212 replies to this topic

[Volraththefallen]

The game is getting better. But 12v12 still kinda sucks. Its been that way since it was implemented years ago.

Please give us 8v8. Give us the feeling that a good player can actually make a difference in this game, instead of trying to fight a 2-7 game vs a bunch of mechs when most of your team is dead.

Give us what the game felt like in 2012-2013. I want that simple game in solo Q back. Give us what we want PGI, give us our 8v8 game back, please.

It should AT LEAST be an option, and the fact that it is removed entirely is just stupid, and has been stupid for years. I guarantee you more players will come back and play the classic mechs like the Centurion Yen Lo Wang and other mechs that we had fun with back in the day in 8v8, back when you could round a corner and not get shot to pieces by a 12 man team.

BRING BACK 8V8!

- supporter of MWO Online have a nice day

[Leone]

We have 8v8 I thought? Or did they change comp format? Also, point of fact, getting shot by eight folk aint that different from getting shot by twelve. Maybe don't face check for the opfor?

~Leone.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

I don't feel particularly stronger either way on 12v12 vs 8v8 but I feel like you've done a poor job of arguing it.

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Give us the feeling that a good player can actually make a difference in this game, instead of trying to fight a 2-7 game vs a bunch of mechs when most of your team is dead.

Yes, with smaller teams individual perform is more impactful but it also means matches will snowball more and harder since each person is more important. Losing a man early on to something dumb will hurt far more in a 8v8 than a 12v12.

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It should AT LEAST be an option

Adding more matchmaking buckets isn't a good idea.

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I guarantee you more players will come back and play the classic mechs like the Centurion Yen Lo Wang and other mechs that we had fun with back in the day in 8v8

I'm not sure any mech is invalidated by whether another lance is playing or not beyond niche stuff, seems like people haven't been playing the Centurion because the mobility wasn't great and has been buffed.

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back when you could round a corner and not get shot to pieces by a 12 man team.

Ahh, okay. I think I know why you want 8v8 :^)

Edited by Monke-, 31 May 2021 - 11:48 PM.

[KodiakGW]

Sorry OP, neither PGI, the Cauldron, and either of their supporters want 8v8. So either play it they way they want it, find 7 people to get into comp play with you, or don’t play.

[Gagis]

KodiakGW, on 01 June 2021 - 12:07 AM, said:

Sorry OP, neither PGI, the Cauldron, and either of their supporters want 8v8.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. 8v8 is a popular concept among multiple groups since it is a lot less chaotic and unpredictable than 12v12.

My solution would be to keep QP 12v12 and enable 8v8 group queue that solos can opt into by creating a "one man group" and launching with that.

Edited by Gagis, 01 June 2021 - 01:04 AM.

[Mochyn Pupur]

Gagis, on 01 June 2021 - 01:04 AM, said:

I wouldn't be so sure about that. 8v8 is a popular concept among multiple groups since it is a lot less chaotic and unpredictable than 12v12.

My solution would be to keep QP 12v12 and enable 8v8 group queue that solos can opt into by creating a "one man group" and launching with that.

Multiple groups of one person doesn't really mean much

You want a better experience - then PGI needs to address CW/FP to make it viable and entertaining again. In general, the player base there is already skilled up with decent loadouts and dropping with comms chat for coordinated matches.

With the player base increasing again (for whatever reason, not just Cauldron etc., but lockdowns and home schooling), now would be that time to get the queues split again between QP and FP and offer a better flavour of what the game used to be!

8 v 8 would would simply be turning down a blind alley and putting your foot down - outcome is predictable and painful.

[justcallme A S H]

KodiakGW, on 01 June 2021 - 12:07 AM, said:

Sorry OP, neither PGI, the Cauldron, and either of their supporters want 8v8. So either play it they way they want it, find 7 people to get into comp play with you, or don’t play.

Where did you make that up from?

8v8 GroupQ. A strong majority of Cauldron members all for it if my memory is correct there. In fact many of the Cauldron members have been advocating since it was first tried, myself included. A Solo-Opt in is something that's been hotly discussed as well.

SoloQ v8v8 - would not be without much larger issues with regards to everything from weapons, maps, cap points to cbill/experience payouts for matches (ie, in-game economy), match maker adjustments etc etc etc. That would be not as easy of an undertaking.

[LordNothing]

i think 12v12 was mostly used because that was the best bang for buck they could get out of their servers. every game instance needed a dedicated server (though with more modern hardware you could virtualize multiple instances on a high core count cpu) and the more players each could take up would mean less wait times or lower server bills. it really has nothing to do with player preference as much as players insist it does. they only went for things like scouting and solaris as the population dropped.

i think 8v8 would be a good changeup. but i think it makes more sense in fp than it does in qp. fp has always had its queue stretched thin and i think going 8v8 would improve that a lot. of course the denizens of fp would rather see it burn than changed, and i dont completely disagree with them either (every change has lead to a massive dieoff of population). having fp be a stagnant dead zone only a select few can enjoy, no wonder it doesn't get any dev time.

[martian]

Lonewolf71, on 31 May 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

The game is getting better. But 12v12 still kinda sucks. Its been that way since it was implemented years ago.

Actually, I like 12v12.

Lonewolf71, on 31 May 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

Please give us 8v8. Give us the feeling that a good player can actually make a difference in this game, instead of trying to fight a 2-7 game vs a bunch of mechs when most of your team is dead.

You can fight 2-7 in 8v8 game too.

Lonewolf71, on 31 May 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

Give us what we want PGI, give us our 8v8 game back, please.

Speak for yourself, please. No "what we want", but "what I want". You do not talk for me.

Lonewolf71, on 31 May 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

It should AT LEAST be an option, and the fact that it is removed entirely is just stupid, and has been stupid for years. I guarantee you more players will come back and play the classic mechs like the Centurion Yen Lo Wang ...

The viability of the Centurion has not much to do with the 12v12 or 8v8. If some design is sluggish in 12v12, it will be equally sluggish in 8v8. The change of the game format is not going to change its turn rate or torso twist speed.

Actually, in 8v8 you would be forced to take only the best 'Mechs, if possible, since any mistake in tactics, loadout design or 'Mech choice would be more punishing.

Lonewolf71, on 31 May 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

... we had fun with back in the day in 8v8, back when you could round a corner and not get shot to pieces by a 12 man team.

Do you think that going around the corner and being shot in pieces by a 8-man team would be a greater fun?

PeppaPig, on 01 June 2021 - 01:50 AM, said:

You want a better experience - then PGI needs to address CW/FP to make it viable and entertaining again.

Sorry, but I think it is too late for that.

PeppaPig, on 01 June 2021 - 01:50 AM, said:

In general, the player base there is already skilled up with decent loadouts and dropping with comms chat for coordinated matches.

Sometimes scan enemy 'Mechs in the game to see their "decent loadouts" or observe them in the first person piloting a 'Mech armed with hodge-podge of possible weapons.

As for "dropping with comms", in my experience both the voice chat and the text chat are usually silent.

PeppaPig, on 01 June 2021 - 01:50 AM, said:

With the player base increasing again (for whatever reason, not just Cauldron etc., but lockdowns and home schooling), now would be that time to get the queues split again between QP and FP and offer a better flavour of what the game used to be!

QP and FP are split, are not they?

[KodiakGW]

justcallme A S H, on 01 June 2021 - 02:14 AM, said:

Where did you make that up from?

https://mwomercs.com...since-feb-2020/

There were numerous suggestions about 8v8 queues that were soundly rejected. Plus suggestions were made in other threads that were closed down, and refenced back to that thread.

justcallme A S H, on 01 June 2021 - 02:14 AM, said:

8v8 GroupQ. A strong majority of Cauldron members all for it if my memory is correct there. In fact many of the Cauldron members have been advocating since it was first tried, myself included. A Solo-Opt in is something that's been hotly discussed as well.

SoloQ v8v8 - would not be without much larger issues with regards to everything from weapons, maps, cap points to cbill/experience payouts for matches (ie, in-game economy), match maker adjustments etc etc etc. That would be not as easy of an undertaking.

You say you support 8v8 group queue, with solo opt in. But, if solos do not want to opt in, then what queue do they go into? A solo queue (or maybe a solo queue that allows a two man group to join) would be needed. That is, unless the idea is that solos would have to go to FP or Solaris to play. Splitting the queues has been soundly rejected, by many reasons which include that a solo queue would kill the group queue because weaker groups would leave and sync drop in solo when stronger groups join.

Also, all the larger issues you stated for solo 8v8, that would require no easy undertaking to address, would also exist in the 8v8 group queue. Do they somehow disappear just because it is group queue? It is still 8 players versus 8 players. Fact is, group queue would exacerbate most of those issues. Two examples. It would be harder for matchmaker to make even Tier teams, and harder for it to maintain 2/2/2/2 balance. Easier to do in solo. Also, an organized 8 man group could easily core-kill steamroll smaller groups, leading to significantly lower XP and CBill payouts than 16 fairly unorganized solos fighting.

8v8 group queue was tried for a very short period of time. Did all of the issues you mentioned exist? They should have. You just reiterated what you have been saying that you and fellow Cauldron members were advocating it. So those issue must have not been bad.

So, my original assessment to OP stands. 12v12 single queue is looking to be here until player number get above some unannounced number so queues can be separated without harming the existing player numbers. There is no viable 8v8 solution that is not being rejected. Add in that PGI would not be in favor of 8v8 for the financial reason of needing to add server queues. So a player will need to either play it as is, or stop while the Cauldron continues to remove all the other bad decisions that were made (by doing proper mech rescales, further mobility passes, skill tree fixes/replacement, etc.) and maps get fixed. Eventually we might get to that player number where 8v8 will genuinely be considered.

[Nightbird]

I think they meant 12vs12 solos only queue, plus a 8vs8 group queue that solos can opt into if they want to.

I'm all for that, get groups out away from the solos.

[martian]

Nightbird, on 01 June 2021 - 10:15 AM, said:

I think they meant 12vs12 solos only queue, plus a 8vs8 group queue that solos can opt into if they want to.

I'm all for that, get groups out away from the solos.

This is something that I would support.

[Khobai]

8v8 is definitely better

12v12 makes the game stale because the sheer amount of firepower that can be thrown out paralyzes both teams. TTK is way lower in 12v12 because the chances of getting focus fired are much higher.

12v12 also leads to worse snowballing because its more brutal when a person (or group of people) makes a bad mistake. they get totally obliterated from the increased focus fire.

lights and mediums are much better balanced in 8v8 too.

The game was 8v8 before it was ever 12v12 so I really dont think going back to 8v8 is an issue. Its 12v12 that screwed things up.

Edited by Khobai, 01 June 2021 - 11:03 AM.

[Mochyn Pupur]

martian, on 01 June 2021 - 02:31 AM, said:

Actually, I like 12v12.


You can fight 2-7 in 8v8 game too.


Speak for yourself, please. No "what we want", but "what I want". You do not talk for me.


The viability of the Centurion has not much to do with the 12v12 or 8v8. If some design is sluggish in 12v12, it will be equally sluggish in 8v8. The change of the game format is not going to change its turn rate or torso twist speed.

Actually, in 8v8 you would be forced to take only the best 'Mechs, if possible, since any mistake in tactics, loadout design or 'Mech choice would be more punishing.


Do you think that going around the corner and being shot in pieces by a 8-man team would be a greater fun?


Sorry, but I think it is too late for that.


Sometimes scan enemy 'Mechs in the game to see their "decent loadouts" or observe them in the first person piloting a 'Mech armed with hodge-podge of possible weapons.

As for "dropping with comms", in my experience both the voice chat and the text chat are usually silent.


QP and FP are split, are not they?

Reading your comments is like listening to my wife, lots of words, no coherence and ends up with you arguing with yourself.

Having tried to make sense of your "answers?" it appears you have or have had poor experience in well coordinated FP drops? Strong FP drops would separate the queues, hopefully get rid of 4 mans or as I have been seeing over the last couple of weeks, sync dropping with 6 or 7 people from the same unit landing in a QP match.

A good FP experience would actively encourage the proper split and not end up with the pitiful effort we were left with because of the continued ignorance or refusal to acknowledge, by PGI of what was needed in the game to retain and increase its player base.

[Capt Deadpool]

I am fairly ambivalent as to 8v8 vs. 12v12, however I am a very strong advocate of dynamic team sizes that adjusts based on online population. Our MM is already very inadequate, but I suspect reducing team sizes when the population pool is low would help our struggling MM to create more equitable teams. No idea how difficult such a change would be to make.

[PurplePuke]

Am I the only one reading these endless 8v8 threads who notices the critical logic flaws in the arguments? I can't be, can I?

[Khobai]

Lockheed_, on 01 June 2021 - 11:23 AM, said:

The fewer people in a group the more impact the loss of one group member has. Also with more people on the battle field there's more distraction, more enemies to track and know their position, that rather leads to less focused fire.

The more people on a team the easier it is to punish someone for making a mistake. more focus fire.

And no theres usually not that much more distraction since people tend to poke one at a time not all at once. Organized teams will poke all at once to provide multiple targets and share armor. But thats not what happens in solo queue. In solo queue people peek alone and they get punished heavily for it, often dying outright.

There is definitely more focus fire in 12v12 than 8v8 because theres more mechs that can fire on one target. Which also means the target is more likely to be killed. Which leads to more snowballing. Snowballing pretty much always happens because a couple solo yolos get themselves focused down early and die and it puts their team at an irrecoverable disadvantage. It can happen in 8v8 too but its far more forgiving of mistakes since theres less focus fire. especially for light mechs and medium mechs. they have a chance of surviving mistakes in 8v8 where they would die for sure in 12v12.

also just by virtue of 12v12 having more players than 8v8 it statistically creates a higher chance of games where snowballing occurs. because theres way more score combinations with huge disparities. In 12v12 you can have games where your team is down by 8-10 mechs and cant possibly win. But in 8v8 the disparity is never that bad, theres more of a chance of being able to make a comeback. Usually the worst it is in 8v8 is like 1v4 or 1v5 at the end which is still sometimes winnable. You have a chance in 8v8 whereas in 12v12 youd never be able to beat like 7-8 mechs yourself. The chance for comebacks is significantly lower in 12v12 which makes complete rolls happen more.

Edited by Khobai, 01 June 2021 - 12:21 PM.

[martian]

PeppaPig, on 01 June 2021 - 11:30 AM, said:

Reading your comments is like listening to my wife, lots of words, no coherence and ends up with you arguing with yourself.

Having tried to make sense of your "answers?" it appears you have or have had poor experience in well coordinated FP drops? Strong FP drops would separate the queues, hopefully get rid of 4 mans or as I have been seeing over the last couple of weeks, sync dropping with 6 or 7 people from the same unit landing in a QP match.

A good FP experience would actively encourage the proper split and not end up with the pitiful effort we were left with because of the continued ignorance or refusal to acknowledge, by PGI of what was needed in the game to retain and increase its player base.

Maybe you have not noticed that the majority of the playerbase has refused to play FP over the years and either plays QP or has left MWO altogether.

On top of that, in one video Daeron Katz mentioned that he no longer bothers with reading the FP section of the forums (since PGI has no plans to waste money and effort on it). Thus your idea that "PGI needs to address CW/FP to make it viable and entertaining again" faces the basic problem that it seems that PGI has no big intent to do so.

[Khobai]

martian, on 01 June 2021 - 08:38 PM, said:

Maybe you have not noticed that the majority of the playerbase has refused to play FP over the years and either plays QP or has left MWO altogether.

On top of that, in one video Daeron Katz mentioned that he no longer bothers with reading the FP section of the forums (since PGI has no plans to waste money and effort on it). Thus your idea that "PGI needs to address CW/FP to make it viable and entertaining again" faces the basic problem that it seems that PGI has no big intent to do so.

amusingly the biggest problem with FP is the reason FP was created: groups. groups destroy everything in MWO. they destroyed group queue and FP. now theyre screwing up solo queue too.

every single gamemode thats allowed groups or groups vs solos has turned into a cesspool. thats not a coincidence. groups vs solos is inherently toxic in MWO because nobody likes getting rolled constantly.

best thing PGI could do to save FP is get rid of groups. that would encourage solo players to play FP who wont play now, and the whole reason they wont play FP is because they hate getting rolled on by groups.

its unfortunate but its true. the matchmaker fails to properly balance groups against solos. and if the matchmaker isnt able to balance groups vs solos then you cant expect solos to tolerate getting rolled. The matchmaker getting fixed at this point will never happen. So just get rid of groups. Thats how you can save FP because allowing groups to roll solos obviously isnt saving it.

Edited by Khobai, 01 June 2021 - 11:30 PM.

[Rycard]

Personally I prefer 24v24 rather than 8v8. The more the merrier imho. So what if you can get focused, its the same with 8v8 because it is more likely they will stay as a murderball which is the critical thing in any sized match. If you can convince the entire group, whether it be 12v12 or 8v8, to stay in murderball mode they will more than likely be the winner. Since its easier to wrangle 8 players than 12, focus fire opportunities are more likely. At least with a bigger group,24 or 36 (battalion sized) you increase the chances people will split off into sub groups or cliques.