172 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

I don't really play QP, solo or group, so I'm not against any proposal. I only want what is best for the population, which I measure as month-to-month retention rates.

[Leone]

Wid1046, on 06 May 2021 - 08:22 AM, said:

1) 8v8 instead of 12v12 in order to speed up matchmaking
2) Limiting group sizes to a maximum of 4 to speed up matchmaking (this is the same limit as currently in soup queue)
3) Allowing solo players to opt-in to be placed in group queue matches (there would be a C-bill incentive to playing in a group queue match as a solo player, and solo players would still normally be put into solo matches any time when they are not needed by the group queue matchmaker)
4) There would be a 5 minute maximum wait time before any groups that have been waiting that long are placed into a solo queue match anyway (groups being in solo queue would be the exception, not the rule)

Wid1046, on 06 May 2021 - 08:22 AM, said:

Do you still think that the problems with wait time in the old system will still be there?

Yes. Sure, they wont be as bad, I see alot of ideas to mitigate the added wait times. But they'll still be there. We already have four queues.

Solaris, 1v1, It's dead, leastwise whenever I check it is.
Faction Warfare 12v12 with respawns and an emphasis on teamwork. It's mostly dead, but if you get on during a prime time, you can get glorious glorious matches! Sometimes.
Comp Play. 8v8 Team format! Hmmm, sounds suspiciously familiar... Also, no teams in queue right now, but looking at the leaderboards it looks like they get some play in. Just probably not constant games.
And finally, Quickplay. 12v12. ~bout three minutes of wait time from launch, matchmaking through map selection to boots on the ground, for ~three minutes of gameplay. Of course, I only solo drop Quickplay, so I'd gather it takes even longer getting a group together and all readied up and everything, what with people always wanting to mess with thier mechs whilst everyone else waits.

I mean, if I can get a group together we might as well drop in Faction Warfare.

So, for some strange reason I still don't understand you wanna take people currently playing and having fun in quickplay and kick them out into some fifth Comp prep queue or something? Which would slow down the quickplay matchmaking, since, you know, less folk to match. And then extend their own matchmaking upto five minutes.

The only reason or end goal I can see here is an attempt to get more people to leave to hurt the game. It feels like a lose/lose situation to me. Neither side gains anything.

~Leone.

[Anomalocaris]

justcallme A S H, on 05 May 2021 - 02:26 PM, said:

How do you know Solos are leaving because of groups?
How many players returned because they could play with friends again?
How many high skill groups are out there impacting game outcomes?
How many casual groups are out there just playing/shooting and not impacting games outcomes?


Can you answer any of those questions accurately? If you can't, you really cannot be saying anything of the above.
I don't believe at all there high skill groups are 9/10 matches like many people suggest is happening - it's just improbable. I mostly see just casual units playing as a group and not overly impacting their outcomes when I'm looking at Streamers and other screenshots from friends or if I'm dropping on an Alt in the more common tier - that is, Tier 3.

The idea of 8v8 OPT-IN was an idea a number of us were saying prior to the entire merger. Oddly enough it was mostly high skill players all saying the same thing at the same time and this was (at that time) with little coordination. No Cauldron discord, MWO Comp discord channels etc etc. People just 'felt' what would work.

I left because of groups. And plenty more people have messaged me that they no longer play or have reduced their playing time because of it. So there is a component of the population that won't tolerate a soup queue. I will no longer argue with room temperature IQ window lickers who like their own posts (you know who you are), but I will engage with you Ash because I respect your contribution to the game and I know you have had serious issues with the implementation of soup queue since the beginning. I feel like you're being honest and dealing in good faith.

As you and I have discussed, the population dropped after the queue merge. This is a fact. Had it not been for the PSR reset and the bump associated with that, we would have experience 4 straight months of declines post queue merge.

I have seen some argue that such a decline was just seasonal. I have some say it was because the Covid bump was over. All we do know is that population steadily dropped post merge until PGI announced the restart of development and onboarding Daeron. I am very disinclined to believe the other excuses posited for this decline simply because (1) seasonality is not particularly consistent historically and we only have a few years of data to look at (2) Covid impacts were still in strong effect over much of the world in summer 2020.

But even if were to believe that it was seasonality or somesuch reason, the fact that we didn't continue to gain population post merge suggests that it didn't help increase player numbers. Rather, that we traded group players for solo players. The fact that new player numbers remained nearly flat until after the September announcement further supports this theory.

Finally, please stop reinforcing the misconceptions about high skill groups being the problem. Low skill groups are at least a big a problem (IMO, a bigger problem). The problem really isn't even high or low skill, it's aggregating that skill on one side of the match in a way the matchmaker cannot compensate for. Every player has an impact on the match - casual, serious, or drunk potato. And groups have a bigger impact when their skill deviates from the match average. Our matchmaker is bad enough, groups, by their very nature, make it worse if their average skill is different than the total match average. I don't see how you can argue otherwise. Without secondary lobby balancing, PGI will never be able to compensate for groups properly. Tell me I'm wrong.

For those concerned with match making times. As a Tier1 solo player pre-PSR reset, even during the trough of Feb 2020, I rarely experienced waits over 2 min on NA server prime time. Even at 2-3am they were rarely over 3-4 minutes. Now the population is substantially larger and with a modified 8v8 group queue with 4 man teams max, wait times should simply not be an issue. Even during the lowest pop time of day we are averaging 50%+ more players than we averaged over the course of a day in Feb 2020. In fact lowest pop these days is often above the highest recorded pop number for the entire month of Feb 2020 according to steamcharts.

I would rather have a completely random solo matchmaker than have to deal with groups in soup queue. Because as the poster who mentioned a deck of cards adroitly pointed out, at least it's random chance with the former if you get potatoes or elites. With groups its often like someone slipped you a joker (or an ace) from the bottom of the deck.

[Anomalocaris]

Nightbird, on 06 May 2021 - 01:26 PM, said:

A matchmaker improvement alone would improve the quality of matches from about 28/100 today to 75/100 with groups and solos queuing together. Splitting solos and groups would result in a large reduction in quality for both since every skill tier will have fewer players requiring a larger skill band on each team for a game to start. In such a situation, even if the teams are balanced, the less skilled players on each team will be frustrated.

Furthermore 8vs8 will make it more difficult for the MM to balance a particularly good group. For example, 4-man top tier comp players in a group, in 12vs12 the matchmaker has 20 players to work with to make balanced teams. In 8vs8 it will only have 12 players, a severe reduction. That 4-man in 12v12 combined queue may attain a 2 or 3 WLR ratio with a good MM, but in 8vs8 split queue may get a 20 or 30 WLR, and drive all others from the queue.

You know I agree with you on matchmaker issues Nightbird. But I think you're tilting at windmills here. PGI has shown no ability (or willingness) to implement a better matchmaker. As such the best solution is probably Krasnopesky's queue split proposal.

[Nightbird]

As long as you're OK with worse retention rates afterwards *shrug*

[justcallme A S H]

Wid1046, on 06 May 2021 - 06:42 AM, said:

Yeah, we're waiting too. You've provided none of the stats or numbers that you've been demanding of others to back up your opinion, nor are you asking for them from people who agree with you. You claim that people left group queue due to groups, but if someone points out that the same is likely to happen to solo queue you demand that they provide statistics on the reasons why people have left the game.

The GroupQ dying already happened though? We already know why dating back to 2017. It's why the Q was merged in the first place as no one could group and play with friends and it had been like that for a long time.

The population after SoupQ - Apr 2020 - climbed. Then flip-flopped month after month and at no point did it go lower than the lowest point. Overall more stayed than left. You can't say otherwise the numbers have been there for a year now so stop saying I need to prove what is already known.





The core issue is - prove what you are saying as I cannot for the life of me find anything to support your argument and believe me - I'm looking. I am always questioning my view with so much changing so rapidly.

Please show us where are the players leaving? Ruining the queue - where is the data to point to all of this? After 3 pages now I don't understand the reluctance to show how you've come to the conclusions you have?

[justcallme A S H]

Anomalocaris, on 06 May 2021 - 04:05 PM, said:

Finally, please stop reinforcing the misconceptions about high skill groups being the problem. Low skill groups are at least a big a problem (IMO, a bigger problem). The problem really isn't even high or low skill, it's aggregating that skill on one side of the match in a way the matchmaker cannot compensate for.

I agree with many parts of your post, we both know that. Totally respect the fact you don't want to play and making a stand. Your choice, absolutely.


To the above - all I see is the high skill groups being the predominant antagonist by a sizeable margin. In lower tier games with lower tier groups, streamers and so on... I've rarely, very rarely seen any of them exert enough force to impact a match.

Actually I just had an idea. Look at it another way.

While they are in a 4-man group they will behave as solo players. That is probably a more accurate description of it. Their builds are not synergised, they aren't drop calling, they are all spread over 2-3 map squires (1200m). The WLRs aren't being massively altered or anything that I can tangibly see. They all still lose more than they win - grouped or not, its very same same.

I'm happy to have my view changed here, again being open minded, if people can demonstrate it.


FWIW - T1/T2 games in Oceanic are getting back out to 5-8mins again at times despite population increasing. I really wish there was data available from PGI, a lot more, surrounding Groups vs Solos, wait times vs population and many more. It would really help clear a lot of unknowns up.

[BigJimJack]

It has been a few years and she has a few miles on her.... I put my neurohelmet on and plug in my cooling vest then run my hand lovingly on the control sticks for a few moments... I punch the power button and feel the vibrations along with some heat from the powered up fusion plant. Bitching Betty asks for verbal command to release control to me. I then proclaim. "The most Average Player has returned!!!" I push the sticks forward and we slowly roll out, but then quickly build up to 60kph. Battle awaits me yet again!

[Nightbird]

Here's the steam numbers for the past 3 years. You can see a clear covid bounce but it may be peaking in May. Or it may continue to go up because of vaccine shortages. In either case the peak should happen between now and July/August.

[Bowelhacker]

justcallme A S H, on 05 May 2021 - 02:26 PM, said:

Can you answer any of those questions accurately? If you can't, you really cannot be saying anything of the above.
I don't believe at all there high skill groups are 9/10 matches like many people suggest is happening - it's just improbable. I mostly see just casual units playing as a group and not overly impacting their outcomes when I'm looking at Streamers and other screenshots from friends or if I'm dropping on an Alt in the more common tier - that is, Tier 3.

I thought you didn't have any alts?

[Vxheous]

Bowelhacker, on 08 May 2021 - 01:34 AM, said:

I thought you didn't have any alts?

He didn't until about a month ago when he started an experiment to see how many games it would take to go from tier 5 to tier 1 in a fresh account. It's all streamed on his twitch channel, there's no hiding his alt name.

[Bowelhacker]

Vxheous, on 08 May 2021 - 01:46 AM, said:

He didn't until about a month ago when he started an experiment to see how many games it would take to go from tier 5 to tier 1 in a fresh account. It's all streamed on his twitch channel, there's no hiding his alt name.

Ah, that "1 account" thing was just the 1 alt. Gotcha.

[justcallme A S H]

Bowelhacker, on 08 May 2021 - 01:34 AM, said:

I thought you didn't have any alts?

How do you figure that?


In 2019 after a number of false statements/misinformation by one individual about Tiers and how they worked. So of course I tested it and documented on the forums HERE, I also streamed it.

As Vx said also recently made an Alt to again test after the other recent changes to Tiers. I streamed some of that as well and will continue to do so when I have time, albeit I am time limited so it's taken a bit of a backseat to Cauldron business among other things.

[Zordicron]

Well hey I came back, I played since Beta.
Then I left because other games came out I wanted to play. That was about when everyone was leaving.
I am back now because I have cleaned up my backlog of other games, and MWO fills my desire for an action game.

Thats it. No really, all the covid nonsense, talk about working on the game.... yeah that's all a coincidence. And I bet I am not alone here, when people were leaving there was A LOT of games on console and several on PC that were just begging for attention. I would say last gen consoles were right at their peak as far as the games releasing, especially PS4.

As for the recent changes, it hasn't changed what I play, but i will say many of my favorite mechs and loadouts got some serious buffs. I had to add a ton of ammo to my twin Rac5 Muromets which was unexpected and rather fun. SO they are on the right track there. Especially noticed allowing the extra PPC and LL without ghost heat- seems to have provided a robust counter to the heavy dakka boats. There's enough mid/long range alpha power on the field now to keep the dakka guys from being to brazen, they can't auto-win a trade off anymore.

I do think going back to 8v8 would benefit the game, but I know some people don;t like the idea. I just remember the extra freedom of movement on the map it allowed way back when, and I think it would curb nascar.

Anyway, all the group in solo quickplay discussion is nice, but really it is rare to see even a 4 man interfere with a match.... in a positive way for their own team. Usually they ignore the pugs and act like they can go 4v12 and rambo off somewhere and get ganked. I think 8v8 would help with that too.

That's my opinion anyway as a long timer. I don;t get on the forums much but I thought I would come see what people have to say about the patch and I saw this thread. Glad to see more oldie players like me are coming back to wreck it in (P) mechs and (I) mechs again.

[Vercors]

Anomalocaris, on 03 May 2021 - 04:07 AM, said:

And I'll go one further. I hate groups in solo, I really do. But I understand compromise is necessary. I've already said I'm open to keeping 2-man groups in "solo" to allow newer or weaker players to coach friends and avoid the more competitive arena that a group queue would be. And I'll suggest even more. If you're going to keep a soup queue you've got to put some more serious limits on groups. Tonnage may need to come way down - I mean like 160 tons for a 2-man and maybe 200-220 tons for a 4-man. Dropping a group in solo should be a challenge for even the most skilled players. Others have suggested, in addition to tonnage reductions, taking max group size down to 3, and even requiring mixed classes for a group drop. Maybe those are ways, but as it stands groups are a cancer in soup queue, whether they are high or low skill. And to keep this thread on topic, if we want to grow the population further, we need to give solo players (the majority of the pop) some love.

There is an other option:

Vorpal Puppy, on 16 December 2020 - 10:51 AM, said:

Remove the guarantee that everyone grouped up will end up on the same team! They will just be in the same game.

In quick play, this solution have at lest two advantages:
- don't split again grouped and solos for less waiting time before a match.
- PGI can make a matchmaker with a better repartition according to the skill of the players.

And for those who want to play in group in the same team, there is faction play.

[Vxheous]

Vercors, on 31 May 2021 - 10:16 PM, said:

There is an other option:

In quick play, this solution have at lest two advantages:
- don't split again grouped and solos for less waiting time before a match.
- PGI can make a matchmaker with a better repartition according to the skill of the players.

And for those who want to play in group in the same team, there is faction play.

Bad idea, because people want to play with their friends on the same team. If friends wanted to fight each other, private lobbies exist, without needing to go into quick play. Faction play is garbage for the most part, which is why less than 10% of the population plays it. 90% of faction play games are decided in wave 1, which is the first 5 minutes of a FP match, and the next 20-25 minutes is just a formality.

Edited by Vxheous, 31 May 2021 - 11:07 PM.

[Kanil]

I wonder how many of those people don't play FP because they dislike being a solo squaring off against (and getting stomped by) a group? Mixing up group and solo players in general also seems like a bad idea. Leaving group queue completely desolate preventing everyone from playing with their friends altogether's pretty bad too. We're pretty much just stuck choosing between bad ideas at this point, trying to find the least bad one.

Personally, I'm fine with occasionally squaring off with my friends if matchmaker can't figure out any other way to get a balanced match with the pieces it has available to it.

[Vercors]

Vxheous, on 31 May 2021 - 11:06 PM, said:

Bad idea, because people want to play with their friends on the same team.

I'm not sure about that, i believe friends can have fun figthing each other.

I understand your argument for faction play (because i don't play it). An other option is to do what i say before and recreate a split quick play for grouped players only (maybe limited to 8 vs 8). If waiting time is too long in grouped players only, they can alway come in solo quick play and play with their friends without the assurance being in the same team.

edit: also people speak about 8vs8 or 12vs12. 7vs7 or 9vs9 or something else isn't an option? by this way we can mix even and odd groups.

Edited by Vercors, 31 May 2021 - 11:47 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Vercors, on 31 May 2021 - 11:31 PM, said:

I'm not sure about that, i believe friends can have fun figthing each other.

You would be very, very limited in that view.

Units, Streamers and even just the more casual players - like to group and play with their friends - not a random "assigning" of them on varying teams.

If a game did that - I'd simply stop playing it. I don't group up to be split up - that is just pants on head

[AnAnachronismAlive]

While I personally agree with most of Krasno-poke-sky's proposals, what kinda keeps bothering me is the potential reduction of players per match (12v12 to 8v8). While I heard it was once the status quo anyhow, the test-phase about a year ago did not feel that bad at all and I certainly see the benefits lower player numbers per match may imply for the number of matches available (+ a appropriate placement of players in each match), I - mebbe even for irrational reasons - kinda appreciate the 12v12 format for a certain degree of randomness/chaotic factors it actually adds to matches. Like even when you identified the whereabouts of the bulk of opfor's mechs, ye still got yer senses tingling since there could be a light pack roaming in your flank or get yer back.

I get that lowering player numbers per team will improve the impact one player has or can have on the outcome of a match and that this may imply "feeling good since your actions matter more", on the other hand I fear it would make some degree of randomness go missing that - as odd as it may sound - I learned to like about MWO.

Just my two cents though. Mebbe 8v8 is a fair price to pay for the benefits implied.

Edited by AnAnachronismAlive, 01 June 2021 - 01:16 AM.