126 replies to this topic

[YouKnowNothing]

Escef, on 16 May 2021 - 11:08 AM, said:

My logic is that I'm calling you hypocrites. Virtue signal as much as you like, but virtue signaling about how bad virtue signaling is really only paints you as intellectually deficient rubes.



Whatever you say, rube.

My logic is that by the same principles you're calling us out as hypocrites you're also calling yourself a hypocrite. That being said, I'm perfectly fine with this.

Edited by YouKnowNothing, 16 May 2021 - 11:12 AM.

[Escef]

Jables McBarty, on 16 May 2021 - 11:05 AM, said:

If it's a coincidence then there should be no issue in changing it.

Except that "Grand" has become a bit of a slang term in the table top community for replacing an AC5 with a PPC. The ZEU-6S mounts an AC5, but the ZEU-6T has the nickname of "Grand Zeus" because it swaps the AC5 for a PPC.

[Heavy Money]

There's tons of things in fantasy and other fictional settings that happen to be the same as KKK ranks. Deleting these things from the culture just because they used the same name is giving them more power over us. I'm sure there's many more things that some racist or otherwise evil group has used over the years, and we don't even hear about it. Obsessing over stuff like this causes the Streisand Effect, and just boosts its notoriety.

The Atlas has a Deaths Head and is used by a German inspired faction. Some {Godwin's Law} soldiers in WW2 also wore skull icons on their hats (following a tradition of the Prussian military hundreds of years old.) Do we need to delete the Atlas and the Steiner faction now? Had you even thought of this association before? Would you ever have done so without it being pointed out?

[Novakaine]

All Clans mechs must go!

Edited by Novakaine, 16 May 2021 - 11:58 AM.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

Heavy Money, on 16 May 2021 - 11:16 AM, said:

There's tons of things in fantasy and other fictional settings that happen to be the same as KKK ranks. Deleting these things from the culture just because they used the same name is giving them more power over us. I'm sure there's many more things that some racist or otherwise evil group has used over the years, and we don't even hear about it. Obsessing over stuff like this causes the Streisand Effect, and just boosts its notoriety.

The Atlas has a Deaths Head and is used by a German inspired faction. Some {Godwin's Law} soldiers in WW2 also wore skull icons on their hats (following a tradition of the Prussian military hundreds of years old.) Do we need to delete the Atlas and the Steiner faction now? Had you even thought of this association before? Would you ever have done so without it being pointed out?

Immagine all the medicine and engeneering results that you have to delete because they were invented by actual {Godwin's Law}.

[Escef]

Heavy Money, on 16 May 2021 - 11:16 AM, said:

Deleting these things from the culture just because they used the same name is giving them more power over us.

And this is a legitimate argument. The folks just giving the OP crap aren't making arguments, they're just expressing emotional reactions and attacking because they feel some aspect of their hobby is threatened.

And the idea that we don't change because bad people happen to use or like something we use or like because we don't want them to define us is perfectly valid. Hell, I've been using a cluster of 3 Norse runes as part of my signature for over 20 years, should I change my signature just because a bunch of white supremacists have a hard on for Norse culture? Because I'm not changing it.

[Jables McBarty]

ScrapIron Prime, on 16 May 2021 - 09:27 AM, said:

Sure, nobody was a paragon of inclusivity back in the 80’s and 90’s, but FASA was better than most. Between Battletech and Shadowrun, most cultures and ethinicities got portrayed fairly positively.

This is why I am surprised that the MWO community today is so reactionary. This game was fairly progressive 40 years ago.

And yet the forums collectively shat their diapers when HBS added pronouns to BT.

[JaxomRahl]

Judging by the sheer quantity of false equivocation and whataboutism present in this thread, I suspect any attempt at discussion is going to fall on deaf, and likely disrespectful, ears here. That said:

Things that happened, or were named, in the past are not immune to change. Something that was not considered tone deaf in the 80s and 90s, but was revealed to be insensitive or underwent a cultural shift should be reevaluated as time progresses.

Additionally, while it is great that some of you can quote the lore, dig up the original context of the mechs inception, or spuriously point to the fact that dragons are from fantasy, how things look to an outsider is important. To someone who is not a devotee to BattleTech, learning that a game released a new mech named Grand Dragon signals a high level of insensitivity or complacency to the horrors of the Ku Klux Klan and the atrocities committed by Grand Dragons (see anyone of these men's profiles).

Lastly, holding onto white supremacy terminology degrades the community and could attract white supremacy sympathizers to the community. I was appalled when reading the thread for the Stryker pack that someone in the community could find humor in a streamer making light of the connotation of the name and appreciated them indicating it should be renamed:

Luci Morningstar, on 21 February 2021 - 09:09 AM, said:

Maybe...just change the name "Grand Dragon" to....something else? LMAO
Snuggles Time cracked me up stating we would have to paint it white. Yeah....maybe not such a good name.

Asking for PGI to show a modicum of sensitivity to the level of tone deafness required to carry along the name Grand Dragon from lore is not too much to ask. I would absolutely report any DRG-5K pilot that had painted their mech white because the connotation is so clear. This is not an acceptable trait for a game to have.

I would absolutely support renaming the mech.

[Jables McBarty]

YueFei, on 16 May 2021 - 10:56 AM, said:

Hey, whilst you're tilting at windmills, why don't you go threaten to withhold your business from these guys:
http://www.granddragonhotel.com/

martian, on 16 May 2021 - 09:06 AM, said:

The Dragon is the symbol of the Draconis Combine. See this link: Japanese dragon

The creators of the BattleTech value the culture of Japan so much that they used the Japanese deity as the symbol of one part of their fictional universe.

The Draconis Combine, its spirit and the Coordinator of the Draconis Combine are often referenced as "the Dragon".

DRG-1G Grand Dragon is the improved model of DRG-1N Dragon.The Dragon BattleMech has been in BattleTech since 1986.

The BattleMech is named after a mythical Japanese animal that symbolizes the spirit of the Draconis Combine.

FLG 01, on 16 May 2021 - 09:31 AM, said:

...otherwise it is just a coincedence like all the Grand Dragon hotels in Asia, the senior rank in the IDBF or the enemy from Final Fantasy.

And if it truly was a reference: Why then only one Mech and not more? Why only that of a faction that's bascially 80ies Space Japan?

The beauty of translating between two languages that come from entirely unrelated language families is that you have a lot of editorial flexibility. I'd say Magnificent Dragon or Great Dragon are probably better English names for such hotels. Especially if you wanted to open one in, say, Atlanta or Detroit.

But also, FASA & PGI aren't Vietnamese or Japanese. They are North American companies and the majority of their playerbase comes from the (North American) anglosphere.

x Deathstrike x, on 16 May 2021 - 09:38 AM, said:

Yes exactly. Next thing will be we need more female representation among the mechs i.e. mechs with boobs.
And transgender mechs and gender fluid mechs...
Holy NASCAR god batman...

This is super off-topic, but what gender do you think the Raven, Locust, Rifleman, Catapult, Timerwolf, etc are?

As for humanoid 'mechs, most of them have narrow waists and larger hips. I'd say the gender of a 'mech is in the eye of the beholder. I'd say we already have femme & trans 'mechs in the game.

Or, I'm sorry, does that trigger you?

[Spheroid]

Lore > your fragile feelings.

"Grand" is a generic superlative and dragon is a mythological concept that has existed for thousands of years. Draco or draconic is the animalistic representation of the Kuritan state.

Grand in this instance is no different from "Mega" or "Super". This Grand Dragon is indeed so because PPCs are vastly better than AC-5. The name is apt and appropriate. Why not go after the word wizard or imperial since those are more common than dragon in KKK land?

Also leave this forum you are mucking up the place. Go play Fortnite or Minecraft.

Edited by Spheroid, 16 May 2021 - 11:53 AM.

[Jables McBarty]

Heavy Money, on 16 May 2021 - 11:16 AM, said:

Deleting these things from the culture just because they used the same name is giving them more power over us.

The title of this thread is "Grand Dragon Needs A Name Change" not "Delete the Grand Dragon From the Game."

Spheroid, on 16 May 2021 - 11:44 AM, said:

Grand in this instance is no different from "Mega" or "Super".

Great, I like Mega Dragon just fine.

[Escef]

Spheroid, on 16 May 2021 - 11:44 AM, said:

Also leave this forum you are mucking up the place.

The reactionaries are doing more to muck up the place than the OP.

[JaxomRahl]

Escef, on 16 May 2021 - 11:29 AM, said:

And this is a legitimate argument. The folks just giving the OP crap aren't making arguments, they're just expressing emotional reactions and attacking because they feel some aspect of their hobby is threatened. And the idea that we don't change because bad people happen to use or like something we use or like because we don't want them to define us is perfectly valid. Hell, I've been using a cluster of 3 Norse runes as part of my signature for over 20 years, should I change my signature just because a bunch of white supremacists have a hard on for Norse culture? Because I'm not changing it.

I agree that we shouldn't change ourselves for every possible connection our interests have with bad people, but I do think there is a tipping point at which certain associations cannot be ignored. I'd generally say if the first result of a Google search is the KKK's highest rank, then steps should be made to distance yourself.

[JediPanther]

JaxomRahl, on 16 May 2021 - 11:39 AM, said:

Asking for PGI to show a modicum of sensitivity to the level of tone deafness required to carry along the name Grand Dragon from lore is not too much to ask. I would absolutely report any DRG-5K pilot that had painted their mech white because the connotation is so clear. This is not an acceptable trait for a game to have.

I would absolutely support renaming the mech.

Just wondering if you report any mech painted white as well or just that very specific mech. Dam it Jarvis I said quit painting all my 40 lights white! I might offend some one! In fact paint them BLACK!

Irony that one of my siblings is color blind and here is this thread about color(s).

[Jables McBarty]

Storming Angel, on 16 May 2021 - 09:55 AM, said:

Too be fair the fact that name makes you think of the KKK says more about you than it does about anyone else.

Yes, it means that I am loosely familiar with the history of the United States and that I think the KKK is bad.

Is this supposed to be a jab?

[Escef]

JediPanther, on 16 May 2021 - 11:55 AM, said:

Just wondering if you report any mech painted white as well or just that very specific mech. Dam it Jarvis I said quit painting all my 40 lights white! I might offend some one! In fact paint them BLACK!

Irony that one of my siblings is color blind and here is this thread about color(s).

Bad faith argument is in bad faith.

[Leone]

JaxomRahl, on 16 May 2021 - 11:51 AM, said:

I agree that we shouldn't change ourselves for every possible connection our interests have with bad people, but I do think there is a tipping point at which certain associations cannot be ignored. I'd generally say if the first result of a Google search is the KKK's highest rank, then steps should be made to distance yourself.

Okay, in that case I'd suggest you change your forum name. You know, because as we all know Rahl is an alternative spelling for Rall and folk could think you Idolize a famous German fighter pilot, https://en.wikipedia...3%BCnther_Rall.

For that matter, you're currently showing the Jade Falcon Eagle for your profile, and as we all know the clans practice Eugenics. All in all very disturbing.

Or, you know, accept that sometimes coincidences are just that.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 16 May 2021 - 12:01 PM.

[JaxomRahl]

Leone, on 16 May 2021 - 12:01 PM, said:

Okay, in that case I'd suggest you change your forum name. You know, because as we all know Rahl is an alternative spelling for Rall and folk could think you Idolize a famous German fighter pilot, https://en.wikipedia...3%BCnther_Rall.

For that matter, you're currently showing the Jade Falcon Eagle for your profile, and as we all know the clans practice Eugenics. All in all very disturbing.

Or, you know, accept that sometimes coincidences are just that.

~Leone.

I feel like you didn't read my post at all...

[Novakaine]

JaxomRahl, on 16 May 2021 - 11:39 AM, said:

Judging by the sheer quantity of false equivocation and whataboutism present in this thread, I suspect any attempt at discussion is going to fall on deaf, and likely disrespectful, ears here. That said:

Things that happened, or were named, in the past are not immune to change. Something that was not considered tone deaf in the 80s and 90s, but was revealed to be insensitive or underwent a cultural shift should be reevaluated as time progresses.

Additionally, while it is great that some of you can quote the lore, dig up the original context of the mechs inception, or spuriously point to the fact that dragons are from fantasy, how things look to an outsider is important. To someone who is not a devotee to BattleTech, learning that a game released a new mech named Grand Dragon signals a high level of insensitivity or complacency to the horrors of the Ku Klux Klan and the atrocities committed by Grand Dragons (see anyone of these men's profiles).

Lastly, holding onto white supremacy terminology degrades the community and could attract white supremacy sympathizers to the community. I was appalled when reading the thread for the Stryker pack that someone in the community could find humor in a streamer making light of the connotation of the name and appreciated them indicating it should be renamed:

Asking for PGI to show a modicum of sensitivity to the level of tone deafness required to carry along the name Grand Dragon from lore is not too much to ask. I would absolutely report any DRG-5K pilot that had painted their mech white because the connotation is so clear. This is not an acceptable trait for a game to have.

I would absolutely support renaming the mech.

Seriously just stop as a Black man I am not offended by the name or perceived connotation.
It's a freaking video game if people are seriously offended by it perhaps Candy Crush is the game for them.
Leave the rest of use mature adults alone.
I'm logging in to play with my Grand Dragon for the rest of the week sheesh.

[Escef]

Novakaine, on 16 May 2021 - 12:04 PM, said:

Seriously just stop as a Black man I am not offended by the name or perceived connotation.
It's a freaking video game if people are seriously offended by it perhaps Candy Crush is the game for them.
Leave the rest of use mature adults alone.
I'm logging in to play with my Grand Dragon for the rest of the week sheesh.

I dunno, from what I've seen of HHoD's performance in the game, maybe they should be the ones leaving MWO for Candy Crush.