619 replies to this topic

[Xeno Phalcon]

The more I read the more I could only think of one thing.

[Meep Meep]

If I feel like backstabbing in a fish then this is my go to build. Instantly melts through 20 back armor then commences to celebrate critmas in july. Extra mojo generated if you use the bell warhorn.

PIR-1 Thief +4 Longsword

Ammo isn't the best but this isn't meant for anything other than waiting for the chance to run up behind a mech and delete them. If you can kill one heavy or assault you did your duty that match and if you get lucky you might get a couple or even three.

[justcallme A S H]

Y'all wanna be scared of Danger Feeeesh?

This is the one - no Heavy lasers, just instant/clean burns.

PIR-2


The MG Fish might hurt but that one is the scary boi. You see it coming, you do NOT want it behind you. Hell it can leg you mega, mega fast too where the MG one cannot.

[Captain Caveman DE]

justcallme A S H, on 11 June 2021 - 12:22 AM, said:

Y'all wanna be scared of Danger Feeeesh?

This is the one - no Heavy lasers, just instant/clean burns.

PIR-2


The MG Fish might hurt but that one is the scary boi. You see it coming, you do NOT want it behind you. Hell it can leg you mega, mega fast too where the MG one cannot.

https://youtu.be/E_KkrTYQPEw

Go, go, Piranha!

[Storming Angel]

The only light i seem to have the most issues with is the micro laser piranha, otherwise i find lights to have high skill floors and very high skill ceilings requiring careful playing and a lot of patience really, especially the bigger lights which have less luck trying to hide themselves from return fire.

Maybe that could do with a nerf of somekind and/or a buff to structure and armour (like 10% to start off with, either with certain mechs or scale it based on class and least played or whatever.)

Idk, i see lights as mostly opportunists, assassins, distractors and support than anything else really.

[PocketYoda]

Yes they are if used right, they are some of the most powerful mechs in the game, for various reasons.. Lag shield is their strongest, their movement speeds are so high it takes multiple mechs to take most down.

Their weapons on many equal a heavy or an assault.. yes most are close range but can successfully do incredible amounts of damage in a short time.

Then you have packs of them that can disable or destroy a whole lance of Assaults in minutes if not seconds..

Are they overpowered? damn right they are. Anyone saying they aren't are lying in hopes they don't get nerfed.

Edited by MechaGnome, 11 June 2021 - 05:18 AM.

[Dogstar]

MechaGnome, on 11 June 2021 - 05:16 AM, said:

Yes they are if used right, they are some of the most powerful mechs in the game, for various reasons.. Lag shield is their strongest, their movement speeds are so high it takes multiple mechs to take most down.

Their weapons on many equal a heavy or an assault.. yes most are close range but can successfully do incredible amounts of damage in a short time.

Then you have packs of them that can disable or destroy a whole lance of Assaults in minutes if not seconds..

Are they overpowered? damn right they are. Anyone saying they aren't are lying in hopes they don't get nerfed.

Sorry but while I'm normally in agreement with you I simply can't agree with this. As has been pointed out if light mechs really were OP then everyone would play them instead of heavies and assaults, but in fact they are consistently the least played class.

Some light mechs do have an OP trick up their sleeves, that's not in doubt and we all know which ones the culprits are, but to label all light mechs as OP is wrong.

Agility increases are coming later this month, we will soon see how light mechs fare once twist and pitch are improved across the board - I suspect they will rapidly disappear except for the culprits mentioned before.

[Der Geisterbaer]

This is going to be more of a demonstration than an actual continuation of the original conversation. The level of intellectual dishonesty is still quite entertaining.

Khobai said:

Wait you all agree with me that piranhas can kill assaults in 5 seconds?

Something inbetween false dilemma and strawman... If anything I agreed that PIRs can kill previously unharmed assaults in 5 seconds under very unrealistic / highly specific circumstances that would have to be considered "edge cases".

Khobai said:

but somehow im not arguing in good faith?

You certaintly are not arguing in good faith, because you deliberately are employing various fallacies, outright lie and try to move goal posts not only with regards to demanded proof but with regards to your original claims as well.

Khobai said:

You asked me what mech.

Check

Khobai said:

you asked me what conditions.

Check

Khobai said:

I told you.

Incorrect

Khobai said:

And its absolutely true.

No, "it" isn't and you haven't provided actual proof

Khobai said:

Yes the conditions have to be perfect but I admitted as much.

No you actually didn't. You even claimed: its not some fallacious edge case it literally happens all the time lol.

Khobai said:

Also I said mechs with combined armor and structure of 70 or less would die in 5 seconds.

And then I asked you to name the amount of Assault mechs that would fall into that category, because that was the context. "Somehow" you failed to answer that and "we" thus certainly never got to the point where "we" could answer the question if you were turning it even more into an edge case because now it's not an only unrealistic encounter scenario but you also cut down the number of potentially affected Assault mechs.

Khobai said:

Given that the piranha does 13 dps x 5 seconds = 65 damage(not including the bonus damage machine guns do to structure) my numbers are pretty spot on.

Within all those constraints your numbers are "spot on" but still "useless"

Khobai said:

But you started doing tests on atlases to try and prove me wrong.

Your original claim still was and i: the problem is when 1 piranha murders you in 5 seconds. while in context of speaking about the entire weight class of "Assaults".

Now try to guess again why I tested on Assaults under conditions that came closest to the highly specific edge case scenario you decided to base your claims on while also claiming that it wasn't an edge case scenario.

Khobai said:

Atlases DO NOT have combined armor and structure of 70 or less.

Noone ever said otherwise

Khobai said:

Especially not the ones in testing grounds with like 20-30 back armor. They have WAY more.

Irrelevant

Khobai said:

youre the one testing things in bad faith.

Nope

Khobai said:

because its literally the only way you could counter my argument.by creating a phony test thats outside the specifications I gave.

Fun fact I: I tested within the only environment where the vast mojority of your special case constraints could be met closest

Fun fact II: You are confusing "argument" and "claim". There were no "arguments" to be countered in your claims for which you in addition to not actually having arguments also failed to provide proof.

Khobai said:

And i just got out of a game in my Piranha a few minutes ago where this commando and me completely murdered a marauder and it literally took less than 5 seconds to kill it from behind after the commando got it turned away from me.

Well isn't that funny: Now we're back to that 2 vs. 1 scenario where you yourself stated earlier:

you should lose a 2 v 1

the problem is when 1 piranha murders you in 5 seconds.

Khobai said:

Piranhas absolutely can kill assaults in like 5 seconds under the right circumstances.

Fun fact: Nobody - not even me - diputed that there are (edge case) conditions under which a Piranha (be it the PIR-1, PIR-2 or PIR-2) can indeed kill in "like 5 seconds" (also note the deliberate softening of your original claim by now adding 'like') but the real "issue" still is whether or not such a 5 second kill represents a "problem" as per your original claim and whether or not the conditions you have talked about constitute an edge case scenario vs. being common enough to be considered a "problem".

Any condition where you try to skew the scenario like you did by suddenly stipulating prior damage or limiting the scenario to a subset of Assault mechs (with that 70 armor + structure caveat) or neglecting to originally mentioning the perfect shooting conditions between totally immobile opponents at perfect weapon range then turns your "argument" in intellectually dishonest attempts of deflecting

Khobai said:

And im not even very good at piloting a Piranha. But even Im killing assaults in them every other game or so. Admittedly Im having some bad games too where I cant seem to do anything.

Irrelevant

Khobai said:

Lights are definitely not overpowered though. The problem is assault scaling and pitch and crappy teammates that dont support them.

Make up your mind then. I already quoted you on your earlier statement of "the problem is when 1 piranha murders you in 5 seconds." and then you proceded to talk about a scenario where mech size (scaling) is irrelevant and pitch doesn't come into play (because the PIR supposedly attacks a full unhindered 5 seconds from behind) and being without support by team members also is the default assumption to make your "problem" work.

Khobai said:

um when did I ever say lights were overpowered? I never said it.

Stawman argument because I never said you had made that particular claim ... and an attempt to deflect from the direct implication of your original claim: "the problem is when 1 piranha murders you in 5 seconds."
Because the implication of that claim is that at least the PIRs are "overpowered" in some sense ... otherwise they could never logically pose a "problem".

Khobai said:

again I said assaults and players are the problem not lights. .

Again you're conveniently ignoring your own claim: "the problem is when 1 piranha murders you in 5 seconds."

Khobai said:

the existence of mechs like the piranha isnt a reason to nerf lights.

Oh, so then a Piranha murdering a mech in 5 seconds isn't a problem at all? ~laugh~

Khobai said:

its a reason to buff assaults.

And that's what's called non-sequitur ... yet another fallacy and driven in part by your intellectual dishonesty

So now I'm really "done" with you in here.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 11 June 2021 - 05:45 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

This thread is entertaining. Its almost like 90% of all mechs that drop in matches are lights, and assaults are unicorns.

Threads like this make me really really wish you had to advance from light to medium to heavy to assault.

Seriously, this would stop threads like this in its tracks.

Some lights are strong, especially in the right hands, but the vast majority of them are Tier 4-5

Edited by Darian DelFord, 11 June 2021 - 05:50 AM.

[Curccu]

How many of these lights are OP tread OPs and their yes mens actually have played a light mech and/or can consistently have lets say ~300 match score with them (no smurf accounts allowed)? No 99% of cases they cannot, instead they are clueless as Russ Bullock was with his absurd 6MG Spider killing Atlai in 5 seconds? post back in the day.

Peoples mouths are foaming when they are preaching about 5-6 second assault kill with piranha from behind within ~150meters and same time almost every assault mech in the game can 1 shot piranha from any direction and usually with range multiple times MGs optimal or max range.

If something feels OP go play it, try it for 10-20 games... if it still feels stupid OP, then make a post and present screenshots/videos to have some weight behind that opinion.

PS. and yes there are some insanely good light pilots or was at least that can make lights look OP but 95% of player base CANNOT match that performance, not even close.

[Storming Angel]

Darian DelFord, on 11 June 2021 - 05:47 AM, said:

This thread is entertaining. Its almost like 90% of all mechs that drop in matches are lights, and assaults are unicorns.

Threads like this make me really really wish you had to advance from light to medium to heavy to assault.

Seriously, this would stop threads like this in its tracks.

Some lights are strong, especially in the right hands, but the vast majority of them are Tier 4-5

Ye, they are good at harassment, anti-light operations, skirmishing, peeking, assassinations (very hard to pull off against good and/or aware players), scouting and general 2nd line or 3rd line support.

I think it's because when people think of assault mech they think of a large very powerful and incredibly durable mech that can weather the barrage of multiple mechs at once and still cause considerable damage.

Although i think peeps forget all mechs get access to the same types of weapons with the same type of power, heat and range (obviously clan and IS are somewhat different but still.) So when they get killed by some mech that barely reaches their assaults knee cap from behind, thats what probs triggers them off in general.

I've heard that lights in MW5 become pointless after sometime or far less used anyways when you get the bigger walkers onto the field instead.

[justcallme A S H]

MechaGnome, on 11 June 2021 - 05:16 AM, said:

Lag shield is their strongest,

Lag Shield?

I play with 240ms++. At the highest level in the game. It is simply not a thing, at all.

MWO uses Host State Rewind and it is explained in great detail.


---> CLICK ME <---



You should understand how the game works before making completely false claims.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 11 June 2021 - 08:08 AM.

[1453 R]

There's a meme I like that occasionally makes the rounds in the firearm enthusiasts/hobby shooters community. Dispensing with images, it goes: "Most average users do not need a 3,000-dollar AR-15. Most average users need a 700-dollar AR-15 and 2300 dollars' worth of training."

It reminds me, in a humorous way, that there's no real substitute for knowing what you're doing and spending time and effort practicing. If one is consistently unable to hit light 'Mechs, it is not due to a 'Lag Shield' or lights being too fast to see. It is due to one's aim not being good enough. Now, I'm not a Church of Skill adherent who believes that the ability to click a funky crosshair pointer on a certain set of pixels no matter the duress I'm under is a Supreme Talent that must be cultivated to the exclusion of all else. I firmly believe lock-on and other "Bad Aim Forgiveness" weapons absolutely have a place not only in MWO, but in most any shooter. But...well.

Mebbe consider whether you need 2300 dollars' worth of training before complaining that Lights are Ohh-Pee on the forums.


The other thing that ol' meme is good for is reminding me not to spend an absurd amount of money I really don't have on gussied-up gamer guns too fancy for their own good, no matter how much I wanna shoot 'em. A lesson which is also good to keep in mind for MWO, come to think of it...

[John Bronco]

Part of it is just that a large portion of this community has never played any games outside of the BT/MW franchise.

In that context lights do seem fast and hard to hit, but with more diverse gaming experience they aren't particularly fast or difficult to click on.

[Darian DelFord]

justcallme A S H, on 11 June 2021 - 07:45 AM, said:

Lag Shield?

I play with 240ms++. At the highest level in the game. It is simply not a thing, at all.

MWO uses Host State Rewind and it is explained in great detail.


---> CLICK ME <---



You should understand how the game works before making completely false claims.

Yup Yup....... Lag shield ain't been a thing in years, unless the servers are acting wonky but that is a rarity, and usually then all kinds of strange things happen. <Attempts to find The B33F's video but can't find it)

[MechNexus]

Again, Backstab lights are not OP. The only real outlier in regards to damage output as far as lights go is the Piranha Ash described a few posts ago, and what's still true of it and other common backstab lights is that they are made of paper. The part you wanna go for is always a leg first so they're a sitting duck, and before quirks (the Piranha in question has none) they have 24 total points (16 armour, 8 structure) of health to go through. Three large lasers, a comfortable fit for a panther - that's 27 damage. Bump up to a wolverine and that's 36. Just sweep their legs with lasers or MRMs, and you'll be fine. Their speed may allow them to dodge a lot of fire, but they need to keep getting lucky - you only need to get lucky once. Backstab lights are genuinely difficult to play and you're letting your experiences with the good players paint a picture of the archetype as a whole - for every Piranha pilot who can wreak havoc on a team's back lines, there's 5 who get melted instantly.

[MrMadguy]

Curccu, on 11 June 2021 - 06:44 AM, said:

How many of these lights are OP tread OPs and their yes mens actually have played a light mech and/or can consistently have lets say ~300 match score with them (no smurf accounts allowed)? No 99% of cases they cannot, instead they are clueless as Russ Bullock was with his absurd 6MG Spider killing Atlai in 5 seconds? post back in the day.

Peoples mouths are foaming when they are preaching about 5-6 second assault kill with piranha from behind within ~150meters and same time almost every assault mech in the game can 1 shot piranha from any direction and usually with range multiple times MGs optimal or max range.

If something feels OP go play it, try it for 10-20 games... if it still feels stupid OP, then make a post and present screenshots/videos to have some weight behind that opinion.

PS. and yes there are some insanely good light pilots or was at least that can make lights look OP but 95% of player base CANNOT match that performance, not even close.

Do you really think it's that hard? Please note, that it's trial 'Mech and I have 0 Light piloting experience.

Edited by MrMadguy, 11 June 2021 - 09:08 AM.

[Nightbird]

My observations is that the less one plays lights, the more one complains about lights lol.

[Capt Deadpool]

MrMadguy, on 11 June 2021 - 09:06 AM, said:

Do you really think it's that hard? Please note, that it's trial 'Mech and I have 0 Light piloting experience.

You do realize that any player can do this for literally any mech they 'don't have experience with', that a 2-kill 570 damage game can be achieved in any mech, that you are disregarding all metrics and statistics relating to the relative effectiveness of the four weight classes, and that your post proves absolutely nothing?

[pattonesque]

MrMadguy, on 11 June 2021 - 09:06 AM, said:

Do you really think it's that hard? Please note, that it's trial 'Mech and I have 0 Light piloting experience.

one decent game in any mech doesn't mean anything