65 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Yes, Khobai. You are demanding that. You know - I repeat, you know - that the game's population is not large enough to support splitting the queue into multiple buckets. Nor is "just let solos opt into playing against groups, if they want to!" a solution, because clearly if folks like you were willing to do that you wouldn't be making ridiculous demands insisting people with friends wait over half an hour per drop just to salve your fragile ego.

Stop telling me I can't play with my buddies. The response to that won't be "oh, I guess I'll just play alone then". It'll be "Okay. I guess I'm back to being retired" and I stop playing altogether. So do all my friends. That makes your matchmaking worse, because there's less people to match against. It makes your investment shakier, because people with friends aren't paying into the game anymore. This game is already marginal as ****, only the pandemic throwing everything into a tizzy managed to pull it even slightly out of its nosedive. Every time you say "stop playing with your friends, I don't like it", you're actively threatening the recovery of this game that's still super fragile after a near-death experience so close they'd already dug its grave, carved its headstone, and bought the casket to bury it in.

You want more old players like me to keep coming back? You want new players to pick the game up, get into it and pay their shot? You want to keep finding matches in two or three minutes, instead of two or three hours?

Stop telling me to stop playing with my buddies.

[w0qj]

Guys, let's get back on topic, please!

My theory is that MWO Match Maker treats Assault = Light
Since "the circle of life" in MWO: Light mechs can default Assault mechs

Does this make any sense?

Opponent side:
5 Assault** (= Light mechs)
5 Heavy
2 Medium
0 Light** (ie: NO Light mechs)

Our side:
0 Assault** (ie: NO Assault mechs)
5 Heavy
2 Medium
5 Light** (= Assault mechs)

[1453 R]

My guesstimate, given the issues facing the game, is that the matchmaker cares less about tonnage than it does about PSR, which it cares about less than it cares about keeping matchmaking times down. Lopsided matches like the one you're complaining about happen when the system has to open up every release valve it has to put together a match, any match, with whoever the hell it can get ahold of in whatever the hell they decided to bring.

All the conspiracymongering keeps forgetting that nobody plays this game. The population is super duper low for an online-only arena shooter. I pretty consistently see familiar names occupying over half the total drop bucket for any game I run. I wouldn't see that many known names nearly that frequently if the game had any choice. Population is ultra mega super low, and that means the game has to make do with what it has.

Sometimes that means you get out-Fatness'd. Sometimes that means you fight a team with nine 150kph light 'Mechs and get wolfpacked into oblivion. Sometimes you get lucky and the teams are relatively evenly tonnaged. In none of the aforementioned cases is tonnage the deciding factor, though. Specific 'Mech choice and configuration, and how well each given team is equipped to play the map/gametype they get, is a drastically bigger factor. As I've said before.

[Vlad Ward]

There is no need to guess

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6331251

[justcallme A S H]

1453 R, on 07 June 2021 - 02:11 PM, said:

Yes, Khobai. You are demanding that.

The individual you speak of has been anit-group / anit-social for years.
Has made no end of false claims and statements - disproven many, many times.

Don't expect any of it change - it's a waste of time.

w0qj, on 07 June 2021 - 02:30 PM, said:

Guys, let's get back on topic, please!

My theory is that MWO Match Maker treats Assault = Light
Since "the circle of life" in MWO: Light mechs can default Assault mechs

It has already been answered in the first reply?

Monke-, on 02 June 2021 - 08:17 PM, said:

This isn't the result of the MM doing a poor job of creating teams, this is entirely on the group on your side not making effective use of their tonnage while the enemy group did. Yes there would have still been a tonnage disparity but not to the same level as the screenshot and it would have been within previous possible tonnage disparity.

The 4man dropped mega light and didn't capitalise on it. The end.


Moving on from that - the MM - with groups in it - simply looks at a Group.
Is it a 2man / 3man / 4man?
What is the Tier-average across 4 players?
After that it matches on Tier for Solos.

Far as we know it doesn't care too much about tonnage. Tonnage isn't the biggest issue anyway so it makes sense it's not a key point - then add to the fact the closer you try match tonnage the longer the search times will become.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 07 June 2021 - 05:25 PM.

[Khobai]

1453 R, on 07 June 2021 - 02:11 PM, said:

Yes, Khobai. You are demanding that. You know - I repeat, you know - that the game's population is not large enough to support splitting the queue into multiple buckets.

what are you even talking about? theres more players now than when the decided to combine the queues in the first place. so theres plenty of players to have separate queues now.

justcallme A S H, on 07 June 2021 - 03:13 PM, said:

The individual you speak of has been anit-group / anit-social for years.
Has made no end of false claims and statements - disproven many, many times.

Don't expect any of it change - it's a waste of time.

And yet I continue to prove you wrong every time. And then you stop replying in threads after youve been proven wrong. LMAO.

Im not anti-group either. Im just anti-groups in solo queue.

I dont give a **** what groups do as long as theyre not in solo queue. never have. if groups want to destroy group queue and faction play I couldnt care less. As long as they dont bring that same toxicity to solo queue.

And the only reason I dont want groups in solo queue is because the matchmaker doesnt work. If the matchmaker actually worked I wouldnt even have a problem with groups in solo queue.

Again... if you know groups in solo queue is a problem without a working matchmaker then you shouldnt put groups in solo queue until you have a working matchmaker.

Things need to be done in a logical order. Working matchmaker first. Then mixed queues. If you dont have a working matchmaker you need separate queues.

In fact the game originally had a mixed queue that turned toxic and that was the entire reason why a separate group queue was created in the first place: to get the groups out of solo queue. Repeating the same mistakes of the past and expecting things to change is ridiculous. Mixed queue has never worked before why would anyone think it would suddenly work now?

Also groups in solo queue is likely one of the causes of all the tonnage imbalance problems too. Because the matchmaker is so overtaxed trying to balance tiers for groups it cant adequately balance tonnage anymore. They have it set heavily to prioritize balancing tiers first over tonnage since matchmaker doesnt evaluate group tiers properly and they had to overcompensate for that. Thats why its blowing release valves and sticking like 5 assaults on one team and 2 assaults on another. Its all related.

Edited by Khobai, 07 June 2021 - 03:44 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

A quick call out from the thread linked above: Paul lists the "Average tier difference" in his test set as numeric 300. This makes it obvious that the MM is using actual numeric PSR (0-5000) and not "Tier 1-5" in group building. In other words, No, not all Tier 1's are considered equal. Bar length matters.

[ScrapIron Prime]

justcallme A S H, on 07 June 2021 - 03:13 PM, said:

Far as we know it doesn't care too much about tonnage. Tonnage isn't the biggest issue anyway so it makes sense it's not a key point - then add to the fact the closer you try match tonnage the longer the search times will become.

So do you think it helps to find a match quicker if you pay attention to the percentages ? Will you in fact get a match more quickly if you drop in a light mech when the quick play tab says only 5% of the population is light mechs? Or does the matchmaker factor that in anymore?

[Vlad Ward]

ScrapIron Prime, on 07 June 2021 - 03:23 PM, said:

So do you think it helps to find a match quicker if you pay attention to the percentages ? Will you in fact get a match more quickly if you drop in a light mech when the quick play tab says only 5% of the population is light mechs? Or does the matchmaker factor that in anymore?

Vlad Ward, on 07 June 2021 - 03:12 PM, said:

There is no need to guess

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6331251

[1453 R]

Fair enough, Ash (Ash? A S H? A Single Heatsink?).

It just boggles my mind that someone can seriously think "no, don't bring your friends to MWO, we don't want them" is somehow a healthy opinion for this game. I don't remember many names I've seen since poking my bored head back in here, most of the names I knew from back when I was current appear to be long gone, save for FupDup. A shame. Miss a few of those guys.

Also seems just incredibly dense and shortsighted for people to look at tonnage and nothing but tonnage and determine "Oh noes! The matchmaker screwed me!" The game in the OP had a Whale, two Sun Spiders and a Fattlemaster alive by the end of it, which is not at all a bad show. The game type was Domination, which over-favors fatness - had the game been Conquest the 'winning' team's complete lack of mobile elements would've screwed them. The RIGS team was nigh universally faster than the FH70 team, down to the last 'Mech. Domination is what killed them, not assault 'Mechs. In Skirmish, the RIGS team could've easily dictated the terms of engagement with the slightest coordination; in Conquest the RIGS team would've had four of five caps and been running rings around the FH70 team. Assault is still a more mobile game, and Incursion would've allowed RIGS to control the battery powerups freely since FH70 had no real means of contesting them save one overworked Arctic Wolf.

Obviously we have no idea of loadouts there, but the RIGS side's chassis mostly tend to favor longer-ranged combat, which Viridian Bog doesn't facilitate well. That map is an overgrown clusterfusk of nonsense that heavily favors brutal close-quarters brawling, a.k.a. the specific forte of most competently built Fatbros. Even the FH70 non-Fatness elements are chassis generally better known for close fighting - Novas, Cauldron-Borns, K2 Catapults, a Bounty Hunter Marauder, so on - than the RIGS team. If the RIGS team had the wrong weapons as well as a weight disadvantage on a map that encourages close-quarters mosh merder in the gametype that specifically forbids keeping your distance, with lights not built to chew on assault butts (like, y'know...Fleas, or Raven-3Ls, or roughly half of the game's Cheetahs), then yeah - the gametype and the map both super favor what the FH70 team brought, instead.

Tonnage was maybe five or six down on the list of factors that led to the OP's loss. It's super weird that people legitimately think the weight advantage alone was what led to that flub.

Edited by 1453 R, 07 June 2021 - 03:34 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

It just boggles my mind that someone can seriously think "no, don't bring your friends to MWO, we don't want them" is somehow a healthy opinion for this game.

literally nobody said that.

what boggles my mind is how poor reading comprehension skills are today.

nobody is saying you cant play with your friends. all anyone said was that groups shouldnt be in solo queue. groups belong in their own separate group queue.

separate queues keep everyone happy. solo dont have to play against groups. and groups still get to play with their friends.

but lets be honest here. the reason you want mixed queue because you want you and your friends to be able to prey on solo players so you can win more often. thats why groups are pushing for mixed queue. because they dont want to go back to group vs group where they lost to better groups.

Edited by Khobai, 07 June 2021 - 05:36 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 07 June 2021 - 03:14 PM, said:

And yet I continue to prove you wrong every time. And then you stop replying in threads after youve been proven wrong. LMAO.

You have not proven me wrong, once. I've proven you wrong plenty though over the years... Just some of the sad examples...

Lack of understanding of the Match Maker
Don't understand the difference between Range and Dmg
Claimed 50% of ERPPC dmg was missing - refused to provie evidence
Not possible to have high WLR in SoloQ
Don't know LBKs are 65T, then try to edit posts to hide it

The worst part is this is just the tip of the iceberg with the misinformation you have spread over the years. I could find more buy you know what - you just aren't worth wasting time on anymore.

So yeah these days I do simply stop enaging with you after a few posts. I prove you're wrong and/or dispel your misinformation - other users can read it - that is enough now. My record, understanding and ability speaks for itself.

[justcallme A S H]

ScrapIron Prime, on 07 June 2021 - 03:23 PM, said:

So do you think it helps to find a match quicker if you pay attention to the percentages ? Will you in fact get a match more quickly if you drop in a light mech when the quick play tab says only 5% of the population is light mechs? Or does the matchmaker factor that in anymore?

The in-game percentages have not mattered since 3/3/3/3 was removed a while back now.

[Khobai]

You really

justcallme A S H, on 07 June 2021 - 05:50 PM, said:

You have not proven me wrong, once. I've proven you wrong plenty though over the years... Just some of the sad examples...

I have proven you wrong many times.

Like in the current camping thread where you tried to defend all the noobs using LRM assaults that are dragging their teams down. LRM assaults are horrible wastes of an assault mech 90% of the time and nobody wants them on their teams.

Or when I proved that the CUAC2 is now better than the CUAC5 despite your claims otherwise. Or when you insisted CUAC10s were still one of the strongest clan weapons despite the fact the stats show otherwise and the CUAC10 has severe jamming issues and an obnoxiously long 8s jam duration that still hasnt been addressed by Cauldron. Two CUAC2s are vastly superior to one CUAC10 right now for the same tonnage.

Or more relevant to the current discussion, that time we argued about groups being incredibly unbalanced in solo queue. I wanted groups of 2 in solo queue so I could play with a friend without being stomped in group queue. You told me even a group of 2 would be extremely unbalanced in solo queue.

But as soon as the existence of groups became dependent on mixed queue you sure changed your opinion fast.

Now somehow groups in solo queue are fine? You did a complete 180 reversal on that. LMAO.

You are the biggest hypocrite there is. You and your precious groups completely destroyed group queue and faction play by constantly abusing a broken matchmaker and preying on weaker casual groups and solo players. You turned those gamemodes into cesspools and drove people away from game who couldnt play casually with their friends because they got stomped in group queue constantly. And when those gamemodes died you cried about it to PGI and forced them to add groups to solo queue so you could continue the same toxic behavior of preying on weaker players.

We need separate queues specifically to isolate players like you from everyone else who just wants to play casually. Because the matchmaker certainly doesnt work well enough to do it.

Groups do not belong in solo queue as long as theres no working matchmaker to balance them. Thats just asking for a repeat of the past failings with group queue and faction play. There should absolutely be two separate queues until such a time that the matchmaker is improved enough that it can adequately balance groups vs solo players. And if that never happens, thats fine too, as long as groups are never reintroduced to solo queue.

The sooner PGI reverts the game back to separate queues the better. Otherwise players will start leaving the game in droves just like theyve left in droves every other time PGI has let groups prey on solo players unchecked. The influx of new players due to covid isnt going to last forever. And they wont be retained if they keep losing to groups.

Edited by Khobai, 07 June 2021 - 07:21 PM.

[MrMadguy]

Khobai, on 05 June 2021 - 04:44 AM, said:

tonnage absolutely does matter upto a point

skill being equal, a heavy should always outperform a medium.

most assaults suck though. heavies are the best weight class in the game by a huge margin. they always have been.

the issue with assaults is that fast heavies **** all over them and make them look like a joke in comparison. clan fast heavies run around at 82kph doing 75+ damage alphas and PGI somehow thinks thats okay for the game. CXL is still unbalanced.

matchmaker should not only match tonnage but it should match the quality of mechs too. so even if you have a 100 ton assault, if its a particularly bad assault, matchmaker should take that into account. every mech should have a modified tonnage value based on how good or bad it is for its tonnage. So for example if a 100 ton mech is particular bad it might only count as a 90 ton mech instead for purposes of matchmaking.

It's answer to those guys, who constantly whine about "5 Assaults vs 0 Assaults - bad matchmaker", because 5 Heavies actually >> 5 Assaults. IS Assaults are especially garbage. Assaults are big and slow. They can't use cover properly due to this. They're just easy targets. Assaults are only good as LRM boats with good secondary weapons to counter Lights and Mediums, trying to get close.

Edited by MrMadguy, 07 June 2021 - 07:34 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

MrMadguy, on 07 June 2021 - 07:32 PM, said:

It's answer to those guys, who constantly whine about "5 Assaults vs 0 Assaults - bad matchmaker", because 5 Heavies actually >> 5 Assaults. IS Assaults are especially garbage. Assaults are big and slow. They can't use cover properly due to this. They're just easy targets. Assaults are only good as LRM boats with good secondary weapons to counter Lights and Mediums, trying to get close.

This is not true. What is true is that most people don't know how to build their Assaults and even fewer know when and how to position with them. Because they are slow, you only really get one chance to get it right, so they are particularly punishing to learn.

[Khobai]

MrMadguy, on 07 June 2021 - 07:32 PM, said:

It's answer to those guys, who constantly whine about "5 Assaults vs 0 Assaults - bad matchmaker", because 5 Heavies actually >> 5 Assaults. IS Assaults are especially garbage. Assaults are big and slow. They can't use cover properly due to this. They're just easy targets. Assaults are only good as LRM boats with good secondary weapons to counter Lights and Mediums, trying to get close.

agree with everything you said except assaults being good as lrm boats lol. I still think an lrm assault is a waste of an assault. I laugh out loud every time I see lrm kingcrabs or lrm40 fafnirs with no other weapons.

Y E O N N E, on 07 June 2021 - 07:46 PM, said:

This is not true. What is true is that most people don't know how to build their Assaults and even fewer know when and how to position with them. Because they are slow, you only really get one chance to get it right, so they are particularly punishing to learn.

the problem isnt that theyre punishing to learn its that theyre not really rewarding to learn

when you have to try harder than a heavy to do equally well as a heavy and try a lot harder than a heavy to do better than a heavy you might as well just play a heavy. And if you make one mistake your ****ed unlike a heavy which is way more forgiving. which is why most people play heavies.

and all the slow walking assaults have to do that takes forever. Its ****ing boring. and your team abandons you and makes you fight off lights by yourself..

theres very little about assaults thats rewarding. theyre miserable to play.

especially in the current meta where even 3 alphas from a medium kills an assault (2 alphas if its in the back)

Edited by Khobai, 07 June 2021 - 08:25 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 07 June 2021 - 06:21 PM, said:

And when those gamemodes died you cried about it to PGI and forced them to add groups to solo queue so you could continue the same toxic behavior of preying on weaker players.

UAC10s are still insanely strong. LRM Assaults are extremely strong - There is just no point trying to tell you, you don't want open your mind to learn because that would mean I'm right.


Anyway - once again making things up, deliberately misquoting - the usual.

FACT - I did not cry to PGI to force them to add groups into SoloQ.

Prove I did, show me the information. I'll wait.

In the mean time - I have been against the Queue Merger from the outset.
Source: Combining Group/Solo thread by Paul - Post 1 / Post 2 / Post 3 etc etc.

There are many more forum posts where I've repeated that position. Pretty clearly you're making stuff up, again. You just cannot expect anyone to take you seriously or believe a word you say when you blatantly try to claim things that are simply not true.

I have previously said many times:

• My stomps would increase due to groups.
  
• High skill player groups would dominate.
  
• Groups would overall have a large impact on the queue.

I was correct on the first two. The 3rd, not so much.

Turns out match influence by groups on the Queue is mostly an issue at the high end of town. By that I mean - when there is a groups of ~95%+ players.

Outside of that matches with groups of Tier 2 - Tier 5, I haven't really seen the level of impact expected due to how they play at that skill level.

• Casual groups / mates.
  
• Units (Casual/non-competitive).
  
• Streamer/Content creator groups.

Anyone can look up all of the public data and see the more casual players who play in groups regularly - their stats remain unchanged. It is all verfiable. If they were having a strong impact on match outcomes their WLRs, KDRs etc would rise and that has't happened at all.

As T2-T5 is were the vast majority of the playerbase volume sits and these players just aren't infulencing games to a level to be able to notice - Are groups really an issue? Not as much as first thought.

One cannot put their head in the sand and pretend that for many other players it's been a positive outcome for a large portion of players.

The MM needs fixing as I've posted many, many times. No secondary lobby balancing has been a key problem long before the merger and remains a problem today.


Either way - stop misquoting & making up false statements. You cannot expect anyone to take anything you say seriously if you're constantly making up nonsense.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 07 June 2021 - 09:30 PM, said:

UAC10s are still insanely strong.

not really lol. I dont know how you could possibly think an 8s jam duration is okay. it makes the CUAC10 absolutely miserable to use. especially since theres still jam bugs where it jams when it shouldnt. And countless people have witnessed it and complained about it.

stats show that that CUAC10 has been surpassed by the CUAC2 for any mech that can take two CUAC2s for the same tonnage. So the only time the CUAC10 is better is when youre hardpoint limited and cant take two CUAC2s (and for some reason you dont want to use the mostly superior CUAC20). Which is only relevant on a small handful of mechs.

And the CUAC20 is good enough now that dual CUAC20 is superior on a lot of builds that used to use dual CUAC10s like the hunchback IIC. Dual CUAC20 hunchbacks are absolutely monstrous putting out 80 damage alphas with super high hardpoints.

So between the CUAC2 buffs and the CUAC20 buffs the CUAC10 has lost a lot of ground. Thats a fact.

Not to mention the CUAC2 is now flat out superior to the CUAC5 in pretty much every way. Theres absolutely no reason to use the CUAC5 at all anymore. the CUAC5 just doesnt deliver enough ultra dps to be worth the extra tonnage over the CUAC2 anymore while being inferior to the CUAC2 in virtually every other category.

You can compare them yourself. Unless you would rather plunge yourself into denial and accuse me of being wrong about the stats I copied into excel directly from the official api files.



You are definitely wrong about the CUAC5 and CUAC10.

Not that this has anything to do with the lopsided matchmaker. Just proving that Ash is wrong as usual.

Edited by Khobai, 07 June 2021 - 10:39 PM.

[1453 R]

Just gonna comment on this one in specific, because it amuses me so much.

Khobai, on 07 June 2021 - 05:31 PM, said:

literally nobody said that.

what boggles my mind is how poor reading comprehension skills are today.

nobody is saying you cant play with your friends. all anyone said was that groups shouldnt be in solo queue. groups belong in their own separate group queue.

separate queues keep everyone happy. solo dont have to play against groups. and groups still get to play with their friends.

but lets be honest here. the reason you want mixed queue because you want you and your friends to be able to prey on solo players so you can win more often. thats why groups are pushing for mixed queue. because they dont want to go back to group vs group where they lost to better groups.

HEEEEEEH Heh heh. Heh.

Man.

Do I look like I've been clubbin' them good seals, farming them poor defenseless solos with the rest of my Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Navy Seal-Clubbers of Disapproval cabal of vicious, heartless fiends bent on the subjugation of all of MWO beneath our iron heels?

Or do I look more like a tier 5 jackass with terrible aim and overaggression issues who plays the game with their buddies because MWO is taking its turn in the Multiplayer Game of Choice rotation and we all like screwing around with whatever feels amusing to pilot on a given night?

Your argument doesn't even make sense, dude. If I was some high-tier meta-humping robojock obsessed with my stats, then maybe - but I've been spending my time trying to get people to Embrace The Suck and realize that "terrible matchmaking" isn't the reason they've been losing games pretty much since the day I got back here. I am the very last person on this board anyone would buy as some sort of video-game war criminal doing my best to continue abusing poor, traumatized solo players.

Besides. Y'all have guns, don't ye? Y'all have armor, and your own giant robits? You're so all-fired convinced players dropping with their buddies are all some sort of unified faceless doomsday cult trying to murder the game? Shoot us. Prioritize destruction of group players. Get your fellow zombie-survivor solos to band together in righteous defense of your ideal MWO, where nobody ever has friends again and everybody is equally lonely, and shoot grouped players. Start your resistance movement, Khobai.

Let's see how it goes.