212 replies to this topic

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 12:56 AM, said:

you still havent explained why you keep arguing against separating the queues again if youre so opposed to it.

One simple word - Population.

The population we have now is not what it was in 2014, don't compare the two.

While population is up and not due to COVID - it's indisputably due Cauldron / PGI investment EXAMPLE: HERE - it is nothing close to what it needs to be to have GroupQ and SoloQ - yet.

Once it is, split it! I'm all for it. Always have been because I dislike MergedQ.

HOWEVER

If you split it out now GroupQ becomes the sharktank it was before. People will stop playing it. Wait times spiral and we are back to the same situation we were in 2017 where GroupQ times were through the roof, people could not play with friends, streamer/casual groups lost every match they played etc etc etc.

Fact is this - like it or not the MergeQ is good for the games population as it currently stands. Population is returning, people are able to play with friends etc etc. The population has risen month on month for almost 12 consecutive iterations, don't go screwing with it just yet.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 12:06 AM, said:

*few hours of sperging nonsence*

[RockmachinE]

I don't think 8v8 is as great as people remember it to be. It would be a step backwards in my opinion.

I've been been playing since pretty much the start of MWO, I like 12v12 better.

[Khobai]

denAirwalkerrr, on 08 June 2021 - 01:21 AM, said:

i didnt lose though.

because we still need separate queues.

if matchmaker cant balance groups then groups dont belong in solo queue. its no different from 2014.

the fact ash has to get his friends to gang up on me is kindve pathetic. but theyve always resorted to bullying anyone who opposes them. there are countless examples of that on the forums.

Quote

Okay, just because you don't seem to understand what you're talking about, let me explain something new. Maybe this'll take. Dropping with better players lowers your kill/death rate. Sure, win rate may climb, you know only if'n they're the best cuz otherwise the matchmaker'll set your tier for average and match accordingly. But like I said, kill/death ratio. See, there's only so many mechs to go around. Twelve in fact. Every kill that great player secures? One less for you.

wow because KDR is all that matters? what are we back in 2013 where anyone with negative KDR gets called out and publically shamed? KDR doesnt mean ****. The fact you even care about stats at all is sad. I play the game for fun. When it gets boring I move onto other games. Which happens a lot with this game lol. Between that I have a job and a family. Unlike these clowns, MWO isnt my job, and Im not trying to be world champion. Im sure ill be quitting MWO again soon enough because the games in a pretty poor state of balance right now with groups in solo queue, a non-functional matchmaker, lopsided tonnage, and almost every single match being a roll for one team or another.

Antares102, on 08 June 2021 - 12:59 AM, said:

So just like Vxheous said earlier soup queue was most likely the best thing that PGI could do combined with now listening to the community.

Except they all admitted it wasnt balanced to have groups in solo queue. the matchmaker cant balance the teams. I dont understand how anyone thinks thats even remotely okay. Balanced teams is the most important aspect of making a game enjoyable for players.

Hate to say it but as soon as the influx of covid players dies down this game will rapidly resume its downward death spiral. Its not gonna work without balanced teams. people will get upset and leave like they have before.

Edited by Khobai, 08 June 2021 - 03:12 AM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 02:49 AM, said:

i didnt lose though.

because we still need separate queues.

if matchmaker cant balance groups then groups dont belong in solo queue. its no different from 2014.

and the fact ash has to get his friends to gang up on me is kindve pathetic. they have always resorted to bullying anyone who opposes them. there are countless examples of that on the forums and PGI unfortunately condones that behavior.



wow because KDR is all that matters? what are we back in 2013 where anyone with negative KDR gets called out and publically shamed? KDR doesnt mean ****. The fact you even care about stats at all is sad. I play the game for fun. When it gets boring I move onto other games. Which happens a lot with this game lol. Between that I have a job and a family. Unlike these clowns, MWO isnt my job, and Im not trying to be world champion. Im sure ill be quitting MWO again soon enough because the games in a pretty poor state of balance right now with groups in solo queue, a non-functional matchmaker, lopsided tonnage, and almost every single match being a roll for one team or another.

I mean, it's probably one of the only things you can measure in the game. Do you win more than you lose? Do you kill more than you die? Do you contribute to the matches you're in (match score). Do you, or have you won organized tourneys? Those are measurable metrics, not that anyone should be shamed for it.

We all have families too, and jobs, and a life beyond gaming. I probably spend about 90% of my gaming time playing Apex Legends nowadays, and maybe 5% in MWO.

Edited by Vxheous, 08 June 2021 - 03:03 AM.

[Leone]

Okay. One, whilst yes, I enjoy fighting Justcallme A S H, he did not need call me to tell folk you are wrong. If you hadn't noticed, and honestly, I doubt you did, I've been pointing out your wrong for thread after thread after thread.

I mean, I don't wanna start calling names or anything, but if you're willing to dish it out.., I should point out that your are so wrong, four different folk felt the need to point it out. When you resort to name calling because your losing your arguments so hard even you can notice.

Well... like I said, I don't wanna start with the name calling.

~Leone.

[Khobai]

Leone, on 08 June 2021 - 03:11 AM, said:

Okay. One, whilst yes, I enjoy fighting Justcallme A S H, he did not need call me to tell folk you are wrong. If you hadn't noticed, and honestly, I doubt you did, I've been pointing out your wrong for thread after thread after thread.

I mean, I don't wanna start calling names or anything, but if you're willing to dish it out.., I should point out that your are so wrong, four different folk felt the need to point it out. When you resort to name calling because your losing your arguments so hard even you can notice.

Well... like I said, I don't wanna start with the name calling.

~Leone.

You have been wrong in thread after thread too.

Like in that thread where you tried to claim medium mechs go the same speed as heavy mechs. And I had to correct you that most mediums need to go faster than heavies in order to outrun heavies. Medium mechs absolutely pay more tonnage proportionally for their engines than any other weight class because they have to take proportionally bigger engines than any other weight class to reach their ideal max speed (average stock speed for most heavies is 64ish and average stock speed for most mediums is 80ish).

And I dont resort to name calling when I lose arguments because I dont lose arguments. Getting a bunch of people together to bully someone and repeat the same exact same viewpoint does not constitute the loss of an argument.

In actuality I have won the argument for why we need separate queues. I got them all to admit that groups in solo queue isnt balanced. Half of them admitted they didnt want mixed queue either. That is a WIN.

The real question is if everyone knows its so unbalanced, why is it still a thing? And how does anyone in their right mind think unbalanced matches is whats best for the game? the hell? balanced matches are generally the most important thing games strive for to keep players happy in the long term. Thats why this game is ultimately doomed to fail because PGI never learns from past mistakes. in this case 2014 repeated.

Edited by Khobai, 08 June 2021 - 03:28 AM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 03:14 AM, said:

You have been wrong in thread after thread too.

Like in that thread where you tried to claim medium mechs go the same speed as heavy mechs. And I had to correct you that most mediums need to go faster than heavies in order to outrun heavies.

Medium mechs absolutely pay more tonnage proportionally for their engines than any other weight class because they have to take proportionally bigger engines than any other weight class to reach their ideal max speed.

And I dont resort to name calling when I lose arguments because I dont lose arguments. Getting a bunch of people together to bully someone does not constitute losing an argument.

In actually I have won the argument for why we need separate queues. I got them all to admit that groups in solo queue isnt balanced. That is a win.

The real question is if everyone knows its so unbalanced, why is it still a thing? And how does anyone in their right mind think unbalanced matches is whats best for the game? the hell? balanced matches are generally the most important thing games strive for to keep players happy in the long term.

No, you got us to admit some groups are not balanced in the queue, but those same groups won't ever be balanced in the queue, because we are outliers. Most other groups are balanced because if you look at those players stats pre merge and post merge, it hasn't changed. That means for the most part, those players aren't affecting the game any more or less than they were previously, except now they're able to play with their friends.

[Leone]

But one, I never said mediums go the same speed as heavies. I said they don't need to put proportionally more engine into their mechs. Although, I don't believe they need to go faster'n heavies. You are, in fact, wrong. There is no 'ideal' max speed. There are 'preferred' max speeds, sure.

Umm, no. No. I've never said groups in solo queue wasn't balanced. I've only agreed that they have an advantage in complimentary mech configurations. You did not win any arguements. I mean, I guess you could call it a win. Just like I call dieing against four mechs with a kmdd a win whilst my team dies horribly. But let's face it. It's not.

You have won no arguements. You have almost 24 thousand posts, and none of them have won.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 08 June 2021 - 04:02 AM.

[MrTBSC]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 02:49 AM, said:

because we still need separate queues.

no we don´t

if you go and seperate queues with the current playerbase you may aswell remove groupqueue entirely .. people who groupdrop without soloplayers filling the gaps when there aren´t other groups will find no games or have VERY long waittimes, that was the entire point of mixed queue, and honestly i never realy experienced the drastic groupadvantage you are claiming even against a group of 4 players ... heck i dropped in a group a couple of times and we didn´t gain a huge advantage as you say .. mostly because i and my group droped with what ever noncoordinated nonsense we had in mind ...

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 03:14 AM, said:

The real question is if everyone knows its so unbalanced, why is it still a thing? And how does anyone in their right mind think unbalanced matches is whats best for the game? the hell? balanced matches are generally the most important thing games strive for to keep players happy in the long term.

You just don't seem to read anything anyone posts do you? I've been over this... Vx has... Many of us have.

You cannot ever balance every match in MWO with the population it has.

Elite Div A level guys in-games like this - will always be impossible to balance. You are talking and bringing up the exception/edge case scenarios here as well, just remember that.


The majority of games I have observed in the lower tiers are completed unaffected by groups. As that is where the majority of the players sit in the game.


A big issue with the MM is, again as I've stated many times, the secondary balancing. It finds the first 12 and slaps them with the next 12. It just doesn't care if it could form a more-even match, which in many cases it could do easily having reviewed many screenshot.

No one is saying unbalanced matches are good for MWO. Quote the person that has - what we are saying is that the edge case scenarios are impossible to balance for - and that is true.

[Khobai]

Vxheous, on 08 June 2021 - 03:26 AM, said:

No, you got us to admit some groups are not balanced in the queue, but those same groups won't ever be balanced in the queue, because we are outliers. Most other groups are balanced because if you look at those players stats pre merge and post merge, it hasn't changed. That means for the most part, those players aren't affecting the game any more or less than they were previously, except now they're able to play with their friends.

I dont believe that. any group can be reasonably balanced with a working matchmaker. other games matchmakers can get it within +/-5% balance with bigger teams and larger skill disparities than MWO has.

if it cant put worse players on your team or better players on the other team to balance you out it can strip tonnage away from your team or add tonnage to the opposing team.

im willing to bet there will eventually be a point where you will struggle to win. if it puts your whole team in commandos with all tier 5 cadets lol. and puts all tier 1 players with heavies on the other team. would you still win every game? at what point would you only win 50% of your games? im sure that point exists.

They should also ditch the goofy tier system for an actual ELO system based solely on wins/losses instead of this matchscore experience bar nonsense. The tier system not accurately reflecting player skill is a huge part of the problem because you can have so much variance within tier 1.

even if there were other players good enough to oppose you the matchmaker could never find them in its current state because theyd be tier 1 needles buried in a haystack full of tier 1s.

Edited by Khobai, 08 June 2021 - 03:54 AM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 03:39 AM, said:

I dont believe that. any group can be reasonably balanced with a working matchmaker. other games matchmakers can get it within +/-5% balance.

if it cant put worse players on your team or better players on the other team to balance you out it can strip tonnage away from your team or add tonnage to the opposing team.

im willing to bet there will eventually be a point where you will struggle to win. if it puts your whole team in commandos with all tier 5 cadets lol. and puts all tier 1 players with heavies on the other team. would you still win every game? at what point would you only win 50% of your games? im sure that point exists.

They should also ditch the goofy tier system for an actual ELO system based solely on wins/losses instead of this matchscore nonsense. The tier system not accurately reflecting player skill is a huge part of the problem because you can have so much variance within tier 1.

I'm willing to bet a team of 12 commandos would actually roflstomp the other team, especially in quick play. Commandos are pretty OP, and more people in quickplay struggle to kill them.

Also, I mentioned that I primarily play Apex Legends nowadays, and their matchmaker is no better (except I'm not a top player there). I am a platinum ranked player, as is my wife and another EmP guy. Our normal queue games consists of multiple Diamond, Master and Apex Pred groups, so honestly, most games don't actually have a "good" matchmaker (Apex legends has 100 million players too...)

Edited by Vxheous, 08 June 2021 - 03:53 AM.

[McGoat]

justcallme A S H, on 08 June 2021 - 03:37 AM, said:

A big issue with the MM is, again as I've stated many times, the secondary balancing. It finds the first 12 and slaps them with the next 12. It just doesn't care if it could form a more-even match, which in many cases it could do easily having reviewed many screenshot.

This is the true culprit.
We need secondary balancing once the match is formed from the pool of 24 players.
Overall match quality would (should) improve drastically, but that will take effort far and beyond that of a map designer and the efforts of the Cauldron.

[Bud Crue]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 03:39 AM, said:

I dont believe that. any group can be reasonably balanced with a working matchmaker. other games matchmakers can get it within +/-5% balance with bigger teams and larger skill disparities than MWO has.

if it cant put worse players on your team or better players on the other team to balance you out it can strip tonnage away from your team or add tonnage to the opposing team.

im willing to bet there will eventually be a point where you will struggle to win. if it puts your whole team in commandos with all tier 5 cadets lol. and puts all tier 1 players with heavies on the other team. would you still win every game? at what point would you only win 50% of your games? im sure that point exists.

They should also ditch the goofy tier system for an actual ELO system based solely on wins/losses instead of this matchscore experience bar nonsense. The tier system not accurately reflecting player skill is a huge part of the problem because you can have so much variance within tier 1.

even if there were other players good enough to oppose you the matchmaker could never find them in its current state because theyd be tier 1 needles buried in a haystack full of tier 1s.

A MM such as you are implying here could never exist and if it could, and were instituted it would kill the game quicker than any splitting of the queues would.

First, from the historical record it should be clear that PGI could never provide an MM that recognized that some mechs are less desirable than others for purposes of balance. Second, If the MM performed in such a way that it took the player’s ability to play their mech of choice away, and replaced it with some sort of MM driven mech selector, players would get fed up with that real quick and leave in droves.

[Khobai]

Bud Crue, on 08 June 2021 - 04:57 AM, said:

First, from the historical record it should be clear that PGI could never provide an MM that recognized that some mechs are less desirable than others for purposes of balance.

To be fair they already did that with solaris divisions. I think they mostly got the mechs in the right divisions. They just never separated out the divisions by weight class. There shouldve been 7 divisions per weight class.

Quote

Second, If the MM performed in such a way that it took the player’s ability to play their mech of choice away, and replaced it with some sort of MM driven mech selector, players would get fed up with that real quick and leave in droves.

players are going to leave in droves regardless. might as well have more balanced matches.

and im not saying MM would select mechs for players. It would try to find players piloting those mechs already. nobody should be forced to play something they dont want. especially solos against groups.

and for groups it could impose a lower max weight limit the higher the groups average tier is. youd have to find out how low it could go before it feels too oppressive. I imagine 240 tons would be the lowest.

a tier 1 average group should probably get less max tonnage than a tier 3 average group for example.

Edited by Khobai, 08 June 2021 - 05:19 AM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 05:04 AM, said:

To be fair they already did that with solaris divisions



players are going to leave in droves regardless. might as well have balanced matches.

Except they havent, because population has been steadily rising

[Bud Crue]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 05:04 AM, said:

To be fair they already did that with solaris divisions

Have you played Solaris? While certainly any mech can be viable in each division, there are (or were, I confess that I haven’t played the mod in the better part of a year) clear meta builds in each.

As to the idea that your theorized MM would find players piloting the less desirable mechs in play at the time, take a look at the percentage meter at any given time. Lights and mediums are still not equally represented on a given night of play. As such, I am still convinced that such an MM would not be possible or advisable. Also, players are most certainly NOT leaving in droves (anymore).

[Khobai]

Vxheous, on 08 June 2021 - 05:07 AM, said:

Except they havent, because population has been steadily rising

yeah I explained that. its because of covid. once that ends its death spiral time.

Bud Crue, on 08 June 2021 - 05:17 AM, said:

Have you played Solaris?

haha for one season I think

again i think separating the mechs by divisions worked fine

but they needed to separate them by weight class too

so you didnt end up with weird kingcrab vs shadowcat matches

I believe they could do something similar for the matchmaker to help balance mech quality in matches. Each mech would get a rating 1-7 for example. And the matchmaker would try to give each team the same number of rating points for each weight class using some kindve formula (not sure what the formula would be exactly). thats a simplistic way of doing it but I think its better than nothing

Other games like war thunder have battle value systems so there must be some merit to it.

And irregardless of the group vs solo situation the mech tonnage/quality needs to be balanced better.

Edited by Khobai, 08 June 2021 - 05:40 AM.

[Volraththefallen]

Hey guys,

When I created this post it had nothing to do with whether we should keep soup que as it is now or seperate the ques like we did in the past. Population is still too low, and allowing people to play with their friends needs to ALWAYS be an option, as has been discussed here, to get more people to play the game, and keep player retention. Removing that would be a disaster.

Khobai, Ash, Leone, LordNothing, and everyone else in this thread ( sorry cant remember or type EVERYONES name! dont hate me! hee hee! ) you have all made excellent points and have contributed to an excellent discussion regarding MWO.

I honestly believe everyone in this thread has a good point, and all I wanted was an 8vs8 option added to the game.

If its 8vs8 solo Q great lets do it.

If its 8vs8 and it has the option to que up with your friends, and have that as a main feature for the game, im all for it. Not a real group que but lets add the option to que with just 2 or 4 people with the added option of solo's opting in.That way the biggest group is only 4 ( which is what we have already in solo Q ) and hopefully people will enjoy it as it is alot more fun and casual then the usual 12vs12 imo.

I mostly want 8vs8 back just for the fun of it, and I miss the good old days where people would take medium brawling mechs more often and just have at it. There is something fun and nostalgic about not taking this game seriously. Its only for fun.

That being said, you guys have shed light on the fact that keeping players happy and dropping with your friends is the absolute most important feature to keep in this game, so I highly doubt a 12vs12 full on group que will ever work again. You all have pointed out the reasons, and it makes sense.

Lets be positive and just enjoy the game for what it is, and whilst I would like a pure solo Q, I dont think its a possibility due to player retention, and playing with your friends being so important, no, THE MOST IMPORTANT feature we need to keep in this game. Lets face it, were enjoying higher population now, but still no where near other AAA games, and if we get rid of people being able to casually play and drop with friends, honestly the game will just end up worse than it is.

Edited by Lonewolf71, 08 June 2021 - 08:57 AM.