172 replies to this topic

[PocketYoda]

I assume its lots of older customers coming back to test the patch.. The real acid test is to see if they stay around after the next two months.

[kentares kodiak]

Im another old timer that came back after almost one year absence to get that free Mad Cat. Not sure if Im going to stay or not... RL depending.

[Vxheous]

Anomalocaris, on 03 May 2021 - 04:07 AM, said:

I'm sorry man, you know I respect you, but I just don't think your rationale here holds.

You're telling 70-80% of the game population (solo players) that they have to play with groups and suffer the crappy matchmaking (aggregating high or low skill players onto one side of a match rather than trying to split them) because those same group players don't want to deal with aggregating high or low skill players on one side of the match in a group specific queue.

You're saying those same group players will stop playing (or sync drop - which is still better than a soup queue IMO BTW) so it's a bad idea for population to split the queues. But by the same logic forcing a 3x-4x bigger solo population segment into a similar situation isn't bad for population?

I think you see my point here. The same negative things you say would impact groups if we split are impacting solos because we merged. And solos are a much bigger population segment. And in 2017 we only averaged about 10% more players online than we are now. If we add another 10% would be willing to say that splitting to an 8v8 would be reasonable? I mean, same number of players, but with much easier matchmaking for groups. What's not to like?

And I'll go one further. I hate groups in solo, I really do. But I understand compromise is necessary. I've already said I'm open to keeping 2-man groups in "solo" to allow newer or weaker players to coach friends and avoid the more competitive arena that a group queue would be. And I'll suggest even more. If you're going to keep a soup queue you've got to put some more serious limits on groups. Tonnage may need to come way down - I mean like 160 tons for a 2-man and maybe 200-220 tons for a 4-man. Dropping a group in solo should be a challenge for even the most skilled players. Others have suggested, in addition to tonnage reductions, taking max group size down to 3, and even requiring mixed classes for a group drop. Maybe those are ways, but as it stands groups are a cancer in soup queue, whether they are high or low skill. And to keep this thread on topic, if we want to grow the population further, we need to give solo players (the majority of the pop) some love.

The split of solos and group populartion is probably closer to 60% solos 40% groups nowadays, considering that you get a 8 solo / 4 group split, to 7 solo / 5 group (2+3) and everyone gets into game within a minute. In fact, the first few days of the cauldron patch, wait times as a group actually went up to 5+ minutes because there were far more groups tham solos that can make the 7-8 solos to launch a game.

My rationale stands because I have witnessed firsthand the death of group queue simply because average to weaker groups break up and immediately sync drop into solo queue the moment strong groups show up to group queue to play in the past. I have no problems with an 8vs8 group queue, my problem is the wait time to get games as there is a large population of players that prefer "easy" games of sync drop, or in their eyes "more balanced" matches than jumping in the shark pool that is group queue. Yes, Im accusing all but the strongest groups of this behaviour, even though some of them will say "no, we don't do that" when in fact after getting stomped once or twice by the likes of EmP, or groups like old night crew, they immediately break up and solo queue sync.

Yes, we see alot of groups now, but if you split the queue, group queue will become a ghost town within a month. These are the same arguments we sae back in 2014 when group queue was created to split from the old soup queue (which was basically the current soup queue). The population was way larger then, although group queue pop got further separated into group queue and community warfare when FP launched, while FP now is also a ghost town.

I would love to see a thriving group queue, but I can't see that actually happening when the majority of groups out there start queue dodging/sync dropping the moment they run into stronger teams

Edited by Vxheous, 03 May 2021 - 06:01 AM.

[Serial Number]

Anomalocaris, on 03 May 2021 - 04:07 AM, said:

And I'll suggest even more. If you're going to keep a soup queue you've got to put some more serious limits on groups. Tonnage may need to come way down - I mean like 160 tons for a 2-man and maybe 200-220 tons for a 4-man. Dropping a group in solo should be a challenge for even the most skilled players. Others have suggested, in addition to tonnage reductions, taking max group size down to 3, and even requiring mixed classes for a group drop.

Could agree with that tbh. There's nothing more "boring" nowadays than seeing 4warhammers or ac2 riflemans being spammed over and over. Altho group of 3-4 with mixed classes and possibly less tonnage would be way better rather than completely getting rid of groups imo.

Edited by Serial Number, 03 May 2021 - 06:42 AM.

[Dogstar]

justcallme A S H, on 01 May 2021 - 12:54 PM, said:

1 account. I even streamed all my games on it in April. About 30-40 games.

People playing on alt accounts is nothing new and people do it month in, month out for events so there is little inconsistency there.

I would not think for a second that "ever man and his dog" suddenly resumed playing on 20 alt-accounts.

So lets just focus on the positive here rather than sensationalist nonsense.

Was it 'justcallme PURITIEN' or something like that? I played a game with someone using that oddly similar to yours moniker.

Edited by Dogstar, 04 May 2021 - 02:02 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Some are fans/mates, some are saltybois that have been stomped...

Here are SOME of them getting around, there have been more.


FWIW - None are me (except top record). Most just farmed T5s for a season I assume.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 04 May 2021 - 03:18 AM.

[Anomalocaris]

Vxheous, on 03 May 2021 - 05:51 AM, said:

The split of solos and group populartion is probably closer to 60% solos 40% groups nowadays, considering that you get a 8 solo / 4 group split, to 7 solo / 5 group (2+3) and everyone gets into game within a minute. In fact, the first few days of the cauldron patch, wait times as a group actually went up to 5+ minutes because there were far more groups tham solos that can make the 7-8 solos to launch a game.

My rationale stands because I have witnessed firsthand the death of group queue simply because average to weaker groups break up and immediately sync drop into solo queue the moment strong groups show up to group queue to play in the past. I have no problems with an 8vs8 group queue, my problem is the wait time to get games as there is a large population of players that prefer "easy" games of sync drop, or in their eyes "more balanced" matches than jumping in the shark pool that is group queue. Yes, Im accusing all but the strongest groups of this behaviour, even though some of them will say "no, we don't do that" when in fact after getting stomped once or twice by the likes of EmP, or groups like old night crew, they immediately break up and solo queue sync.

Yes, we see alot of groups now, but if you split the queue, group queue will become a ghost town within a month. These are the same arguments we sae back in 2014 when group queue was created to split from the old soup queue (which was basically the current soup queue). The population was way larger then, although group queue pop got further separated into group queue and community warfare when FP launched, while FP now is also a ghost town.

I would love to see a thriving group queue, but I can't see that actually happening when the majority of groups out there start queue dodging/sync dropping the moment they run into stronger teams

Well I hope you are wrong. Whether its with a better matchmaker for group queue or another solution. I've received a rather surprising number of messages about this issue and I think that we have a huge untapped number of solo players who are sick of being saddled with groups in soup queue.

The very mechanism you describe - average or lower skill groups seeking to moderate the effect of good groups by dodging (or sync'ing in solo) is so detrimental to population. And with no real group queue, the good groups just follow the crap ones to soup and then solos are forced to deal with the negative game effects of both extremes of group skill because the MM simply can't compensate. And we've already seen multiple posts about people in soup queue trying to unsync from strong 4-mans. So what's really different?

And here's the kicker. A EmP 4-man is still going to win 90% of their matches dropping in soup. And the 40%er potato group is still going to lose far more than they win even with the moderating effect of 8 solos in the mix. So what you're really saying is that they're just hoping that with a larger population they'll dodge that EmP 4-man most of the time. It's not a solution and it's not right.

At least by limiting group sizes to 4-mans in a dedicated group queue, and trying to balance skill on each side, the potato 4-man will have a shot at ending up on either side of the match with the EmP rather than always in opposition (if you allowed 5+ person groups in 8v8, or in current soup where there can be only one 4-man per side). And if we really have 40% of players playing group, then that means even in the worst of population times we have 350-400 group players in queue. That means that even if there are 3 EmP 4-mans dropping, there are 25 8v8 matches to distribute them to. That means you'd have a 12% chance of getting them in a match, and half the time you'd be on their side - you'd only play them 1 in 16 matches. If we actually balance by skill, there may even be an EmP 4-man on each side of the same match. During peak times, there are 3x as many players playing, so its even less of an issue.

Do you really think we'd see sub par groups dropping out if they had to face a 99%er group every 10-15 matches?

[Vxheous]

Anomalocaris, on 04 May 2021 - 01:11 PM, said:

Do you really think we'd see sub par groups dropping out if they had to face a 99%er group every 10-15 matches?

Yes, because EmP is not the only 99% group around, so it would be far more often than 10-15 matches. There are multiple 99% type groups out there, that still don't balance to a EmP group outside of maybe a JGx group nowadays, but those groups (the 00Ps and Goons of the world as an example) will still stomp the rest of the queue. Some of those groups also attempt to queue dodge EmP type groups, at least in the past. If they faced us and they won, they'd take that win and run with it, same if we stomp them. There was rarely ever any rematches (this is my anecdotal evidence that Ive seen in the past)

Edited by Vxheous, 04 May 2021 - 01:31 PM.

[Mal Bolge]

The old group queue was 12v12 right, with no limit to group size? It's no wonder smaller groups were chased away when matches were dominated by groups of 12. Making group queue 8x8 and limiting group size to 4 with some tonnage restrictions, would at least remove that possibility. Chances are that matches will be less lopsided with such limitations, and can't really be compared to the old group queue. It'll be a different animal.

[justcallme A S H]

A group of 12 was quite rare as the Tonnage penalty you paid was significant.


I agree with Vx on the casual groups leaving the Group Queue. I remember back in 2017 this happening regularly. You could have a few streamers on one monitor and within an hour they had stopped grouping and gone to SoloQ once better teams were on the field and 4-5 straight losses.

Of course that isn't representative of what everyone was doing either way within 1-2hrs GroupQ games had gone from 2-4mins out to 15mins pretty quickly. Break up the group and the same names you saw 1hr earlier are now all doing SoloQ Sync Drops.

[KodiakGW]

Anomalocaris, on 04 May 2021 - 01:11 PM, said:

I've received a rather surprising number of messages about this issue and I think that we have a huge untapped number of solo players who are sick of being saddled with groups in soup queue.

Including me. Anyone can take a look at my Jarl's numbers and see I had my worst play experiences ever in April when I was trying to level the two freebie mechs from December, my 2 year old loyalty mechs, and testing some loadouts after the April patch.

Enjoyed the story about how players left for sync dropping in the solo queue when "stronger groups" showed up in the group queue. Therefore killing the group queue. Really got to love when they can't consider what would happen when "stronger groups" start to show up in the only queue available (we all know FP and Solaris are beyond dead). Where are players going to go? Answer: out the door. So I guess, good riddance to them as long as I'm having fun dropping with my friends.

Of course they will always come back with playing with their friends. I enjoy playing with my friends too. But to them I say, you know what I enjoyed equally? Playing AGAINST my friends. One of the most memorable times was a War Thunder game we all dropped into at the same time. We were all on DIscord (yes, Discord can be used for voice comms) and noticed that three of us were on one side, and our group leader was on the other. Having played multiple games together, not one word was uttered. We formed up and started to take a flanking path to find him. When we spotted him, I did a quick maneuver to point him out before going back to flanking. My wingman utter "Yep." Next thing on comms we hear the group leader say "Yeah I see you mother(bleep)ers hunting me. (bleep) you all." Fun and hilarity ensued by ALL of us.

You also had an earlier point about tonnage. For a long time they forced balance based on a 3/3/3/3 design. But, players in 2 man groups can both take 100 tons. So now their balance design is 0/0/0/12? 4 mans can each take 70 tons. So 0/0/12/0? They already said that they can change the tonnage with zero downtime. Time to reevaluate.

[Wid1046]

justcallme A S H, on 04 May 2021 - 02:45 PM, said:

A group of 12 was quite rare as the Tonnage penalty you paid was significant.


I agree with Vx on the casual groups leaving the Group Queue. I remember back in 2017 this happening regularly. You could have a few streamers on one monitor and within an hour they had stopped grouping and gone to SoloQ once better teams were on the field and 4-5 straight losses.

Of course that isn't representative of what everyone was doing either way within 1-2hrs GroupQ games had gone from 2-4mins out to 15mins pretty quickly. Break up the group and the same names you saw 1hr earlier are now all doing SoloQ Sync Drops.

Groups fleeing group queue to do solo drops is still healthier for the game than having those same groups along with solos leave the game entirely to escape the same comp groups. And solos leave the game to escape from groups in general.

We need to get group queue back and I think Krasnopesky's suggestions are likely to be the best and fastest way to get group queue back with reasonable wait times. 8v8 with maximum group sizes of 4 will make matchmaking easier, and I for one would be open to dropping as a solo in group queue if there was a C-Bill boost associated with it. His idea to have maximum wait times and then toss the group into solo anyway if it takes too long is also fine since having a group in solo queue would be the exception, not the rule.

Edited by Wid1046, 05 May 2021 - 07:24 AM.

[pbiggz]

Wid1046, on 05 May 2021 - 07:24 AM, said:

Groups fleeing group queue to do solo drops is still healthier for the game than having those same groups along with solos leave the game entirely to escape the same comp groups. And solos leave the game to escape from groups in general.

We need to get group queue back and I think Krasnopesky's suggestions are likely to be the best and fastest way to get group queue back with reasonable wait times. 8v8 with maximum group sizes of 4 will make matchmaking easier, and I for one would be open to dropping as a solo in group queue if there was a C-Bill boost associated with it. His idea to have maximum wait times and then toss the group into solo anyway if it takes too long is also fine since having a group in solo queue would be the exception, not the rule.

Dog your soup queue doesn't allow groups of more than 4. There is no plague of competitive teams clubbing tier 5 seals. It doesn't happen.

[Saved By The Bell]

After the patch, sniping is too very popular.
I d like to see night fights again.

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 05 May 2021 - 08:00 AM.

[Wid1046]

pbiggz, on 05 May 2021 - 07:38 AM, said:

Dog your soup queue doesn't allow groups of more than 4. There is no plague of competitive teams clubbing tier 5 seals. It doesn't happen.

Instead it's just groups in general being the beginning and the end of whether or not you win the match. If your team has a good group and the other team has a bad one then you'll win, if your team has a bad group and the other team has a good group then you'll lose. It's rare that you can swing the match as a solo player, especially since the groups have their own chat and rarely talk to anyone else. Solo has gotten much worse since soup queue.

Edited by Wid1046, 05 May 2021 - 08:11 AM.

[Leone]

You know, there is actually some skill and tactics involved in this game. Sure, sticking together is an Over Powered approach, specially when the enemy doesn't. But, here's the kicker, you don't hafta be pre grouped to stick with the team.

I mean, I don't, mostly cuz I'm too used to having competent teammates who head to the fight rather'n sit back, but I recognize this is probably why I've a 10% survival rate. There are plenty of good pilots who solo drop and maintain high survival rates. They use other tactics than I do no doubt, so I'd not be able to explain them, But I'm thinking it has something to do with teamwork.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 05 May 2021 - 08:31 AM.

[Doctor Fission]

I came back specifically because of the Cauldron changes that I heard were coming down the pike. So far I'd say 75% of my matches have been solo, and the remainder have been non-meta groups of buddies. Having the ability to drop with friends is a huge draw for me personally.

That being said, I hate getting roflstomped by EMP, JGx, and 228 roll teams, but honestly that's a fair price to pay for being able to drop with friends, I think.

[Surefoot]

MechaGnome, on 03 May 2021 - 04:39 AM, said:

I assume its lots of older customers coming back to test the patch.. The real acid test is to see if they stay around after the next two months.

I am in this situation exactly. Didnt have any issue with groups in QP, at least didnt notice a win/loss pattern due to their presence, I guess most of them are just friends playing together..
My issue with QP and what made me leave the game (and will make me leave again soon i guess) is the RNG matchmaker that will put me with complete vegetables that just stand there in the open waiting for death, or for one of their suicidal teammates to "get locks" for their lrms so they can shoot them repeatedly at terrain in the case of lurmers. Or teams just not caring the least about the game and not even trying to get into the domination circle - been in quite a few of these 1 minute games. After a while I may or may not have legged AFK assaults and other passive teammates. That was the signal for me that this game was not for me anymore and moved on. MW5 being a complete disaster and having completed the BT game all over with its expansions, I needed my stompy robots fix, there was this patch, made me curious, but it seems the average player behaviour is still the same and my rotten luck has me drop with these people vs organized, target calling teams.
Oh one new thing different from 3 years ago is nascar, this was not prevalent at all (not talking about the correct "death ball" but the 1 by 1 long queue that goes and suicide against a fire line after lapping the center feature of the map), now i've lapped a few maps in record times with the red team doing the same, with the fastest team winning the game obviously (shooting the stragglers in the back..) or of course red teams that just created a firing line. Done a really mind boggling, almost hilarious lap of Grim Hex with 2 Atlas before getting finished one by one by a red team that just took the high ground and stayed there. This will grow old really fast too as people dont even listen to calls of turning around and stopping to shoot.
People not even trying to play the game is what made me quit, and this has not improved as it seems...

Edited by Surefoot, 05 May 2021 - 09:26 AM.

[pbiggz]

Wid1046, on 05 May 2021 - 08:08 AM, said:

Instead it's just groups in general being the beginning and the end of whether or not you win the match. If your team has a good group and the other team has a bad one then you'll win, if your team has a bad group and the other team has a good group then you'll lose. It's rare that you can swing the match as a solo player, especially since the groups have their own chat and rarely talk to anyone else. Solo has gotten much worse since soup queue.

That's anecdotal at best, and also not the topic of this thread. This old trope needs to be buried deep, because its a conspiracy theory that at worst will motivate people to ask PGI to make this game worse.

[Vlad Ward]

MechaGnome, on 03 May 2021 - 04:39 AM, said:

I assume its lots of older customers coming back to test the patch.. The real acid test is to see if they stay around after the next two months.

I mean, if development on the game dies after 2 months I fully expect folks to leave again. The real real acid test is whether the game continues to be dynamic, be interesting, and draw old players back every month.

No one gets a lolly for sticking around when things are dull.