be removed 1 point from each arm and one from the head.

Jenner F: No particular feedback as I am unfamiliar with the Jenner. A welcome change.

Adder Prime: No particular feedback, though I would have liked to see at least one light with ballistic weaponry.

Jenner IIC Base: The Jenner IIC is an extremely weak mech due to scale issues. It may present a challenge to new players. Nevertheless, the change is welcomed.

Crab 27B: An outstanding choice of a medium mech that fits the current meta.I would have liked to see the heatsinks moved into the side torsos. An extremely strong mech and build that should hopefully be a staple to a lot of players and give them an idea of how to properly pair a weapon to a chassis.

Trebuchet 7M: No particular feedback as I am not familiar with the Trebuchet. However, my perception is that the TBT in general is a considerably weak mech. However, this build appears to be a well intentioned LRM boat with tonnage-appropriate firepower.

Stormcrow Prime: I would have liked to see another chassis instead of another SCR. We already had an SCR trial mech. However, the change is still welcomed as it is a fundamentally different build.

Shadow Cat Prime: This is nearly identical to how I run my Shadow Cat Prime, however, I use an even 5-5-5 back armor instead of 6-4-6, and I use the H right arm for the base armor quirk of +20 to shield, and move that single point of armor back to the head giving it 8. Otherwise I run this build identically to as pictured and it performs well. However, I am concerned with the coming PPC changes that this build will move from serviceable within its own niche to becoming notably weak in performance - as both MASC and the only weapon it carries both are taking what I would consider a hit to performance in this situation. This build is extremely heat limited. It lives on the very edge of too hot to perform and will not be very forgiving to inexperienced players with the new changes. Still, I think having a somewhat risky build in the lineup is nice. The change is welcome but I fear for the future of the Shadow Cat. The Shadow Cat is a somewhat strong mech that may become somewhat weak with the changes.

Grasshopper 5H: A welcome change and a great mech. I would advise again the same as above regarding the PPC changes and potentially weakening this build. Since the Hellbringer already is covering the laser vomit role, however, I would have liked to see at least one Heavy on the IS side using ballistics. I would suggest a RAC 2 Marauder.

Warhammer 6D: A great build and a great mech. This should perform well.

Hellbringer F: Another build that should perform well for new players.

Orion IIC A: I am not intimately familiar with the Orion IIC but the build appears solid on paper. My perception is that the Orion IIC is a somewhat weak mech overall.

Mauler MX90: An awesome build. I would have liked to see some head armor or arm armor removed so that the mech could fit a 325 rated engine, as this is the lightest engine possible to hold 3 heatsink slots and would thus be able to pull that heatsink into the engine. That said, I will likely be trying this one out myself, as AC2 spam on the MX90 is said to be extremely strong. This should perform well for new players and is greatly welcomed.

Stalker 3F: Giving MRMs to a Stalker is a welcome angle. New players would typically relegate the Stalker to an LRM boat for unknown reasons. Nudging them into considering MRMs on a Stalker is a welcome change as the Stalker is a strong mech that does MRM play particularly well. The engine could also have been upgraded to a STD 300 to pull a heatsink in off of one of the arms. This tonnage could come off of the legs. Still, a welcome change as it sits.

Dire Wolf W: A good Dakka build. This should give new players a nice platform on which to throw lots of lead down range. A welcome change.

Warhawk C: Replacing two ER PPCs that would normally go on the build with two large pulse lasers is an unexpected change. The typical build is to run quad ER PPCs on 2+2 or chain fire. This is another build that I am curious what will happen with the new PPC changes coming. I am not intimately familiar with the Warhawk as a chassis. A welcome change.

Bolt On Changes:
No comments to add on these as I do not typically equip bolt ons. I would like to see, as I believe Matt or Daeron mentioned on a stream one time, more bolt ons like the Stryker pack ones, themed more toward the mech's particular feel, over generic items. This is not feedback particularly about this patch, though.

Intro Movie Volume:
A welcome change.

Caustic Valley Lighting:
A welcome change. However, the challenge of nightmode on Caustic was fun while it lasted. I would like to see several versions of the same map with static time (or a randomly picked time once landing on the map, with that time being static through the match) - Believe this has already been talked about and is not something being implemented yet due to resources and priority. The pictures shown look good.

Hibernal Rift Lighting:
A welcome change. Hibernal tends to wash out the screen quite easily as it stands now.

Overall opinion:
I think a lot of the weapon/mech system changes are unnecessary, and some more focus should be put into establishing a niche for currently weak weapons. However, I am excited for changes being made even if they are sub-optimal. I am very excited to be getting new trial mechs.

Hope this helps,
-M5

I agree with pretty much everything here except I'd say IS gauss is maybe 5% too weak pre-patch.

[Oldbob10025]

<a href=<img src=

Lockheed_, on 15 March 2021 - 04:18 PM, said:

Thanks Now I found it

The conversation was I think people like Navid who has cooler heads should be doing the changes as too many people really dont know whats going on

here is the post

Dipstick is just smearing ****.



Then because twitter is so fracking hard to get a point across it goes on saying that people like Navid and calmer minds.

Sad I have to explain this because a guy that didn't have a constructive thought in his head was butt hurt.

Thanks and have a good day

Edited by Oldbob10025, 15 March 2021 - 06:20 PM.

[Far Reach]

You've killed PPC's. I already had to scrape tonnage for extra sinks to cover their already massive heat. Gauss get further drilled into the ground with another two seconds on the cooldown.

Staff acquisition = Good.
Preposterous nerf's = Invalidate the goodwill you just built.

[Tin Roof Rusted]

Tried reading these changes, didn't make it past Gauss.

You haven't even patched game yet and you've ALREADY made Gauss weapon unplayable and useless!

REALLY, 7 SECOND CD???????????????????????????????????

COME ON GUYS, WHO SCREWED THIS UP?

Game play will not be, shoot Gauss once, get up go into kitchen, make coffee, come back to keyboard shoot Gauss again, go to bathroom, come back shoot Gauss...oh wait NVM I'm dead cos I can only shoot 3 times before dead!

Glad I ain't paying to play this!

[DAEDALOS513]

Just curious.. why don't you ask Sean Lang what this game needs?

[Ahh Screw it - WATCH THIS]

BWAHAHHAAHAHAHHAHAH!!!

This is the most PGI patch ever.

[ccrider]

Personally I love this patch. If the salt in-game is as tasty as it is in this thread I'll even buy a Stryker pack; not cause I want it, but because seeing all the crying over cool downs is making me feel tingly in my nether regions.

[Therax]

"Do everything the Gulag says"

Edited by Therax, 15 March 2021 - 06:16 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Barely Good, on 15 March 2021 - 06:06 PM, said:

COME ON GUYS, WHO SCREWED THIS UP?

Honestly, I'm more curious as to WHO DAFUQ ASKED FOR SOME OF THESE CHANGES?

IIRC, nobody asked for increased heat and CD with PPCs, the consensus was it was hot garbage.

People asked for range buff for Gauss, and damage buff with LGR. CD reduction with LPPCs.

[Ahh Screw it - WATCH THIS]

Quote

[color=#00FFFF]Now that these first Weapons and Equipment changes have been implemented, we will be engaging the community directly to determine where we go from here.[/color]

Well, step one is to go back to 3/15/21.

[bad builds bob]

ccrider, on 15 March 2021 - 06:16 PM, said:

Personally I love this patch. If the salt in-game is as tasty as it is in this thread I'll even buy a Stryker pack; not cause I want it, but because seeing all the crying over cool downs is making me feel tingly in my nether regions.

hopefully it helps that 0.7 KDR