124 replies to this topic

[Bobby Bang]

justcallme A S H, on 07 June 2021 - 03:25 PM, said:

lol I don't know what I'm talking about? I'm not the one who has consistently, over years, posted nothing but constant misinformation on the pages of this forum. I mean you think the SCR is a good LRMboat... It's one of the worst Mediums to use.


LRM / Assault DPS matters, it's critically important. You want to be sending the maximum amount of missiles (damage) while the target is under vision/lock. That is what wins games and overall damage is simply a byproduct of it.

This means max firepower tree. Enough DHS to balance the build out and also ability to alpha all the tubes at once should the lock window be short etc etc.

I mean my record/stats speak for themselves as to whether I know what I'm talking about or not. Hopefully people are smart enough to work out who is right.

You two need to cool down. disagreeing over a video game is fine, but It is against the code of conduct to call people liars repeatedly. But more importantly, you two need to turn it down a notch because reading this type back and forth filled with insults and penis-measuring stinks for the rest of us to have to wade through.

There could be some helpful, funny, solid advice in this and other threads, especially for us new guys, but sorting through these posts where several of you are trying to troll each other into a violation while skirting it yourselves means all that gets lost.

We get it, you two are big-shots, leaders of the game's community, very-important with online profiles, etc... so start acting like leaders and post respectfully and cleverly, share useful infor, disagree maturely, don't use your positions to sling ad hominins and tell everyone what big deals you are.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 07 June 2021 - 03:25 PM, said:

LRM / Assault DPS matters, it's critically important. You want to be sending the maximum amount of missiles (damage) while the target is under vision/lock. That is what wins games and overall damage is simply a byproduct of it.

no lol

you can have all the dps in the world and if your missiles cant connect with targets it doesnt matter.

you could be a lrm95 warhammer on solaris city and if you cant missile anyone you are effectively useless.

dps is not whats critically important. being able to connect with your attacks is whats critically important. thats why the stormcrow is a superior lrm mech because it can use its speed to position itself better on maps that arnt typically good for lrms and still has 6-7 lasers as a backup for when lrms arnt ideal.

again you are wrong wrong wrong.

even low dps builds like ppc or gauss can score top damage. its not because their dps is high. its because their shots consistently connect to targets. dps is not a critical factor at all. connecting with your shots is more important than high dps. And a stormcrow can connect with its lrms better than any slowass assault can because it goes 97kph and still carries a decent laser alpha on top of that.

again all that matters is the end result. the amount of damage you do on the score screen at the end. dps means next to nothing.

A LRM60 stormcrow is easily capable of doing more endgame damage than a LRM95 warhammer. Especially on maps that arnt conducive to LRM play where its lasers give it a huge advantage. Im not saying the stormcrow will always outperform a LRM80-95 mech but it will often enough that youre wrong in making blanket statements about higher dps and lrm assaults always being better.

Also by playing a stormcrow instead of an LRM assault youre not taking up one of your teams precious assault slots just to LRM. Its such an abysmal waste of an assault that doesnt at all play to the strengths of an assault. the biggest strength of assaults is their ballistic heavy loadouts that other weight classes dont have the tonnage to use. any assault thats not being used for ballistic loadouts is a waste as far as im concerned (with a few exceptions since there are some assaults that are decent at laser vomit/ppcs).

Edited by Khobai, 07 June 2021 - 06:17 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Sharing aggro is more important than sharing armor.

People are stopping because nobody wants to be the first to draw aggro against newly improved ranged weaponry and nobody is on comms to coordinate a method for navigating that particular roadblock. Chances are, half the players didn't bring weapons capable of dealing damage at even medium ranges anyway, further incentivizing the "hurry up and wait" strategy.

The QP game has taken a shift away from DPS and brawl back toward trading; there is now a more distinct trading phase in every match and people have forgotten how to play it in both the MechLab and on the field.

[justcallme A S H]

Bobby Bang, on 07 June 2021 - 04:51 PM, said:

reading this type back and forth filled with insults and penis-measuring stinks for the rest of us to have to wade through.

I mean if the misinformation spreaders stopped - we should not be here at all would we?

Alas they never let up, sadly. I really don't understand why people would want to constantly do this but that is the world I guess.


I'll admit I was suckered into an exchange by a user that's proven to lack game understanding at many levels... I usually just ignore it these days for the most part after I post clarification to hopefully nail the misinformation. On that I will do better.

[Khobai]

I have a lack of understanding of the game?

youre the one arguing in favor of LRM assaults... LOL

[Heavy Money]

Bobby Bang, on 07 June 2021 - 04:51 PM, said:

We get it, you two are big-shots, leaders of the game's community, very-important with online profiles, etc... so start acting like leaders and post respectfully and cleverly, share useful infor, disagree maturely, don't use your positions to sling ad hominins and tell everyone what big deals you are.

I agree with the general sentiment, but I'm afraid you've misunderstood. One of these people is a top comp player who spends lots of time helping the game and community, and has been in the top couple hundred players for 5+ years. The other didn't even play the last few years, and was mediocre then and now. In addition, they are so wrong about everything and use such bad faith arguments that it is easily speculated that they are an elaborate troll or performance artist who says literally the opposite of the truth on every issue, but then acts like they are correct, to see if you'll even call them out.

I understand its natural (especially as a new player) to assume that these are just two disagreeable hotheads having a pissing contest or something, but this is not the case here. This is a respected member of the community trying to protect new players from someone who is either incredibly malicious, incompetent, or both.

Edited by Heavy Money, 07 June 2021 - 07:11 PM.

[Khobai]

How is my argument in bad faith? I thought my argument for LRM stormcrows being awesome was pretty good actually.

Ash is the one making bad faith arguments telling people to play LRM assaults because theyre always better than everything else because they do the "mostest DPS". It doesnt make any sense to ignore all other considerations and say DPS is the most important thing when its clearly not.

Ash's perspective is more than likely skewed by the fact he plays in groups with some of the best players in the game. And theyre running interference for his LRM assault and spotting and narcing the enemy mechs. Yes I could see LRM assaults doing great in those fabricated circumstances where other people are ensuring a constant stream of your missiles hit the target.

As a solo player I dont get those benefits however. I dont have other players in my group watching my back in case lights attack me. I dont have people spotting or narcing for me. I have to protect myself from lights and get my own locks. The stormcrow is exceptional as an all-in-one-package LRM boat for solo players. And it can outperform LRM assaults a lot of the time despite what Ash claims.

And I would encourage anyone who wants to LRM without detracting from the number of assaults on their team to try out the stormcrow because it really is great. LRM60 with 7.5 tons of ammo that goes 97kph and has 7 lasers and doesnt cost your team an assault? whats not to like about that? Thats not a bad faith argument that argument speaks for itself.

Heavy Money, on 07 June 2021 - 07:10 PM, said:

I understand its natural (especially as a new player) to assume that these are just two disagreeable hotheads having a pissing contest or something, but this is not the case here. This is a respected member of the community trying to protect new players from someone who is either incredibly malicious, incompetent, or both.

lmao what? Ash as a benevolent protector? anyone who knows Ash at all would LOL at that.

Heavy Money, on 07 June 2021 - 07:10 PM, said:

The other didn't even play the last few years

Yeah and I stopped playing because of players like Ash. I couldnt play with my friends in group queue because every time I did some comp group would smash us. Group queue was immeasurably toxic and unfun. Faction play was just as bad. A lot of players and even entire units were driven away from the game for similar reasons. Because of how bad group queue and faction play were with balancing matches.

Solo queue was basically the only refuge to get away from groups back then, but now even thats gone. At least the group sizes are limited but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Edited by Khobai, 07 June 2021 - 08:03 PM.

[Bobby Bang]

Heavy Money, on 07 June 2021 - 07:10 PM, said:

I agree with the general sentiment, but I'm afraid you've misunderstood. One of these people is a top comp player who spends lots of time helping the game and community, and has been in the top couple hundred players for 5+ years. The other didn't even play the last few years, and was mediocre then and now. In addition, they are so wrong about everything and use such bad faith arguments that it is easily speculated that they are an elaborate troll or performance artist who says literally the opposite of the truth on every issue, but then acts like they are correct, to see if you'll even call them out.

I understand its natural (especially as a new player) to assume that these are just two disagreeable hotheads having a pissing contest or something, but this is not the case here. This is a respected member of the community trying to protect new players from someone who is either incredibly malicious, incompetent, or both.

Thank you for your post Heavy. I hear what you are saying, and I appreciate that you want to delineate between two posters but that is missing the point, it doesn't matter how great one might be, or how seldom someone might play, or any of that. We are all held to the same standard and this is OUR forum, not someone's private fightclub.

If posters do great things for the game, if a poster has been a positive influence it doesn't mean they get a free pass to be jerk, or to break the COC by bullying or insulting other people, that is not how the COC is written or works, it is the same for everyone. That means nobody can call other posters liars, or stupid, etc... Nobody is above it, otherwise the COC is worthless.

As I said if someone is a "big deal" than they should know how to act like a leader and keep this garbage out of the threads. That goes for both of these jokers, this isn't grade-school, with playground fights and popularity contest, act like bloody adults.

I'm out.

Edited by Bobby Bang, 08 June 2021 - 12:59 AM.

[PocketYoda]

martian, on 07 June 2021 - 08:42 AM, said:

Well, even players with much better Ping than yours behave timidly quite often.

If they aren't newbies i blame the power creep.. I'm not against the cauldrons buffs but the mechs armor just cannot keep up at this time especially on many mediums and heavies.

[Gagis]

Bobby Bang, on 08 June 2021 - 12:49 AM, said:

That means nobody can call other posters liars

Other things I may agree on, but calling people who spread misinformation liars is absolutely fair, even necessary. The forums being full of misinformation, lies and detrimental flawed "advice" since they were first opened has been a major hindrance to new players being able to get into the game.

There are only so many shouting matches all the actually reasonable players can get into. ASH is one of the very VERY few who has the patience to try to counter the massive harm forum warriors are doing to this game. Most give up, since the noise is just too much.

There's just no reason to pretend lies are truths.

Edited by Gagis, 08 June 2021 - 02:13 AM.

[Leone]

I would counter that there are reasons to do so. Not good reasons, but since when has that stopped folk?

~Leone.

[Armchair General]

Bobby Bang, on 08 June 2021 - 12:49 AM, said:

If posters do great things for the game, if a poster has been a positive influence it doesn't mean they get a free pass to be jerk, or to break the COC by bullying or insulting other people, that is not how the COC is written or works, it is the same for everyone. That means nobody can call other posters liars, or stupid, etc... Nobody is above it, otherwise the COC is worthless.

If you feel that somebody is insulting you or others please use the report function on each post and we the moderators will have a look at it.
However, be aware that moderation actions are not guaranteed since what can be perceived as insults is highly subjective and also depending on context.

Other than that please stay on topic of this thread everybody.
Thank you!

Edited by Armchair General, 08 June 2021 - 02:26 AM.

[Khobai]

so yeah Ash's LRM kingcrab is fail. moving on...

MechaGnome, on 08 June 2021 - 12:58 AM, said:

If they aren't newbies i blame the power creep.. I'm not against the cauldrons buffs but the mechs armor just cannot keep up at this time especially on many mediums and heavies.

Mech armor definitely cant keep up.

I was against some of the cauldron buffs. I certainly didnt agree with them buffing clan laser vomit back to where it was before it was nerfed. It was previously nerfed for a reason.

A medium mech like the hunchback IIC should not be able to driveby you at 82kph for 75 laser damage and repeat that every few seconds. With 22 DHS the hunchback IIC cools down incredibly fast after delivering that alphastrike. Especially with 2 coolants.

the combination of abundant high mount energy hardpoints, lasers with decent range and high damage to tonnage ratios, a fast CXL engine, and massive heatsinkage is still very much a problem IMO. Its a problem on mechs like the hellbringer too among others. I get that clan energy needs to be stronger than IS energy for reasons but no IS medium gets anywhere close to a 75 damage laser alpha, with 22 DHS, while going 82kph and still managing a light fusion engine.

75 damage murders assault mechs in 3 alphas even if you have bad aim with heavy lasers. And thats just one mech... its not uncommon to see assaults die in 1-2 seconds if they get alphad by 2-3 mechs simultaneously.

Theres certainly other problematic weapon combos but that one stands out in particular to me because the hunchback goes 82kph on top of delivering that devastating alphastrike. It doesnt have to sacrifice speed for firepower and its only taking up a medium mech slot as well. I know Ive said that a lot of mediums need buffs but I think the hunchback IIC-A is a little over the top.

the dual UAC20 hunchback IIC is a little more balanced I think because its forced to go like 64kph and not 82kph. in that case you do have to choose between speed and firepower. you cant have your 80 damage alpha and still go 82kph too.

Edited by Khobai, 08 June 2021 - 04:41 AM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 04:01 AM, said:

so yeah Ash's LRM kingcrab is fail. moving on...



Mech armor definitely cant keep up.

I was against some of the cauldron buffs. I certainly didnt agree with them buffing clan laser vomit back to where it was before it was nerfed. It was previously nerfed for a reason.

A medium mech like the hunchback IIC should not be able to driveby you at 82kph for 75 laser damage and repeat that every few seconds. With 22 DHS the hunchback IIC cools down incredibly fast after delivering that alphastrike. Especially with 2 coolants.

the combination of abundant high mount energy hardpoints, lasers with decent range and high damage to tonnage ratios, a fast CXL engine, and massive heatsinkage is still very much a problem IMO. Its a problem on mechs like the hellbringer too among others. I get that clan energy needs to be stronger than IS energy for reasons but no IS medium gets anywhere close to a 75 damage laser alpha, with 22 DHS, while going 82kph and still managing a light fusion engine.

75 damage murders assault mechs in 3 alphas even if you have bad aim with heavy lasers. And thats just one mech... its not uncommon to see assaults die in 1-2 seconds if they get alphad by 2-3 mechs simultaneously.

Theres certainly other problematic weapon combos but that one stands out in particular to me because the hunchback goes 82kph on top of delivering that devastating alphastrike. It doesnt have to sacrifice speed for firepower and its only taking up a medium mech slot as well. I know Ive said that a lot of mediums need buffs but I think the hunchback IIC-A is a little over the top.

the dual UAC20 hunchback IIC is a little more balanced I think because its forced to go like 64kph and not 82kph. in that case you do have to choose between speed and firepower. you cant have your 80 damage alpha and still go 82kph too.

A 2+6 Hunch IIc A that you're describing runs insanely hot, and cannot alpha constantly the way you describe. Even the 2+4 Hunch IIc A runs relatively hot (62 alpha) but is vastly more manageble. The reason that laser vom got buffed is because it was extremely weak compared to ballistic builds. That massive heat investment into laser vom has to be able to do that damage, or its not worth using at all (like the last 2ish years)

[Vlad Ward]

Heavy Money, on 07 June 2021 - 07:10 PM, said:

I understand its natural (especially as a new player) to assume that these are just two disagreeable hotheads having a pissing contest or something, but this is not the case here. This is a respected member of the community trying to protect new players from someone who is either incredibly malicious, incompetent, or both.

Maybe PGI could revive the Community Contributor program to help raise awareness of awesome, informed, helpful posters. Maybe give them forum badges so people know that a certain poster is worth listening to. Eg,

[Heavy Money]

Bobby Bang, on 08 June 2021 - 12:49 AM, said:

Thank you for your post Heavy. I hear what you are saying, and I appreciate that you want to delineate between two posters but that is missing the point, it doesn't matter how great one might be, or how seldom someone might play, or any of that. We are all held to the same standard and this is OUR forum, not someone's private fightclub.

If posters do great things for the game, if a poster has been a positive influence it doesn't mean they get a free pass to be jerk, or to break the COC by bullying or insulting other people, that is not how the COC is written or works, it is the same for everyone. That means nobody can call other posters liars, or stupid, etc... Nobody is above it, otherwise the COC is worthless.

As I said if someone is a "big deal" than they should know how to act like a leader and keep this garbage out of the threads. That goes for both of these jokers, this isn't grade-school, with playground fights and popularity contest, act like bloody adults.

I'm out.

Well, I'm not saying you're wrong, but hang around long enough and you'll understand

[KingCobra37]

If ASSAULT mechs are hella squishy then isn’t that same MEDIUM hunchback 2c with high alpha even easier
to kill compared to them?

Edited by KingCobra37, 08 June 2021 - 12:50 PM.

[Leone]

That usually only happens when taking sub optimal paths to the fight. When piloting a brawler it's important to keep in mind that there are shortcuts, and paths with proper cover. If the enemy is aware of you, don't take the shortcuts.

And yes, there are some maps like Canyon network where if your team allows the enemy can camp down somewhere with open fields of fire all 'round. This is why I never select skirmish. Well, that and five minutes of stealth light hunting at the end of the match.

~Leone.

[Khobai]

KingCobra37, on 08 June 2021 - 09:52 AM, said:

If ASSAULT mechs are hella squishy then isn’t that same MEDIUM hunchback 2c with high alpha even easier
to kill compared to them?

No why would it be easier to kill? It has a significantly smaller profile thats easier to hide. Its more agile. Its way faster. It has high mounted hardpoints that are ideal for poking and minimal exposure.

If anything the hunchback is harder to kill than most assaults when played correctly.

Now I agree in a straight up 1v1 fight where both mechs are facing off against eachother an assault is much tougher. But the hunchback doesnt play by that set of rules. It goes the guerilla warfare route. it flanks behind enemy mechs and shoots them in the back while theyre distracted by its teammates. And it excels at that. Its possibly even too good at it.

___, on 09 June 2021 - 09:15 AM, said:

Yep. This camping is f*cking out of control. Hats off to the cauldron! You have succeeded in turning MWO into Call of Duty!

Trying to maneuver my small pulse grasshopper into position is the worst hell when Comp players and members of the cauldron pop out from cover for .0001 seconds to zap my center torso for over 100 damage. I had 4 games in a row last night where I did zero f*cking damage!!!!

This state of balance is beginning to have a real physical toll on me..

The players behind Cauldron have always pushed sniping metas over brawling ones.

They always start by buffing Gauss/PPCs. Then they want mobility buffs so they can deadzone their mechs better. Then they want reduced ghost heat limits on PPCs and/or desyncing of Gauss/PPC for ghost heat. Then they want jumpjet buffs. All while nerfing lowskill weapons and keeping TTK as low as they can. And now even the map changes hurt brawlers. I suspect its all working towards the same endgame of bringing poptarting back lol. Its not the first time theyve tried to bring poptarting back either.

If they hadnt already done most of the above id probably call it conspiratorial. But theyre following the script almost exactly. Jumpjet buffs are coming next...

justcallme A S H, on 07 June 2021 - 03:25 PM, said:

I mean you think the SCR is a good LRMboat... It's one of the worst Mediums to use.

Because it is a good LRMboat. It has many characteristics that make a good LRMboat. It carries lots of LRMs. It goes fast. It has a solid complement of backup lasers. It can get and hold its own locks. It doesnt cost your team an assault slot.

Youre just closeminded against anything that isnt a top tier mech. Which is unfortunate. And no im not claiming the LRMstormcrow is a top tier build by any means. But its certainly far from the "worst" medium. Its a perfectly capable mech for quickplay.

Vxheous, on 08 June 2021 - 04:55 AM, said:

A 2+6 Hunch IIc A that you're describing runs insanely hot, and cannot alpha constantly the way you describe. Even the 2+4 Hunch IIc A runs relatively hot (62 alpha) but is vastly more manageble. The reason that laser vom got buffed is because it was extremely weak compared to ballistic builds. That massive heat investment into laser vom has to be able to do that damage, or its not worth using at all (like the last 2ish years)

You do realize you dont have to fire all 8 lasers right? Maybe that hadnt occurred to you.

Just because you have 8 lasers doesnt mean you always have to fire 8 lasers. Theyre called weapon groups.

I can also choose to fire a 62 damage alpha simply by firing less lasers. Or I can fire even less lasers than that depending how close my heat is to 100%.

So no the build only runs as hot as you choose to run it. Yes its hot when it fires 8 lasers. But when you need it to do 75 damage it can. And with 22 DHS it absolutely can repeat that alphastrike every 10 seconds or so. Or you can cycle through smaller laser groups and ride your heat close to 100%. it all depends on the situation.

And I still contend that clan laser vomit did not need to be buffed. PGI nerfed clan laser vomit for a reason. Specifically because it was too easy to pack on a 62-75 damage alpha at medium range for a relatively small tonnage/critslot commitment and then run a huge engine to go like 80+ kph while still managing 22-25 heatsinks. The hellbringer is still one of the worst offenders.

Your argument that laser vomit needed buffs because ballistics are better doesnt make sense. Because IS ballistics are nearly as good as Clan ballistics. Yet you dont see IS laser vomit getting buffed. IS laser alphas still do considerably less damage than clan laser alphas. If what you were saying was true it would stand to reason that IS laser alphas need significant buffs too.

I find it curious that Cauldron would buff clan laser vomit but not significantly buff underperforming lasers like the IS large laser which is still absurdly weak for the 5 tons it weighs compared to a clan heavy laser which does twice the damage for less tonnage. A 6 large laser stalker for example still only manages a 54 damage alpha which is considerably less than any clan laser vomit mech (and it has to fire 3/3 because of ghost heat). And 6 large lasers is a massive 30 tons!!! While clan mechs can manage a 62-75 damage laser alpha without ghost heat with roughly the same range for what? 12-14 tons? why did clan laser vomit get buffed while the plight of the large laser was ignored?

Edited by Khobai, 09 June 2021 - 09:17 PM.

[Quandoo]

The recent changes attracted campers and runners and abusers. Whole community turned toxic because of this. And I unistalled the game right now, the current state is a joke. QP is unplayble.

Team is dead before an assault can move into position, rest is hiding. They farm events, rush in, do your 300-400 dmg and die. Then go on with next mech, why bother playing a round till end? You are rewarded for doing nonsense

Edited by Quandoo, 12 June 2021 - 04:05 AM.