172 replies to this topic

[McGoat]

Bowelhacker, on 02 May 2021 - 01:47 AM, said:

Just to be a contrarian, I'm enjoying it significantly less than ever. I'm not precisely sure why but I'm doing much less damage, dying much faster, and rarely ever being on a winning side. Apart from using snub PPCs a bit more I've not changed what I'm doing. It's very frustrating and I can't work it out.

WTF, Cauldron, FIX IT!!!!

Looking at your historical averages not changing what you've been doing is going to result in lower performance as weapons and mobility are given a boost. The lower burn times / higher alphas (even if it's just slight) mean that your mistakes are actually punished, where before you could just waltz around now you have to consider your exposures and positioning more than before.

You just have to assimilate into the new environment and try to improve.

Add me in game and i'll be happy to do some lobbies, share some builds, and do group drops with you.

[Bowelhacker]

You may see me soon then...

[Anomalocaris]

KodiakGW, on 01 May 2021 - 06:30 PM, said:

Bet you if they fixed Soup Queue we would be at 30K+ players. Been seeing a lot of people saying they are going to stop playing because of it.

There are probably a few thousand of us who have already stopped playing because of soup queue and will come back the day we get solo again. It's been awhile for me, but I'm sticking to my guns on not playing till we fix the queues. I don't mind 2 mans in "solo", but everything else should get its own queue.

[Anomalocaris]

Vxheous, on 01 May 2021 - 09:17 PM, said:

I don't know, population started rising April 2020 onwards after the solo and group queues were merged because friends could finally play with friends again without resorting to sync dropping (btw I was against the merge because I knew it was going to be roflstomps, but hey, it let me play with friends again). If PGI re-instituted a group queue, they would have to do it with a FP/Solaris type queue where you can see how many people are queued, and allow solo opt in to jigsaw into full teams, or group queue would just end up being staring at circle warrior again.

Go look at the pop stats again Vx. I don't think they support your statement. Pop climbed March through May. Merge patch was 4/28. After the 30 day soup "trial" in May, numbers dropped 3 of the next 4 months. The only month they climbed was during the PSR reset. They didn't pick back up until after Daeron was hired and have been climbing ever since.

You could argue there are other reasons for the drop, but the facts certainly don't suggest that merge queue was driving population increases. I think it hurt the pop since it screwed up an already compromised matchmaker.

There are groups in nearly every match now. It would be quite easy to institute a 8v8 group queue, especially if we limited groups to 2 or 4 man. If we leave it open to 2,3,4 we would need solo opt-ins to speed up matchmaking. I would suggest PGI try groups of 2,4 only to see what happens, and then work on expanding.

As I stated in my previous post, I think there are quite a few of us waiting on solo queue to come back. Could get another nice population boost.

[Acehilator]

Also just returned, gone since August 2017. No idea why I am T5 now, but I am not going to complain about that, lol.

When did the last Mech come out?

[Alexander of Macedon]

KodiakGW, on 01 May 2021 - 06:30 PM, said:

Bet you if they fixed Soup Queue we would be at 30K+ players. Been seeing a lot of people saying they are going to stop playing because of it.

LMAO what. I honestly don't think we were ever at that level, and the years of bad dev/balance + neglect is what killed pop, not soup queue. People complain about it but keep playing because they mostly understand that it's a necessary evil.

This is not rocket science: splitting queues with <5k regular players = markedly longer queue times = more people quitting.

Split queues and stricter tonnage spreads should be first on the list when there's a large enough population to keep them from hammering queue times; that moment ain't nearly here.

Acehilator, on 02 May 2021 - 07:11 AM, said:

Also just returned, gone since August 2017. No idea why I am T5 now, but I am not going to complain about that, lol.

There was a PSR reset last year alongside changes to the way it's calculated.

Edited by Alexander of Macedon, 02 May 2021 - 07:15 AM.

[w0qj]

Actually there's been a new mech package released two weeks ago, the Stryker Booster Pack for the IS side.
You can still get the time-limited "Pre-Order" bonus is worth getting IMHO (4x items of +5% CBills bonus hanging items called "Mag Pouch", which can be equipped on both IS and Clan mechs).
http://mwomercs.com/stryker
http://mwomercs.com/events/411

There would be a Clan pack coming in a few months too

Acehilator, on 02 May 2021 - 07:11 AM, said:

Also just returned, gone since August 2017.
...When did the last Mech come out?

Edited by w0qj, 02 May 2021 - 07:32 AM.

[Anomalocaris]

Alexander of Macedon, on 02 May 2021 - 07:13 AM, said:

LMAO what. I honestly don't think we were ever at that level, and the years of bad dev/balance + neglect is what killed pop, not soup queue. People complain about it but keep playing because they mostly understand that it's a necessary evil.

This is not rocket science: splitting queues with <5k regular players = markedly longer queue times = more people quitting.

Split queues and stricter tonnage spreads should be first on the list when there's a large enough population to keep them from hammering queue times; that moment ain't nearly here.

Sure we are. We were at 30k players until July 18.

https://leaderboard.isengrim.org/stats

And we have upwards of 3000 players at peak right now if you look at steam charts and multiply by 2 (Russ has said non-steam players are at least equal to if not greater than steam players). Even at lowest off peak times we're around 800-1000 players at one time.

https://steamdb.info.../342200/graphs/

Compare this to where were in February last year. We have almost 3x the average players online and 3x the peak players. We've matched where we were in July 2018. And we aren't far off the averages for 2017. That's plenty of people for a 8v8 group queue without ridiculous wait times. I was playing 12v12 group in 2017-18 and rarely waited more than 3-4 minutes with a 4-6 man drop. If we limit group sizes and go 8v8 matches will kick off even quicker because fitting the puzzle pieces together will be much easier.

https://steamcharts.com/app/342200

It's time. Maybe there's too much on the plate now, but after the quirk and mobility pass, it's time to address the queues again. I quit because soup queue is horrible for solo players. I know many others who have as well. It's not about 99% comp groups. It's about the matchmaker not being able to properly allocate skill between teams. And groups, whether elite or potato, break the matchmaker even more by aggregating substantially better or worse skill on one team. At least with a solo queue, you've got a _better_ shot of splitting skill up equally (although you still get stacked teams of potatoes or unicorns, but it's random rather than deliberate - and it happens less than when you allow groups into matches).

(edit - fixed missing link)

Edited by Anomalocaris, 02 May 2021 - 09:33 AM.

[Vxheous]

Anomalocaris, on 02 May 2021 - 05:22 AM, said:

Go look at the pop stats again Vx. I don't think they support your statement. Pop climbed March through May. Merge patch was 4/28. After the 30 day soup "trial" in May, numbers dropped 3 of the next 4 months. The only month they climbed was during the PSR reset. They didn't pick back up until after Daeron was hired and have been climbing ever since.

You could argue there are other reasons for the drop, but the facts certainly don't suggest that merge queue was driving population increases. I think it hurt the pop since it screwed up an already compromised matchmaker.

There are groups in nearly every match now. It would be quite easy to institute a 8v8 group queue, especially if we limited groups to 2 or 4 man. If we leave it open to 2,3,4 we would need solo opt-ins to speed up matchmaking. I would suggest PGI try groups of 2,4 only to see what happens, and then work on expanding.

As I stated in my previous post, I think there are quite a few of us waiting on solo queue to come back. Could get another nice population boost.

For every person that left due to the soup queue merged, another came back because they could play with friends. The drops between June through September are pretty historically normal (despite COVID) due to summer months (every summer going back as far as 2014 the population always dropped during summer months). Word of mouth also takes time, since not many people that leave the game still pays attention to patch notes (same with Cauldron changes). It's taken me months to convince friends to try the game again since last year, and they're slowly trickling back in.

Even the dips from May through Sept don't really fall below April numbers with the exception of Sept and just barely (14,863 vs 14,116). COVID has a large part to due with people trying out the game again, but what PGI does to keep them is another issue, and not waiting for games is a large part to that.

What I'm guessing would happen is if the current queue is split again into solo and groups, a lot of the current groups would go right back to sync dropping (or stop playing again), and group queue population would die again.

Edited by Vxheous, 02 May 2021 - 09:46 AM.

[pbiggz]

Here we go with this old dead horse again.

The population just more than doubled, and you guys are talking about how people playing in groups should be verbotten.

No other game actually punishes people for playing with their friends and asking for this game to do that again, even more than it still does now, is actual poison for this game.

Edited by pbiggz, 02 May 2021 - 01:06 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

SCRAPMETAL99, on 02 May 2021 - 02:05 AM, said:

thats the point isnt it just how many new players are there or is it just the same players with new alts or is it old players bringing back 2 accounts

i have personally seen this before paid employees making fresh accounts to make the books look good i mean wasnt there a sale of the game gotta make sure those investors are happy riught

PGI staff now making fresh accounts?

That is some high level conspiracy theory if ever I've read it.

[Bowelhacker]

Are there enough PGI staff to make that much a difference even if they were making 30 alts each?

[Monkey Lover]

Seen this before without any new content they will be gone in a month or two at most.

[Vxheous]

Monkey Lover, on 02 May 2021 - 02:50 PM, said:

Seen this before without any new content they will be gone in a month or two at most.

That was the population increase following the announcement of MW5 and mechcon 2017, and then a mass exodus of high skilled players following the bone headed idea of having a stock world championship being announced.

Edited by Vxheous, 02 May 2021 - 03:38 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Vxheous, on 02 May 2021 - 03:37 PM, said:

That was the population increase following the announcement of MW5 and mechcon 2017, and then a mass exodus of high skilled players following the bone headed idea of having a stock world championship being announced.

Sorry but most the population could care less about world championship. This was the failed solaris patch.
https://mwomercs.com...90-17-apr-2018/

3 years later they still haven't fixed the issues with it or even did anything.

but this is just one of many up and down ticks.



Without quarterly updates with new content this will never change.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 02 May 2021 - 04:00 PM.

[Vxheous]

Monkey Lover, on 02 May 2021 - 03:59 PM, said:

Sorry but most the population could care less about world championship. This was the failed solaris patch.
https://mwomercs.com...90-17-apr-2018/

3 years later they still haven't fixed the issues with it or even did anything.

but this is just one of many up and down ticks.



Without quarterly updates with new content this will never change.

Oh yes, forgot about the failed rebrand of Solaris as well. However, this uptick since Sept 2020 hasn't stopped for 7 months, unlike the previous ones.

[Anomalocaris]

Vxheous, on 02 May 2021 - 09:34 AM, said:

For every person that left due to the soup queue merged, another came back because they could play with friends. The drops between June through September are pretty historically normal (despite COVID) due to summer months (every summer going back as far as 2014 the population always dropped during summer months). Word of mouth also takes time, since not many people that leave the game still pays attention to patch notes (same with Cauldron changes). It's taken me months to convince friends to try the game again since last year, and they're slowly trickling back in.

Even the dips from May through Sept don't really fall below April numbers with the exception of Sept and just barely (14,863 vs 14,116). COVID has a large part to due with people trying out the game again, but what PGI does to keep them is another issue, and not waiting for games is a large part to that.

What I'm guessing would happen is if the current queue is split again into solo and groups, a lot of the current groups would go right back to sync dropping (or stop playing again), and group queue population would die again.

Two problems with this approach Vx. First, if we simply traded groups for solos then the merge wasn't really a success, was it? Certainly we didn't see any population improvement based upon the change, and matchmaking quality was hurt by the merge. As for word of mouth, we had 4 months post merge with a declining population. Within 30 days after Daeron was hired population started climbing and has continued to grow. Make of that what you will. (btw I don't credit Daeron's hiring as the sole catalyst here, it is simply the easiest and most visible reference point for the organizational changes PGI made to turn things around)

But the bigger issue I have is that you think if we put together an 8v8 group queue (which was successful in testing), that groups would stop playing or go back to sync dropping. Why? We have the population for an 8v8 queue no problem. Limiting group sizes to current max 4-man means there will be no stacked 8-mans crushing everyone. What would be the motivation to quit if you're getting regular matches with your friends? Isn't that the point? Or is it because a lot of groups think (rightly or wrongly) that they can get a leg up on the solos in soup queue, but if they have to play only against groups they're going to get rolled?

Remember, we have the same population now that we had in late 2018. Group queue was quite decent then as a 12v12 and would be even better now 8v8 with the same numbers of people playing. What would motivate anyone to quit or sync in that case other than fear of having to play on even terms against other groups?

[Vxheous]

Anomalocaris, on 02 May 2021 - 05:25 PM, said:

Two problems with this approach Vx. First, if we simply traded groups for solos then the merge wasn't really a success, was it? Certainly we didn't see any population improvement based upon the change, and matchmaking quality was hurt by the merge. As for word of mouth, we had 4 months post merge with a declining population. Within 30 days after Daeron was hired population started climbing and has continued to grow. Make of that what you will. (btw I don't credit Daeron's hiring as the sole catalyst here, it is simply the easiest and most visible reference point for the organizational changes PGI made to turn things around)

But the bigger issue I have is that you think if we put together an 8v8 group queue (which was successful in testing), that groups would stop playing or go back to sync dropping. Why? We have the population for an 8v8 queue no problem. Limiting group sizes to current max 4-man means there will be no stacked 8-mans crushing everyone. What would be the motivation to quit if you're getting regular matches with your friends? Isn't that the point? Or is it because a lot of groups think (rightly or wrongly) that they can get a leg up on the solos in soup queue, but if they have to play only against groups they're going to get rolled?

Remember, we have the same population now that we had in late 2018. Group queue was quite decent then as a 12v12 and would be even better now 8v8 with the same numbers of people playing. What would motivate anyone to quit or sync in that case other than fear of having to play on even terms against other groups?

Group queue has not been decent since 2017, and 8vs8 felt "ok", but would suffer the same issues of stronger groups roflstomping average groups and chasing them into sync dropping into solo queue. That issue has always existed in group queue, especially during lower population times (late NA, Oceanic). My groups in the past have sent many streamer groups and average groups out of group queue simply because they refuse to play against us more than one time (Nuttyrat and Pseudo98's groups circa 2017 come to mind vs Night Crew). That Night Crew would start playing, and within an hr, queue would be completely dead, load up some streamers, and what do you know, they're all sync dropping now!

As to trading groups for solo's, most online multiplayer games require a "social" aspect, and it's extremely rare for game companies to straight cater to solo play vs group play (they have to achieve some sort of balance between the two). Ultimately, it's what PGI thinks is better for the game, more social interaction and players being able to group AND get games in a reasonable amount of time, or just let that aspect suffer and cater specifically to solo player population.

I don't have a right or wrong answer, and personally, it doesn't matter whether I play in solo queue, group queue, or soup queue, I tend to stomp the opposing team most of the time, but I have the most fun when I can play with my friends AND not wait 15 minutes+ between matches like group queue in the past.

Edited by Vxheous, 02 May 2021 - 06:13 PM.

[Kamikaze Viking]

Ive been having a blast. lots of returning players to play with, and might even have enough to re-form the old ISRC comp team.

I will admit to running 5 alt accounts during the event for all the free Madcat IIb's. But I highly doubt that many people bother to do that enough to skew the 14,000 returning players too much.

Super excited for the mobility pass, and the Canyon Rework. I've seen whats coming and its good.
I just cant wait to get some engineers into the Cauldron when they become available so I can get stuck into improving the spawn points system.

[Anomalocaris]

Vxheous, on 02 May 2021 - 06:05 PM, said:

Group queue has not been decent since 2017, and 8vs8 felt "ok", but would suffer the same issues of stronger groups roflstomping average groups and chasing them into sync dropping into solo queue. That issue has always existed in group queue, especially during lower population times (late NA, Oceanic). My groups in the past have sent many streamer groups and average groups out of group queue simply because they refuse to play against us more than one time (Nuttyrat and Pseudo98's groups circa 2017 come to mind vs Night Crew). That Night Crew would start playing, and within an hr, queue would be completely dead, load up some streamers, and what do you know, they're all sync dropping now!

As to trading groups for solo's, most online multiplayer games require a "social" aspect, and it's extremely rare for game companies to straight cater to solo play vs group play (they have to achieve some sort of balance between the two). Ultimately, it's what PGI thinks is better for the game, more social interaction and players being able to group AND get games in a reasonable amount of time, or just let that aspect suffer and cater specifically to solo player population.

I don't have a right or wrong answer, and personally, it doesn't matter whether I play in solo queue, group queue, or soup queue, I tend to stomp the opposing team most of the time, but I have the most fun when I can play with my friends AND not wait 15 minutes+ between matches like group queue in the past.

I'm sorry man, you know I respect you, but I just don't think your rationale here holds.

You're telling 70-80% of the game population (solo players) that they have to play with groups and suffer the crappy matchmaking (aggregating high or low skill players onto one side of a match rather than trying to split them) because those same group players don't want to deal with aggregating high or low skill players on one side of the match in a group specific queue.

You're saying those same group players will stop playing (or sync drop - which is still better than a soup queue IMO BTW) so it's a bad idea for population to split the queues. But by the same logic forcing a 3x-4x bigger solo population segment into a similar situation isn't bad for population?

I think you see my point here. The same negative things you say would impact groups if we split are impacting solos because we merged. And solos are a much bigger population segment. And in 2017 we only averaged about 10% more players online than we are now. If we add another 10% would be willing to say that splitting to an 8v8 would be reasonable? I mean, same number of players, but with much easier matchmaking for groups. What's not to like?

And I'll go one further. I hate groups in solo, I really do. But I understand compromise is necessary. I've already said I'm open to keeping 2-man groups in "solo" to allow newer or weaker players to coach friends and avoid the more competitive arena that a group queue would be. And I'll suggest even more. If you're going to keep a soup queue you've got to put some more serious limits on groups. Tonnage may need to come way down - I mean like 160 tons for a 2-man and maybe 200-220 tons for a 4-man. Dropping a group in solo should be a challenge for even the most skilled players. Others have suggested, in addition to tonnage reductions, taking max group size down to 3, and even requiring mixed classes for a group drop. Maybe those are ways, but as it stands groups are a cancer in soup queue, whether they are high or low skill. And to keep this thread on topic, if we want to grow the population further, we need to give solo players (the majority of the pop) some love.