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Light Mechs Too Powerful


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#21 JediPanther

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 12:46 PM

View PostScrapIron Prime, on 09 June 2021 - 11:02 AM, said:

Conquest match on Frozen City classic yesterday, piloting Marauder 3R (2 PPC, 2 AC/5). I headed to the Theta cap alone, encountered two stealth locusts and a stealth flea. Danced with them for quite some time but killed all three by one-shotting side torsos. Game ended shortly thereafter. My total damage done... 85.

The wolf pack of them wasn't so much the threat to me, it was the match score penalty I received for only encountering and killing tiny mechs. Sigh.


I find your gunnery skills against an infestation impressive. Most pilots with that load out would have died in a 3 vs 1 against stealth-ed bugs. They must have been poor pilots.

#22 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 12:51 PM

View PostNine-Ball, on 09 June 2021 - 12:27 PM, said:

Honestly, if you can snipe and take out a light in a single alpha while they're in full sprint mode while juking left and right I must ask what sorta aim-bot you are using.

But for the sake of argument, what would be the most effective counter for a light? Running a splat build?


I did. Scroll up. Using an old GTX 1050 card on a 6 year old windows 8 machine. It just takes patience.

And the right weapons. The best way to quickly eliminate a light mech is with pinpoint damage. Lasers and missiles spread out and are inefficient. PPC's and large bore autocannons do tons of damage at once to a single body location. Mounting them on a relatively mobile mech is the best way to take out a circling light.

multi-PPC builds are the bane of light mechs. and they're extremely common, which is one reason light mechs are the least played weight class. While a gauss boat Fafnir may not be able to turn fast enough to get the flea out of his shorts, a Vapor Eagle or Snub+20 Warhammer certainly can!

#23 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 12:54 PM

View PostJediPanther, on 09 June 2021 - 12:46 PM, said:

I find your gunnery skills against an infestation impressive. Most pilots with that load out would have died in a 3 vs 1 against stealth-ed bugs. They must have been poor pilots.


Oh i took well over 300 damage from them, don't get me wrong. But I kept moving backwards and put my back to a wall as often as i could to make coring me out harder. then you wait for them to stop jinking back and forth for just a second. Exhale, pull trigger. Posted Image

#24 Capt Deadpool

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 01:05 PM

View PostNine-Ball, on 09 June 2021 - 12:27 PM, said:


Kind of hard to "counter" a light that shrugs off 90% of your damage because they're running full speed and your barely able to keep a bead on them.

But I suspect that high-horse of yours is depriving you of oxygen making you unable to think clearly.

Honestly, if you can snipe and take out a light in a single alpha while they're in full sprint mode while juking left and right I must ask what sorta aim-bot you are using.

But for the sake of argument, what would be the most effective counter for a light? Running a splat build?


I realize that what I said may be offensive to someone in a lower tier who is under the impression that they may have the same knowledge of how to counter lights as the higher tiers, but it is true. You only need to look at the stats to see how few people play lights compared to the other classes, my dude. If they were as OP as you think everyone would be playing them. I can fairly guarantee you that it is not T5 lights that are tearing apart T5 teams...

And even before the recent weapon buff, there were plenty of good players who could hit me with PPFLD while I was running at full speed and even juking in my Flea, albeit likely with quirked velocity builds. Now, players with worse aim are hitting me with greater frequency due to increased velocities.

The skill ceiling of this game is not as high as you seem to believe it is, go play CS 1.6 or CS-GO for a while and get back to me... Decent amateur level comp players cannot even play in public servers because at a certain skill level the masses cannot even discern between skill and aimbot/well hax. Ask me how I know... (though I am well, well past my physical prime when I was competing). This is not even to mention the higher level pros, who literally are examples of some of the best reaction and aiming ability on the planet earth if you watch matches, what they do is absolutely inhuman and yet done completely without cheats. So I would be careful of accusing people in-game because it only makes you look like a tater....

And to answer you last question, I already mentioned it above: short duration lasers with duration nodes taken (IS MPL, small pulses or micros), SRMs, or streaks with a tag and BAP. PPFLD weapons once your aim gets better. But the most important thing is situational awareness-lights prey on the isolated and injured, there is strength in numbers, so don't get isolated.

#25 Saved By The Bell

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 01:08 PM

Stil powerful? After size update? No way.

#26 Capt Deadpool

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 01:28 PM

View PostLockheed_, on 09 June 2021 - 01:15 PM, said:

half of the time they are higher tier players who don't like getting instagibbed (by something that appears visually as though it should be small and insignificant though they have no problem getting instagibbed far more frequently by assaults, because assaults SHOULD instagib mechs because they so big and powerful looking... lol)


slightly fixed :)

#27 Catra Lanis

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 02:02 PM

Leveling 3 lights on my alt. I'll write down some thoughts when I'm done but I can tell you right now that lights don't need any help as a class. Some lights do, but lights are by and large in a pretty ok spot.

#28 Nine-Ball

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 02:08 PM

Not offensive, just ignorant.

I tend to see it from players like you who think they're the bees-knee.

View PostCapt Deadpool, on 09 June 2021 - 01:05 PM, said:

The skill ceiling of this game is not as high as you seem to believe it is, go play CS 1.6 or CS-GO for a while and get back to me... Decent amateur level comp players cannot even play in public servers because at a certain skill level the masses cannot even discern between skill and aimbot/well hax. Ask me how I know... (though I am well, well past my physical prime when I was competing). This is not even to mention the higher level pros, who literally are examples of some of the best reaction and aiming ability on the planet earth if you watch matches, what they do is absolutely inhuman and yet done completely without cheats. So I would be careful of accusing people in-game because it only makes you look like a tater....


Counter-Strike is only high-level of play in public servers because the general playerbase has been playing the game for over a decade at a minimum on the same 6 map rotation without pause. The same guns, the same maps, the same techniques and "tactics" used and refined over 10+ years.

And yeah, it is not hard to attain a god-level of aiming in a game when you invest hundreds of thousands of hours into the thing.

Skill is a time investment, true talent is something you have or don't have. That is why 95% of the players in pubs are not in leagues.

But for me having good aim is just the start. Because sadly even with the best aim you can't react fast enough when someone with equal skill catches you unaware with your pants down. When a competition between the best happens, its not a matter of who has the best aim, its a matter of who falters first and screws up the game plan. True high level play and not the notch or two below that level of play for those not rounded enough to be bench-warmers.

But where am I going with this you wonder? I'll get there eventually. Anyways, as someone who actually has experience in high-end league play in an obscure game from before even CS was a mod, from where I lead clans, competed with the best and did it all, all the while stomping TFC pubs as a revolutionary sniper; speaking from such experience means I am able to take into account more than a simple "get gud scrub".

Because sadly as a solo-pubber you have to make do with who you're teamed with. As someone who runs his Battlemaster exclusively because he loves it, I can't be expected to counter lights at the same time as I am needed to initiate combat as an Assault. If I catch a light unaware I can make them regret their decision, but aside from you forcing me to toot my own horn, I don't make my arguments based around my singular ability to demolish lights and the enemy opposition, otherwise I would come off just as ignorant as you if I was talking to someone else who had a problem with something else.

No, the issue with lights being overpowered is due to the fact their broken jank meta builds that can quickly turn a match in the favor of one team or another faster than you can reply to this post. Kind of hard for me or any assault to do much of anything when a pair of lights working in tandem slowly snowballs your team and you end up an entire lance down before the Assaults even reach brawling range; the assaults that run their brawling builds in the hopes of one-striking those pesky lights able to back-core them with little to no effort.

Khobai is onto something when he says newer players end up getting railed because it is true, they don't know how to effectively counter them or how to try to ignore them while focusing on the real threat (the other assault lance). This reinforces bad behavior because they end up throwing together ineffective counters or other jank meta builds that are useless outside of 90% of combat situations (the other 10% being the push where everybody brings guns to bear).

This leads to endless deathballing nascar because people don't want to risk playing loose enough to where an effective counter or help to fend off a light isn't close enough and you get back-cored or lose an arm. And what do you think happens next? Everybody ends up playing passively expecting someone to bust out a wonder build that magically solves the tactical conundrum people nascar'd themselves into.

The vast majority of the issues surrounding lights can easily be fixed if they simply resized them because even at a piddling 100m trying to hit their torso is like trying to snipe from T-spawn in Dust 2 with a non-sniper. Then factor in the lag shield and their move speed which means even my RAC/5 with free arm movement has trouble keeping up with them and people expect newer players or people who bring torso-focused builds with poor movement range ala fafnirs, atlai, or whatever other 100-ton you care to muster should just magically shoot through their combined lag-shield and movement speed? Yeah ok.

PS. This is the 3rd time my rating has been reset. Just a matter of time before I claw my way upto Tier 1 again. And what do you think I will see when I get their? An improvement over Tier 3 randomness? Hahaha, no. Just no.

Edited by Nine-Ball, 09 June 2021 - 02:16 PM.


#29 John Bronco

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 02:13 PM

I agree.

One time I was playing an assault mech, and a light mech killed me.

That should never happen.

#30 Xeno Phalcon

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 02:16 PM

Just keep playing your way, leave the little ******** to us light-hunters. Dusted off my cicada the other day to work on the medium laser damage part of the event ended up chasing so many of them around the map raking legs was a riot.

#31 Khobai

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 02:35 PM

View PostCapt Deadpool, on 09 June 2021 - 11:50 AM, said:

As I mentioned, I suspect most of the players who complain about lights being OP are lower tier players where there is a lack of knowledge of how to counter them.


which is precisely why streaks existed.

But cauldron nerfed streaks.

thats why lower tier players cant deal with lights anymore

#32 RickySpanish

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 02:36 PM

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em OP. Go buy yourself a Flea and load 'er up with an xl-180 and small pulse lasers and go to town. You'll quickly learn their strengths and weaknesses and probably have fun doing it too. I'd recommend sticking to IS Lights to begin with, as Clan Light 'Mechs are comparitively slow or extremely easy to destroy.

Lights are very good though, yes. In the hands of a semi competent pilot they punch well above their weight, because most people think they're rubbish and don't give them the respect they deserve. If you let a Light get close (nevermind behind you) their short range weapons will easily put out close to the same sustained damage as you. BUT they do also have a higher skill cap compared to Mediums and Heavies. Not just anyone can do well in a Light, so those guys cutting through your team are probably, actually, quite good.

#33 1453 R

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 02:37 PM

Worth reiterating: the best counter to light 'Mechs is shooting them.

I've been having a ton of fun in my very nearly bone-stock Nova Cat-D recently, whose claim to fame is being able to fire three heavy large lasers at once without Spoopy Heat telling me to go cook myself. HLLs are...not the shortest burntime lasers. Hell, I'm pretty sure they're the longest burntime in the game unless they re-nerfed cERLLs again. I've got ~1.5s lightsabers and a shotgun, often considered the worst anti-light weapons. Ye know what I do when a light 'mech starts nipping at me?

I shoot it.

Sure, I miss a lot. I don't/can't hold my lasers on the critters for much more'n half their burntime, if even that, provided the light is juking. I am in T5, you'd be surprised how often one pulls a straight-line attack run and gets burned for his efforts. My autocannon ticks a few pellets here and there. And ye know what usually happens? The light ***** off and goes away, because even glancing hits are not necessarily insignificant when you have maybe thirty points of armor on a given extremity. Because I shoot it, and thusly let it know it doesn't get to chew on my *** without me chewing back, it decides to look for someone else to chew on. With some fresh new dinged-up armor for the road.

Yeah, sure. Sometimes I get nibbled to death by a determined light pilot who knows their ****, or I get swarmed and cut apart. And sometimes I get a good, lucky burn in and harvest a ST or a leg, and the light proceeds to suck. One good, solid whack with that LB-10/X tends to remind them that I'm a fuggin' Nova Cat and they need to step careful around me. Not to mention my buddy Maker, who's made something of an art form out of heavy-goosing Commando kneecaps. Again - he shoots lights, and lights are significantly less of a problem for him.

Yeah, you miss sometimes. A lot of times, to be honest. But you also don't have to hit nearly as hard as a lot of people think they do in order to get light 'Mechs to ********** and let you be. You just have to hit them enough to remind them that you know exactly what they're doing and you ain't having it.

#34 Novakaine

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 02:47 PM

It's simple as primarily an Assault player I know their coming for me personally.
Act accordingly stay with the pack or at the very least ask for an escort until you can.
9 times out of 10 someone will help you.
Use their speed against them with some nifty use of terrain.
And if you do get ganked put your rear exhaust port against something solid to limit the circle jerk.
Torso twisting is friend here.
They will cross your line of sight a some point then boomPosted Image

#35 pattonesque

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 02:59 PM

just shoot them dude jeez

you get a build with a nice PPFLD alpha and just shoot them in the leg or side torso or whatever

I mean sure sometimes they can juke, but it's entirely possible to one- or two-shot many lights even if you're getting swarmed

when I play lights I'm constantly aware of this. one wrong move and it's gg

View Post1453 R, on 09 June 2021 - 02:37 PM, said:

Ye know what I do when a light 'mech starts nipping at me?

I shoot it.

Sure, I miss a lot. I don't/can't hold my lasers on the critters for much more'n half their burntime, if even that, provided the light is juking. I am in T5, you'd be surprised how often one pulls a straight-line attack run and gets burned for his efforts. My autocannon ticks a few pellets here and there. And ye know what usually happens? The light ***** off and goes away, because even glancing hits are not necessarily insignificant when you have maybe thirty points of armor on a given extremity. Because I shoot it, and thusly let it know it doesn't get to chew on my *** without me chewing back, it decides to look for someone else to chew on. With some fresh new dinged-up armor for the road.

Yeah, sure. Sometimes I get nibbled to death by a determined light pilot who knows their ****, or I get swarmed and cut apart. And sometimes I get a good, lucky burn in and harvest a ST or a leg, and the light proceeds to suck. One good, solid whack with that LB-10/X tends to remind them that I'm a fuggin' Nova Cat and they need to step careful around me. Not to mention my buddy Maker, who's made something of an art form out of heavy-goosing Commando kneecaps. Again - he shoots lights, and lights are significantly less of a problem for him.

Yeah, you miss sometimes. A lot of times, to be honest. But you also don't have to hit nearly as hard as a lot of people think they do in order to get light 'Mechs to ********** and let you be. You just have to hit them enough to remind them that you know exactly what they're doing and you ain't having it.


this dude gets it. a lot of you do not shoot at the enemy and it's very noticeable

Edited by pattonesque, 09 June 2021 - 03:03 PM.


#36 Capt Deadpool

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 03:02 PM

View PostCatra Lanis, on 09 June 2021 - 02:02 PM, said:

Leveling 3 lights on my alt. I'll write down some thoughts when I'm done but I can tell you right now that lights don't need any help as a class. Some lights do, but lights are by and large in a pretty ok spot.


Definitely include the metrics you are using in your analysis, e.g. the percentage of players that play lights relative to other classes and your thoughts as to why this is, the average damage lights do compared to other classes, the effectiveness of the average pilot in a light compared to the other classes as to impacting games, whether you believe W/L for the average light pilot is the same, better or worse than pilots who main other weight classes, etc. :)

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 09 June 2021 - 03:51 PM.


#37 Khobai

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 03:33 PM

View PostAnc1ent, on 09 June 2021 - 02:38 PM, said:

Problem is not with lights being too powerful but assaults being too weak. Imo all the assaults should get better pitch angle to be able to deal with ankle biters and armor quirks, those that already do have armor quirks should have slightly better ones... ofc matchmaker would have to be optimized to equalize their numbers which it currently fails at miserably.


I dont think you can really even make assaults pitch down more. if you increased some of their pitch angles more theyd start clipping into their own models.

I think its more the size of assaults thats the problem. theyre too damn big.

A 100 tonner should only be three times bigger than a 35 ton jenner because its three times the weight. But a king crab is what like 6 times the size of a jenner? more? its massively overscaled for its weight. its close to twice the size it actually should be.

Since rescaling all the assaults is probably off the table I think we have to look to solutions that have worked in the past for when lights have gotten rowdy. Streaks. Buff streaks back to a point where they can actually threaten light mechs.

Cauldron turned streaks into a dumpster fire weapon because they hate the idea of higher tier players killing lower tier players in lights with lowskill weapons. It was absolutely an agenda.

Streaks are supposed to punish lights for getting too close and prevent lights from being able to anklebite and facehug. Thats their purpose. If they arnt good at their purpose theres no point for them to even exist.

Edited by Khobai, 09 June 2021 - 07:51 PM.


#38 Nightbird

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 03:40 PM

OP is right, lights are OP, should be nerfed.

#39 Capt Deadpool

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 03:49 PM

View PostNine-Ball, on 09 June 2021 - 02:08 PM, said:

Not offensive, just ignorant.

I tend to see it from players like you who think they're the bees-knee.


I mean, you are very free to believe MWO is the most skill-based game of all time if you want, my dude. I doubt we would have seen so many vets leave over the years if that was the case though. I was nowhere near the skill level of even the mediocre pro teams in the games I mentioned, so definitely don't think I am the articulating joints of any splendid beast, let alone the magnificent bee ;) Don't check out what those nutty Koreans are playing though, or the cognitive dissonance could be emotionally overwhelming; the stuff they do requires seemingly supercomputer-level cognition, which why their top players earn million dollar salaries.


#40 Leone

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 03:56 PM

View PostNightbird, on 09 June 2021 - 03:40 PM, said:

OP is right, lights are OP, should be nerfed.

Whaat!? But you actually pilot lights!

I would like to hear where in fact you believe the nerfbat should land.

~Leone





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